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Old 08-29-2018, 04:37 PM   #1
Standing Elk
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Default Another crank shaft pulley question

I believe my pulley is a "one piece". The nut on the end of the crank is tight, however the pulley becomes loose and warbles slightly if I rotate the pulley slightly anti clockwise "looking at the front of the motor". If I rotate it clockwise about 1/4 to 3/8 inch it seems to tighten up or maybe binds up, not sure which. I have only done this by hand and when I rotate it clockwise (by hand) it does not quite close the gap between the notches, maybe to within an 1/8". So what do I do here? If tightening it until the notches will not allow it to go any further is the answer then what is the best way / tool to use to grip the pulley? Thanks
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:42 PM   #2
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

The most probable reason the pulley nut cannot be tightened enough to keep the pulley from slipping is because the nut is not tightening against the pulley; rather, the crankshaft end is sticking out past the pulley slightly. The nut bottoms out against the crankshaft's snout, creating a slight gap between the two. A very common problem with repo pulleys made off-shore a few years ago. The solution is to order the special washer that takes up the gap between the pulley and the crankshaft snout. That will solve your problem
The right size socket or special wrench available from Model A parts vendors helps get that nut extra tight by using the starter to ratchet the nut tighter than you could do it yourself.

Marshall
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Old 08-29-2018, 04:51 PM   #3
divcoone
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

If I understand correctly, you can rotate the pulley without the crank moving. This could only happen if the collar is broken at the key way.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:22 PM   #4
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

What happens over time when a pulley is loose like this is that the notch in the pulley's shank gets enlarged from slapping back and forth upon starting, acceleration, deceleration and even stopping. The crankshaft woodruff key is made of steel, while the pulley is only cast iron, or at least the repo's are. The cast iron will lose every time in a direct back-and forth moving contact like that. I suspect that the pulley's notch has become enlarged, not that the key has sheared. As "divcoone" suggests, the collar might even be split or broken.
The enlarged notch allows the pulley to be rotated slightly, as the OP has expressed. If that's the case, he MAY be able to tighten up the ratchet nut sufficiently to keep the pulley in place, even though the notch is enlarged. He'd really have tighten the heck out of it, though. It would be far better to simply install a new ONE PIECE pulley to avoid possibly shattering the one that's been slopping around long enough to wallow out the notch. The metal has been fatigued by doing this over time, so it could possibly let go. A new balanced pulley is cheap insurance when one considers how much a new radiator and hood will cost when/if the pulley explodes and takes them out with it. Or worse, it lets loose while the hood is open and people are standing next to the car. Cast iron is not very strong and can easily be broken, especially if has been stressed. A word to the wise...
Marshall

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 08-29-2018 at 08:10 PM. Reason: "sufficiently' instead of "sufficient"
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

If i remember right but another cause of the crankshaft end being "too long" and the nut tightening against it and not the pulley is the front oil slinger wasnt put on correct?
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut View Post
The right size socket or special wrench available from Model A parts vendors helps get that nut extra tight by using the starter to ratchet the nut tighter than you could do it yourself.

Marshall
Are you suggesting to use the starter motor to tighten the ratchet nut?
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Old 08-29-2018, 10:41 PM   #7
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

It works best when backing out a stubborn ratchet nut. Using a long 1/2" ratchet and the appropriate size socket (note: different size Model A ratchet nuts require different size sockets!), you lay the ratchet inside the front crossmember recess on the driver's side. Set the ratchet to "remove" and while holding the breaker bar against the crossmember floor so that it doesn't jump, have a helper tap the starter rod a couple times. The torque of the engine will break the most stubborn ratchet nut loose. I about flipped in 1968 when the local Model A curmudgeon showed me how to do this!
To tighten a ratchet nut, follow the same set up procedure, except now you will set the ratchet to "tighten". Be especially careful to lightly tap the starter rod when tightening the nut because you don't want to jam the engine. One or two taps should do it after you have manually tightened the nut as much as you can.
Marshall

Last edited by Marshall V. Daut; 08-29-2018 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 08-29-2018, 11:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

I agree on several of these points: as noted, the pulley could be broken or cracked (same thing), or the nut could be bottoming out - also, the key way could be 'wallowed' out as well.
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Old 08-30-2018, 12:48 AM   #9
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

To the o.p.: Further to an earlier post, I have been fighting this same problem for a while, and now have my own fractured-pulley graveyard. First I had just a visible crack in the pulley (left), and replaced that with a new standard re-pop pulley. That fared even worse, resulting in fracturing (center). Uninterested in having to remove the radiator to solve this problem again, I then tried a two-piece pulley (right), and tightened the unholy heck out of the ratchet nut, and also used thread-locker. As can be seen, that still didn't do the trick. Finally, I used a washer referred to by Mr. Daut, together with a fourth (not pictured) two-piece pulley. This is now on my car, but I _again_ had the same problem after about 100 miles. (I noticed from the ammeter that no charging was occurring while driving - the ratchet nut had come so far loose that the pulley was not turning at all). More thread-locker, an additional washer, and much more tightening, and I'm OK now for about 300 miles. Fingers crossed for now, but I feel like I'm cursed.
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Old 08-30-2018, 08:24 AM   #10
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

Thanks everyone I will have a closer look at it on Monday.
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Old 08-30-2018, 08:35 AM   #11
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

Quote:
Originally Posted by apbright View Post
To the o.p.: Further to an earlier post, I have been fighting this same problem for a while, and now have my own fractured-pulley graveyard. First I had just a visible crack in the pulley (left), and replaced that with a new standard re-pop pulley. That fared even worse, resulting in fracturing (center). Uninterested in having to remove the radiator to solve this problem again, I then tried a two-piece pulley (right), and tightened the unholy heck out of the ratchet nut, and also used thread-locker. As can be seen, that still didn't do the trick. Finally, I used a washer referred to by Mr. Daut, together with a fourth (not pictured) two-piece pulley. This is now on my car, but I _again_ had the same problem after about 100 miles. (I noticed from the ammeter that no charging was occurring while driving - the ratchet nut had come so far loose that the pulley was not turning at all). More thread-locker, an additional washer, and much more tightening, and I'm OK now for about 300 miles. Fingers crossed for now, but I feel like I'm cursed.
Your last few sentences would indicate that you don't have a key in there. The pulley can't turn freely if a key is in place. Only without a key, can the nut unscrewed, and the pulley then turn on the crankshaft. What am I missing here?
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Old 08-30-2018, 10:46 AM   #12
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

The pulley shares the key with the crank timing gear. The key must have been in
to break the other pulleys.


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Old 08-30-2018, 10:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut View Post
It works best when backing out a stubborn ratchet nut. Using a long 1/2" ratchet and the appropriate size socket (note: different size Model A ratchet nuts require different size sockets!), you lay the ratchet inside the front crossmember recess on the driver's side. Set the ratchet to "remove" and while holding the breaker bar against the crossmember floor so that it doesn't jump, have a helper tap the starter rod a couple times. The torque of the engine will break the most stubborn ratchet nut loose. I about flipped in 1968 when the local Model A curmudgeon showed me how to do this!
To tighten a ratchet nut, follow the same set up procedure, except now you will set the ratchet to "tighten". Be especially careful to lightly tap the starter rod when tightening the nut because you don't want to jam the engine. One or two taps should do it after you have manually tightened the nut as much as you can.
Marshall
Since the starter is still turning the engine the same direction, it can't tighten the nut, but I use the same way as you listed to loosen the nut.


You could lay the ratchet on the right frame rail, shift the tranny to 3rd, then push the car backwards to tighten the nut.
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Old 08-30-2018, 11:28 AM   #14
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

You're RIGHT, Tom,
A Friend replaced the starter on a VW Bug & it wouldn't start. They gave him the WRONG starter, that turned the OPPOSITE WAY!
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Old 08-30-2018, 11:56 AM   #15
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

Good catch on the tightening procedure, Tom. Something didn't seem right as I was writing that passage, but I didn't proofread carefully enough. I think the procedure for breaking a tough ratchet nut loose will be more useful for most guys than tightening the nut anyway.
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Old 08-30-2018, 02:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

This might be of interest to you from Snyder's....

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/c...aft-pulley-351

I didn't see the box end offset wrench for turning the motor over at the ratchet, w/o using the hand crank, from Bert's, Snyder's, or Brattons. I have one and use it quite often. They must not offer it anymore.

Snyder's also offers a Riley steel pulley looks like it is graduated for timing, kind of pricey at $118. This other would fit the bill.

Question. Was that pulley originally steel from the factory or was it cast?? A friend broke the one on our '29 Tudor in 1972, he was wanting to hand crank the car and didn't have the notches lined up in the pulley and 'snap'. Now that I think back it must have been cast because the local welding shop brazed it back together. God help us all, I ordered a two piece from Rick's (that is what we were doing in 1972), I recall it was made in Argentina. Wonder of looking back wonders it fit fine and is still going today on that car. I put close to 10,000 miles on the Tudor after that incident before I sold it.

Last edited by Jeff/Illinois; 08-30-2018 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: Another crank shaft pulley question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corley View Post
Your last few sentences would indicate that you don't have a key in there. The pulley can't turn freely if a key is in place. Only without a key, can the nut unscrewed, and the pulley then turn on the crankshaft. What am I missing here?
The two-piece pulley (indeed the exact one Mr. Jeff/Illinois posted a link to) has a 'shaft' and a 'pulley' part. There is about a 1/8" mating step between these two. What had happened was that the ratchet nut had backed out by more than this 1/8 of an inch. This permitted the 'pulley' part to spin freely on the crankshaft, even while the 'shaft' part remained rotationally locked by the key.

As it happens, this didn't even represent the greatest extent of ratchet-nut back-out observed on the engine concerned. The center-pictured (in previous post), severly-fractued one-piece pulley received its damage after the ratchet nut had backed out for the full 0.330"-depth of its mating notch to the crankshaft key. It, too, wound up spinning freely on the shaft. This was diagnosed by coolant boil-over, caused by overheating, as a result of no water pump action (in addition to negative battery charge on the ammeter). That plus unholy clanging caused me to make a sudden freeway pullover, for nighttime roadside inspection and ratchet nut tightening.

I'm not sure about this, but I suspect that my observed aggressive ratchet back-out had been caused by uneven compression in the engine, resulting in excessive crankshaft rotational vibration. The uneven compression was finally roost-caused to a bad valve seat, but that's another story.


Separately, regarding "the box end offset wrench for turning the motor over at the ratchet," pardon me if I have misunderstood, but maybe you refer to this kind of wrench (?), seemingly available from (hold your nose) Mac's:

https://www.macsautoparts.com/ford_m...RoCorkQAvD_BwE

Last edited by apbright; 09-02-2018 at 01:55 AM.
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