1933 inner fender question?

[lotsagas4u]

I have started the process of replacing the front fender welting on my 33 coupe. I replaced the damaged frame horns while it is apart. I am having
problems with the gap between the hood and the inner fenders, I am not sure how much gap it had when it was new. There is no adjustment, other than enlarging the mounting holes. This project is becoming a royal pain,

Thank You

[lotsagas4u]

Here are a couple of pix

[FlatheadTed]

This gap is controlled by the Radiater

[lotsagas4u]

The back side

[lotsagas4u]

Ted, how do I adjust it then? Thanks for your help.

[FlatheadTed]

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At least the front ,if the Radiator is cored to long which they often are it would need to be redone ,On at least one car 35 I did I mounted the radiator under the mounts ,not ideal ,it did give me a idea were it should sit .

[FlatheadTed]

The back side , may be to do with the patch panel in the A piller ,see if the other side is the same then maybe slide the hood over to close the gap ,

[FlatheadTed]

Remove the Radiator and see if it comes down ,just few suggestions ,others may chime in .

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by lotsagas4u

The back side

Is the welt possibly too thick across the cowl? DD

[lotsagas4u]

I do have some cowl welt ordered.

[lotsagas4u]

Anyone know the correct height measurement for these radiators?

[DavidG]

What sort of welting do you have on the grille? Also, it appears as though you have tightened the inner fender panel to frame fasteners. Granted that there isn't much wiggle room in those attachments, they should be no more than finger tight until you have finalized the hood, grille, and front fender fit. Last, but not least, how is the fit of the hood tops to the top of the grille? That fit is adjustable through the radiator support rods to the firewall.

[lotsagas4u]

David, here are some more pixIMG_0511.jpg

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[lotsagas4u]

The grill welting came from Mike/third Gen, the radiator rods are adjusted to where the center strip is up against both stops, front and rear.

[DavidG]

Your last group of photos strongly suggests that your radiator is too high and perhaps not forward enough at the bottom. Did the frame repairs that you mention in your first note impact the two gussets in front of the front cross member where the bottom of the radiator is attached?

[David J]

Posted this a few years back but maybe it will help here .
I start with the hood and radiator .

If the radiator is centered and the right height the hood to cowl gaps should be even all the way around .
If the gaps are tighter on the right the radiator needs to move left .
If the gaps are tighter on the left the radiator needs to move right .

MAKE SURE the radiator is level with the cowl !!!!!

If the gaps are wider at the bottom of the hood sides than on top your radiator is too high .
If the gaps are tighter at the bottom of the hood sides than on top your radiator is low .

There will be more but let us know what you have on this part .

Like already stated this is your foundation and all else works off this and a center hinge slightly long can really ball up the works .

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

Here are a few pix of the radiator mounts, the radiator mounting holes are a little large.

[David J]

Need to see how the hood fits the cowl . That is ground zero on these fronts . All else matches to that .

[lotsagas4u]

David, will get some more pix tomorrow, center strip is 33 inches long.

Thanks for your help.

[DavidG]

It appears from your latest group of photos that you have '33 gussets in front of a '34 front cross member. I do not know if that could be contributing to the too high radiator. While it is likely the photos being misleading, it also looks like the radiator mounting areas on the gussets are not perfectly horizontal. If you take a long straight edge would it sit perfectly flat across both radiator mounting surfaces?

[lotsagas4u]

David, I will check on it tomorrow,

Thank You

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

DavidJ, the radiator left/right adjustment did wonders, looks better than it ever has. Still have a wider gap on drivers side grill. Gaps on bottom are closer than than ever have been. It seems as if the center strip is a tad long, if you look at radiator cap pix.
DavidG, the radiator gussets are level with a bubble level, I forgot to take pix,
Thanks to both of you for your help

[DavidG]

Some improvement, but ....... What did you do?


Ignore this as I wrote it while you were adding yours to your photos.

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

A couple more

[lotsagas4u]

DavidG, I think the new frame horns turned out great.

[David J]

Agree on the hood hinge .
Take baby steps shortening it as it is hard to lengthen .

Looks like the left lower hood to cowl gap is wider that the right ???
If yes that would indicate the radiator is tilted slightly right on top .

Check level of pads to level of cowl .
THIS HAS TO BE RIGHT or you will not get perfect gaps .

Make sure you get the hood-cowl right before addressing anything else .

[lotsagas4u]

DavidJ, how do I shorten the center strip, grind, file, cut?

I do have some new, cowl lacing ordered by the way.

[David J]

Originally Posted by lotsagas4u

DavidJ, how do I shorten the center strip, grind, file, cut?

I do have some new, cowl lacing ordered by the way.

Grind till close then file .

Get the hood-cowl right first .
That is the foundation all else matches to .

[lotsagas4u]

DavidJ, level of pads to level of cowl? You lost me here??????

[David J]

Originally Posted by lotsagas4u

DavidJ, level of pads to level of cowl? You lost me here??????

Radiator mounting pads are level as you stated .

You need to check the level of the cowl .
Checking the cowl is best done multiple ways .
Are the radiator brace rods level ?
Is the transition point where the firewall mounting flange kicks forward and down from vertical level ?
Lay the level on the cowl vent and make sure it is EXACTLY the same height above the belt line .

All 3 of these checks should be the same and if not EXACTLY the same as the radiator pads you need to make the pads match the cowl . It can be done shimming the cowl also but door gaps will suffer .

This is important .

[lotsagas4u]

Wow, I just ran out and checked radiator brace rods, they are off, half a bubble on level. No wonder I couldn't get all of this lined up.

[DavidG]

Go carefully as in your latest photos the gap between the hood top and the cowl top is too tight. I'd get that right before even considering shortening the hinge center strip.

[lotsagas4u]

DavidG, I do have some new cowl lacing ordered, may wait until I get that before going any further.
Thanks for your help.

[DavidG]

I go back to your mentioning the frame requiring repairs, unless those were performed on a frame fixture, it is possible that the radiator mounting gussets are not aligned level-wise with the cowl (you already checked for their horizontal-ness) or that your measurement of level-ness at the back of the rods isn't result of other factors such as the rods not being completely bottomed out in their firewall brackets or that the firewall brackets themselves are not exactly where they should be on the firewall (small variations in manufacturing could easily explain half a bubble). Further, checking the level-ness of the cowl vent might not be reliable as your cowl vent does fit in the cowl as well as it should judging from your photos.


You are striving for three things: first that the gaps on the hood sides front and back are the same on both sides of the hood. That depends largely on the equality of the distance from the grille sides to the cowl sides and is adjustable via the rods as indicated above, but also to a minor extent at the bottom as the bolts usually aren't a tight fit in the supporting gussets. Second, that you have appropriate equal gaps at the front and back of each hood top panels and the tops sit down level with the cowl top and the raised area of the grille forward of the radiator cap. Third, that the raised molding on the lower edge of the hood tops lines up with the belt molding on the cowl.



The height of the radiator and its level-ness relative to that of the cowl, even if centered side to side, has a direct impact on those gaps both fore and aft and up and down as will as the molding alignment.



Is your stainless hinge strip an original or a reproduction? Were any repairs made to the areas of the hood tops and hood sides where they mate up? Are you confident that the hood top panels are as far forward on the stainless strip as they will go?

[lotsagas4u]

DavidG, as far as I know the hinge strip is original, no repairs to hood/sides that I know of.

As far as i know, it has never been on a frame machine, the horns were a welded mess, with a couple of pieces of angle iron, to hold the front bumper.
I have a couple of pix of that mess, will load shortly.
It is quite a job to get this right, I never thought it would be this difficult

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

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[DavidG]

Okay, I note that you have the early '33 version of the bumper brackets and the nature of the repairs suggests it arose from a collision. The later version increased the length of the inside of the brackets and significantly increased the distance between the two mounting holes. All that matters not in the subject at hand except to the extent that said collision gave rise to not-easy-to-perceive distortions rearward in the frame (the energy of the collision had to be dissipated somewhere further along the frame rails). Regardless, your objective is to get the radiator/grille assembly in sync with the cowl to the best possible extent. As David J suggests, maybe this may involve pads of different thicknesses beneath the feet of the radiator.


I note in the top photo of your latest two that the key holes in the radiator side shows evidence of damage. If those holes are distorted in any why they can affect the fit of the grille on the radiator and even if the radiator is perfectly aligned with the cowl, the grille may not be enjoy the same alignment.


Yes, it is quite a job, even with cars than have never had any frame damage or had any parts replaced, because of the number of variables involved. Take them one at a time and you'll get through it. This hobby requires large measures of patience and perseverance.

[DavidG]

I should have added that given that your hinge molding is original, I would not shorten it, even as a last resort, as the root cause(s) for your fit problems lie elsewhere.

[David J]

Some good points and agree don't cut the hinge yet .

Stop by and we'll put it on one of my favorite toys in the pics .
It , 8 plumbobs a couple tapes and 4 laser levels and we'll know what it needs pronto .
And be able to fix it .

That said you need to line the front edge of the hood tops with the center strip . Your right is back a little and your left is back quite a bit more .
This is causing a false reading on gaps .

Dou you have pads under the radiator ?
If yes take the left one out and see the affect .
Should help .

May well need the mounting pads tapped down . If you do this do it with many lighter blows and support it directly under the crossmember to control where it flexes .
Not a full hit with a 15 pounder .

If your cowl vent door is not fitting well open it and check the cowl top itself . Better than the door anyway .

[rockfla]

Thank you DavidG & DavidJ for all of the "expert" direction here, I have copied and pasted ALL of your instructions for when my 33 comes to its time for restoration. Thank you once again.

[David J]

I do not have the grille to radiator brackets in when fitting this stage up .
DavidG mentioned damage to your radiator sides so I would be sure to get the 4 brackets out .

Address the fit of those at a later stage .
Doing a little repair to the radiator sides will not change the fit of the hood-grille-cowl .

[lotsagas4u]

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DavidJ, DavidG, cold here this morning, hopefully it will warm some today, will tear it back down to radiator, then remove drivers side pad first, will check level of brace rods, you could write a book on these stages,

As said THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

Ok, got it stripped down again, removed drivers side/left pad, you can see level on front frame is good, level on cowl is slightly off.

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

DavidJ, rechecked cowl with door open, cowl is level

[David J]

Just got home . Looks promising . Lets try fitting the hood and make sure the hood center strip is flush with the hood tops in front .

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

DavidJ, my helper left early today. The radiator looks low to me, the support rods are fairly straight, but still show a low radiator. What is a sure way to check at this point?

[David J]

Low radiator will make too much gap on the hood tops and tight at the bottom of the hood sides .

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

Made some real progress today, drivers side needs a bit more adjustment.

BIG THANKS TO DAVIDJ

[David J]

Switched to phone conversations but what is being addressed here is radiator placement . Getting pretty decent but the hood tops look to be back slightly compared to the center hinge . Again this gives a false reading on gaps .

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

DavidJ, these were before I bent the left gusset down, phone charging, will load some latest pix later tonight.


THANK YOU

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

The left gusset was a little higher than the right, was able to bend it to match, looks better. Needs a little more tweeking, thanks again for your help.

[David J]

How are the body beads lining up ?
Pic one in post 23 shows the RH looking pretty good .
Pic one in post 40 shows the LH being quite high .
Is it still like that ?

Has this car had lower cowl sections replaced ?

Looks like a little more back on the left rad rod may be needed also .

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

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David, bending the left gusset really helped. The beads look better than ever, I don't know about the lower cowl sections, car hasn't been touched in 45 years.

[David J]

Looks to be getting pretty close .

Time to try the inner skirts .

Give me a call Doug when you get a chance .

[David J]

Doug can give a better account of what he has done as he is doing it .
I am just a coach .

That said what we have been working with is the radiator support rods and radiator mounting pads .

As you can see there is much to be gained by messing with these adjustments .

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

Here are a few more after today's work, had problems with my radiator/grill brackets. Looks better than it ever has,

BIG THANKS AGAIN TO DAVIDJ
Quite the coach he is.

My fingers are sore after taking this apart many times,

[lotsagas4u]

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[lotsagas4u]

Went ahead and installed lower radiator hoses before the inner fenders. This project requires LOTS of patience/adjustments. I am very pleased with the results.

[David J]

Originally Posted by lotsagas4u

BIG THANKS AGAIN TO DAVIDJ

Doug , You are welcome .

You did ALL THE WORK !!!

Like I told you the frame rack in the pics has been mine for 24 years .

Many things learned on it apply here also

[tomcarman]

Originally Posted by lotsagas4u

Went ahead and installed lower radiator hoses before the inner fenders. This project requires LOTS of patience/adjustments. I am very pleased with the results.

Thanks for posting the results. It's wonderful to see a conclusion to a process and the step by step tutorial to achieve the goal.

[lotsagas4u]

Tomcarman, thanks for your comments, still have a way to go, fenders, welting. Weather here is warming, that's a big help.

[johnboy34]

I hopefully can get my 34 that close! Good job!