Fiber Timing Gears

[Hoop]

Bought a couple of 44t press-on fiber timing gears on line. Advertised as "Westinghouse NORS" .... BUT arrived with no markings other than one with "HooF". They were not in their original boxes.

Does anyone have experience with unmarked gears? Want to check here before turning them down.

Thank you.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I had one of the repro fiber gears fail on my 35 in less than 2k miles. The material was definitely not like an original Ford fiber gear. The teeth all wore to sharp points before 4/5 stripped completely off. The engine shutdown just like turning the ignition switch off. Replaced with an aluminum press on gear about 25k miles ago, and no more problems. NOS fiber or aluminum is all I would consider using on any of my engines.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Hoop.It's hard to install those cam gears with no dot on the gear because you cain't turn the cam. If the valves were out so you can turn the cam it would be easier. I'll tell you how I would do it. Turn the crank so N0 ONE and No. SIX piston is top dead center, NOW install NO.6 valves with no springs, make sure the fuel pump push rod is out, now the cam will turn with your fingers, hold down the 2 valves with your fingers, turn the cam counter clock ways and watch the 2 valves go up and down, (rock the 2 valves so both valves are open just off the seat). Now hold the cam gear up against the cam with one of the cam theeth in the crank gear. Mark that thooth. there is usaually a scribe mark in the center of the cam gear. With the gear pressed on turn the crank back and forth with the no.6 valves rocking and piston top dead. Walt

[Hoop]

Walt, My apologies. I wasn't clear.

"No marks" ... I meant no manufacturers name to identify where they came from.

They do have index marks. I have Westinghouse gears and they are clearly marked with the name. These do no have any name or part number BUT the seller says they are Westinghouse.

Obviously I do not trust them ... however if someone on here knows that Westinghouse also came without identifying labels, ... looks like they are going back.

Thanks to you and John for the help.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Hoop, I still have that failed gear. I used it as part of the tooling I made to replace press on timing gears without having to remove the camshaft. So, I can check to see if it has any manufacturers marking later this week.

[JM 35 Sedan]

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Pictures of failed repro fiber timing gear @ 2,000 miles. Manufacturer/ID marking: "Westinghouse Micarta"......

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

Pictures of failed repro fiber timing gear @ 2,000 miles. Manufacturer/ID marking: "Westinghouse Micarta"......

YIKES........(!).......Westinghouse used to make aircraft propellers out of that same "MICARTA" plastic crap! Maybe that's why they moved-on to jet propulsion. DD

[JM 35 Sedan]

I'm sure there were different types/blends/grades/fillers used by Westinghouse in their Micarta material, but whatever they used to mold this timing gear was a very poor selection. The internal grain structure and filler material looks nothing like what was used on the original fiber timing gears.
During my working career we used a lot of Micarta material for electrical insulatiion of current carrying parts. It worked very well in those applications.

[GB SISSON]

Maybe it's a dumb question, but why were timing gears made from a soft material such as fiber or aluminum? Trannys had/have hard metal on hard metal with great force involved. Was it to save the crank gear?

[flatford8]

I think it was noise reduction.......Mark

[richard crow]

jm did you soak the gear in oil before you put it in.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by richard crow

jm did you soak the gear in oil before you put it in.

No, but there was oil feeding into the cam gear area from the pressure release valve in the lifter valley, plus the crankshaft timing gear was riding in oil and feeding oil up to the fiber timing gear.
Was there a Ford Service Specification instucting repairman to soak fiber timing gears in oil prior to installation?

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by flatford8

I think it was noise reduction.......Mark

Funny, because I saw, I think in the Frank Oddo book that someone was making square cut timing gears so they would produce the nostalgic 'gear whine'.... I admit I like certain kinds of old vehicle noise but of course the public was sick of noisy and smelly contraptions by the 40's.

[JM 35 Sedan]

As followup information for Hoop, and anyone else who may have an interest, I am posting pictures of the early Ford aluminum timing gears that I have. Hoop was wondering what markings, other than timing marks required for proper alignment, could be found on these gears. I found manufacturers identification markings that were cast in the front surface of ten of the eleven aluminum timing gears that I own.

.Note: manufacturers ID markings can be seen in most of these photos by clicking on each photo, and then opening the picture in a new window, and enlarging the image.

[Hoop]

John, great work. Terrific reference.

Many thanks.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Maybe it's a dumb question, but why were timing gears made from a soft material such as fiber or aluminum? Trannys had/have hard metal on hard metal with great force involved. Was it to save the crank gear?

There are actually three reasons why they used softer materials for the driven gear. One was quiet operation as was already mentioned. Another was that the SAE 20W20 that was used for motor oil was not an adequate lubricant for hard face gears. Transmission gears used a mild to high level of extra pressure or EP additive to keep them in good condition. The last factor was kind of as a safety fuse in case there was a bind up in the valves, guides, or camshaft power train that might do further damage. The micarta cam gear would fail but possible save other related engine components. In later years FoMoCo changed over to Nylon for some applications.

Micarta or glass reinforced phenolic plastic is still being used in the aviation industry to a fair degree for protection against abrasion wear in cable type control systems. The little pulley sheaves are micarta and a lot of fairlead blocks where the cabled pass through bulkheads are micarta. You can still purchase the stuff in sheets of different thicknesses and rods where you can cut or machine it in to different shapes. It is also used in some aluminum sandwich composite structural members as a honeycomb core strengthener. Nylon and Delron have replaced it to some extent for abrasion appliactions but not completely.

[Ian NZ]

I have a Cast Iron Timing Gear which I removed from a V8 engine several decades ago, It would be interesting to know what model engine it is off it could be Canadian there are markings on the gear. I would say it would be noisy.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Ian NZ

I have a Cast Iron Timing Gear which I removed from a V8 engine several decades ago, It would be interesting to know what model engine it is off it could be Canadian there are markings on the gear. I would say it would be noisy.

Those 'Canadians' are frequently noisy

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Ian NZ

I have a Cast Iron Timing Gear which I removed from a V8 engine several decades ago, It would be interesting to know what model engine it is off it could be Canadian there are markings on the gear. I would say it would be noisy.

I have heard about steel/cast iron timing gears used on Ford flathead engines in past posts here. It would be interesting to know what manufacturers markings are actually on this gear, and why they were made of this material. Could they have been produced during the war years when other materials were needed for the war efforts?

[Ian NZ]

Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan

I have heard about steel/cast iron timing gears used on Ford flathead engines in past posts here. It would be interesting to know what manufacturers markings are actually on this gear, and why they were made of this material. Could they have been produced during the war years when other materials were needed for the war efforts?

This cast iron Timing gear has a the part number 6256 & 4 & 21A and it looks like a M stamped on it. I did dismantle some army motors at that time and someone said it could have come out of a Bren Gun carrier motor.

[fordscript]

I have a couple of those cast iron gears, and they both came out of ex military engines.