59AB Cooling System Advice Needed from the Experts (not an overheating issue)

[1931 flamingo]

It sounds like you don't have a "closed" system?? My A used to puke water until I added a "sealed" puke tank.
Paul in CT
My new 40 with dual 97"s, hi comp heads, duals, no stats, temp gauge rises to the middle or just above at 65, nothing out the o/flow. FWIW

[Ross F-1]

Water expands about 5% from ambient to 180 deg. So if your cooling system holds 20 qts, your catch bottle needs to be able to take an extra quart when cold.

[anothercarguy]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

It sounds like you don't have a "closed" system?? My A used to puke water until I added a "sealed" puke tank.
Paul in CT
My new 40 with dual 97"s, hi comp heads, duals, no stats, temp gauge rises to the middle or just above at 65, nothing out the o/flow. FWIW

Interesting, so how do you seal the puke can? I wonder if it would exceed 7 psi in the "closed system? If so, might it damage the rad? Interested in hearing more.

[anothercarguy]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

Water expands about 5% from ambient to 180 deg. So if your cooling system holds 20 qts, your catch bottle needs to be able to take an extra quart when cold.

That is pretty much how mine was designed and made...which is why I was shocked at the gallon I lost in a couple hours of driving. Not sure if I had kept going whether it would have kept puking, I chickened out when I saw the loss, and feared the worst (head gasket of block crack) so I didn't want to hurt the motor until I had a chance to diagnose the issue

[Ziggster]

If the cap is working properly and is rated correctly, it will open at 223F (50/50 mix) plus 3F for each psi. So for 7.5 psi, that is 22.5F above 223F, for a total of 245.5F. So, if you have coolant flowing into your overflow container it is either going beyond that temp, or there is too much "coolant" in the system. Also, when I look at the location of the cap vs the top of the upper rad tank, it looks lower. This would suggest to me that you have air in the system, and we all know what happens to a gas when heated vs a liquid. Could you have air trapped in the system that is artificially causing the coolant pressure to be higher than expected resulting in the cap opening? Also, the coolant overflow reservoir must have the overflow port connected to a tube that permits the coolant to be drawn back into the system when cooling down. To work properly, the bottom of that tube must always be submerged otherwise air will be drawn back into the system.

[anothercarguy]

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Originally Posted by Ziggster

If the cap is working properly and is rated correctly, it will open at 223F (50/50 mix) plus 3F for each psi. So for 7.5 psi, that is 22.5F above 223F, for a total of 245.5F. So, if you have coolant flowing into your overflow container it is either going beyond that temp, or there is too much "coolant" in the system. Also, when I look at the location of the cap vs the top of the upper rad tank, it looks lower. This would suggest to me that you have air in the system, and we all know what happens to a gas when heated vs a liquid. Could you have air trapped in the system that is artificially causing the coolant pressure to be higher than expected resulting in the cap opening? Also, the coolant overflow reservoir must have the overflow port connected to a tube that permits the coolant to be drawn back into the system when cooling down. To work properly, the bottom of that tube must always be submerged otherwise air will be drawn back into the system.

I think you're on to something with the filler neck being lower than the top of the tank introducing too much air and hence frothing into the coolant at higher rpms. Thanks for that idea/thought!

The coolant recovery tank insides are constructed correctly, but I was starting with zero fluid in the tank thinking any overfill of the rad would land in the recovery tank and would self regulate to the level it wanted/needed.

I was talking with an old time hot rodder/friend who said back in the day, they would drill the waterpump impellers to make them less efficient at higher rpms. Anyone ever hear of that? Any details?

[tubman]

Drilling the impellors may have worked for an all out race engine, but it's not a good idea for a street engine. Back in the day, we did a lot of "things the racers did" in the hopes that it would help, but most of the time they just caused more problems.

[anothercarguy]

Originally Posted by JSeery

I wouldn't start taking anything apart unless you are sure there is an issue. In my opinion you are running the engine to cool, especially with a pressure cap. I would want it up in the 190 -195 range. If you run into the foam issue again I would try stright water and see if the antifreeze is the problem.

So, I emptied the cooling system of fluids to take the rad out for modifications (raising the height of the filler neck (and I may even have an bleeder fitting installed at the highest point). While I was at, I tested the 180 degree thermostats. They started to open at 155 degrees and were fully open at 160 degrees. Based on this, I would say the S/W gauge is accurate, and I need another pair of thermostats on re-assembly (I'm thinking 192).

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by tubman

Drilling the impellors may have worked for an all out race engine, but it's not a good idea for a street engine. Back in the day, we did a lot of "things the racers did" in the hopes that it would help, but most of the time they just caused more problems.

When you run 20 minutes "balls out" ( a hit/miss term btw) and shut off. Yep.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted by anothercarguy

So, I emptied the cooling system of fluids to take the rad out for modifications (raising the height of the filler neck (and I may even have an bleeder fitting installed at the highest point). While I was at, I tested the 180 degree thermostats. They started to open at 155 degrees and were fully open at 160 degrees. Based on this, I would say the S/W gauge is accurate, and I need another pair of thermostats on re-assembly (I'm thinking 192).

sw gauges look great, but they have been less then accurate for a while. My experience anyway and lots of threads on it. The Old gauges peg well. I have two new water in my 38 truck left/right bank. Both off 20 degrees low, confirmed with infra red. Infra red is correct, I just do the simple math.


The cheap chrome shitty looking one from a national provider on the 36 is within a few degrees. Hate to say it.




.

[joe 1950]

i had somewhat the same problem on my 50 cpe always puking up a little coolant when shut down changed to 160 t-stats and helped a little bit but then the rad.started to leak took it to my rad shop was told not worth fixing order a new aluminum one that fit perfect temperature came way down never had any problems since how good is your rad. hope this helps

[FlatheadTed]

Not sure but its been said before ,the early Flatheads run with the fluid down and a air gap of about 2,1/2" =2-3 pints ,tha air in the systom never botheres it .I run 60 states (Experimental )it opens at a colder temperature but it doesn't mean it stays at that can go higher as the motor heats up but it wont go below that . A possible plugged Radiater will cause it to pump out the over flow though more so if your have high flow pumps ,it may cause a partial vacuum low pressure zone as the pumps try to suck from the bottom of the radiator (water boiling point is lowered with pressure ) farther exaggerating the problem .As previous said water expands with heat the hotter it gets the worse it gets ,That's what drives a steam train expanded water ,!

[aussie merc]

new thermostats may need to check several till you get a pair thats actually close . Curiosity how long since you re-torqued the heads a little added temp may have opened up a slight leak. When you refill leave the bottle empty and fill the rad run up to temp and see how much is in the bottle add a pint and let it cool leave o'night and recheck took 4 goes to stablise mine

[anothercarguy]

I re-torqued the heads earlier this week...didnt get any movement on any of the bolts.

I'm taking the rad in next week to be checked over and further modified.

[rick r]

Had the same problem on my 8BA. Foaming is caused by worn water pump seals. When running, the inlet side of the pump is under av slight vacuum. The worn seals allow air to be sucked into the system, causing the foaming. When the engine is shut off, there is no vacuum being created and the seals re seat, thus no coolant leakage. If you want more info on the subject, e mail me at [email protected] or call me at 705 439 2567 or 705 934 4434(cell)

[anothercarguy]

Originally Posted by rick r

Had the same problem on my 8BA. Foaming is caused by worn water pump seals. When running, the inlet side of the pump is under av slight vacuum. The worn seals allow air to be sucked into the system, causing the foaming. When the engine is shut off, there is no vacuum being created and the seals re seat, thus no coolant leakage. If you want more info on the subject, e mail me at [email protected] or call me at 705 439 2567 or 705 934 4434(cell)

Thanks for the reply...my waterpumps have about 500 miles on them. I'm hoping that's not enough miles to wear them out.

[JWL]

It seems irregular that the 7 lb. cap would pass such a quantity of material at the temperature values reported. Until the cap sealing is actually verified It seems suspicious. Verifying means an actual test as used in service.

Further, surely the amount of coolant being installed will give proper indication of whether or not a large quantity of air is present in the system. If there is a question about thermostats hampering the fill or interfering in any way just remove them for a proper test.

[flatford8]

Not sure if this has anything to do with your problem. Is the coolant recovery tank blocking air flow through the top corner of the radiator?.......Mark

[anothercarguy]

Originally Posted by JWL

It seems irregular that the 7 lb. cap would pass such a quantity of material at the temperature values reported. Until the cap sealing is actually verified It seems suspicious. Verifying means an actual test as used in service.

Further, surely the amount of coolant being installed will give proper indication of whether or not a large quantity of air is present in the system. If there is a question about thermostats hampering the fill or interfering in any way just remove them for a proper test.

When I take the rad in next week, I'm going to ask them pressure test the rad and cap as a unit, as well flow test the core. I don't think the thermostats were causing air pockets as I've drilled an 1/8" hole in each (around the rim) as an air bleed. The block and rad fill and drain without any surging and gurgling.

With the coolant at or below the bottom of the upper radiator inlet tubes (needed it at this level to perform the CO in the coolant test with engine running), I drained 4 gallons of coolant from the block and rad. I estimate that it would take another couple quarts to bring it up to the level I first filled and operated.

My current theory, after speaking with the guy that followed me down the highway (he said that it would puke only at the top of the sustained climbs up the hills), with the engine working a little harder, it gained a bit more heat (as confirmed by the 5-10 degree increase in temp on the gauge). This caused the air in the aerated coolant (due to the filler neck being about 2" too low) to expand and build pressure sufficient to overcome the rad cap and flow into the coolant recovery tank. Ultimately culminating in too much coolant in the tank and flowing out the overflow of the recovery tank.

Another possibility is that the rad core is unable to flow at the rate the pumps are capable of pumping at 2600-2700 rpm. But the fact that this was only happening at the the top of the sustained hill climbs seems to bring in a the engine working as a variable.

So, my current plan is to have the rad checked and modified as discussed above (and in previous posts). I do want to continue using antifreeze/water mix as the coolant (I like the anti corrosion properties, I like the increased boiling temp and of course the anti-freezing qualities), but I'm going to use some sort of Water Wetter product (maybe Redline) as an additive. I understand that the way this type of product works is that at a molecular level it allows the molecules to more tightly bond together making it more difficult for aeration to begin as the coolant is heated. I don't have any experience with this type of product, but it isn't an expensive experiment.

[anothercarguy]

Originally Posted by flatford8

Not sure if this has anything to do with your problem. Is the coolant recovery tank blocking air flow through the top corner of the radiator?.......Mark

The coolant recovery tank is not tight to the core (it's spaced off by about an inch) and I run with a fan and without hood sides so the rad seems to be able to get lots of air through it. Thanks for your input to the issue.

Again, I add that I really appreciate all of your thoughts and time spent to respond.