reliable fuel gauge? anyone?

[johndee138]

I don't know about you guys, but I've been thorough a number of fuel gauge senders that were "supposed" to work correctly but didn't. At this point I'm willing to look at anything that can be regarded as reliable and the appearance be damned. I can hide the gauge face somewhere and even if its in the trunk, at least it will let me know where I stand.
I have 1 1/2" oil pressure and water temp gauges mounted in the glove box and drive with the door open to monitor those circuits.
Suggestions anyone?

[tubman]

My first suggestion would be to familiarize yourself with the "KIng-Seeley" system and how it works if you are not already familiar with it. Fords used this system, which is quite unlike anything else and "regular" sending units (yes, even those supplied by some Ford parts vendors) won't work right.

[40cpe]

Several gauge manufacturers offer after market fuel gauges. The important piece of buying is to be sure that the gauge and sender are compatible. The ohm rating of the gauge must coincide with he ohm rating of the sender. If you know the ohm range of the sender in your tank, you might shop for gauges with the same rating. If you want to match manufacturer of the gauges you have in your car, you might have to buy a sender to match. I have Sunpro gauges for Fuel, Temp, Oil Pressure, Volts, and two for Temperature in my '38 and am confident I get reliable readings. If your car is 6V your selection might not be so plentiful.

[JayChicago]

And the float arm on a universal aftermarket sender needs to be adjusted to properly reflect the tank it’s going into.

[19Fordy]

johndee: Your frustration is understood. Please post photos of the parts in question and the year, make and model of your vehicle. Some Fordbarner might have what you need or be able to offer a solution.
Do you still have the OEM sending unit and gauge?

[TJ]

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If you are going to use an aftermarket gauge and sender you will need an adapter to adapt the sender to the stock tank. Get the sender from the same manufacturer as the gauge. Put the gas gauge in the cowl panel so you can see it from the driver's seat. I don't know if you are 6 or 12 volt. If 12 volt you are good to go with the aftermarket fuel gauge. If you are still 6 volt I would try to find an original sender and have it rebuilt. That way you use your stock gauge and don't have to add any more gauges.

[tubman]

Aftermarket stuff? Sorry about the "King-Seeley" remark; I thought this was an early Ford forum.

I don't speak "Street Rod", so I'll bow out.

[56markII]

Sometimes you don't have any options other than after market! After 35 years of having a weeping fuel tank and from the fitting for the fuel line due to some idiot over torquing the fitting and cracking the soldered joint on my 50 Mercury I saw an exact (except for the sender grrrrrr!) reproduction from Tanks Inc. This makes me shake my head because the banana in tech support said " I have info from a reliable source that a 75 ohm sender is required". My comment is your source is BS and 30-40 ohms is proper because my system is stock 6 volts and running perfect but thanks to your bright idea of not manufacturing it to support OEM parts forced me to purchase an incorrect sender!! I spent much time tanking my original with the key on and measured the resistance at various indicated levels on the gauge in an attempt to tame this gauge! Due to the excessive resistance my tank shows the fuel level drop faster than it really is and greatly reduces the effective range of the float arm! It took many attempts of bending, adjusting the length etc. but in reality I will end up placing a resister in parallel to reduce the resistance of this sender. Get ahold of somebody who has a good sender and get resistance specs at full, empty, 1/4, 3/4 etc. and go from there. My original tank has a 6 bolt pattern and the POS replacement gauge is 5 and meanwhile other manufacturers have both or OEM options on the sender mount! When going through this mess also don't let your gauge peg excessively in one extreme or the other as well because this could damage the gauge!
Oh and if I would have totally removed the tank from the car and stood it on end my success would have been better than attempting to solder with the solder being able to flow down and off instead of on end and allowing the molton solder to pool and cool!

[19Fordy]

56markII: You will have better luck if you find another ^V KS sending unit from another car and fine tuning it to work with your stock gauge. As has been pointed out in many threads, KS gauges and sending units DO NOT operate on the Ohms Law principles.

Here's one for sale that could be made to work. Keep an eye on it.
It will never sell for the asking price. Get contact info. and after the auction, make an offer.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1953-1954-1...8AAOSwGBpeOLvj

[19Fordy]

Here's a fuel gauge/ sending unit thread worth reading.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...ng+unit&page=3

[deuce_roadster]

If you have tried several original sending units and none work, have you tried changing the gauge? It has been my experience that most of the sending units I have removed from tanks have worked fine, it usually the float that is bad on them. You can bench test the gauge and sender together with small jumper wires. Also, to insure a good ground as the tank sits on rubber, run a ground wire from one of the screws that holds the sender in the tank to something close by to insure a good ground.
All 6volt Ford gas gauge sending units are the same up to when they went to 12 volts. The only difference is the length and shape of the float arm. I will put a chart in my MISC photo album of this which has the adjustments for different cars. This chart came in a box with a NOS Ford sender and expected you to re use the old arm.
note:
I just looked and the picture I uploaded is hard to read, If you need this info PM me your email address and I can send you the file which is easy to read on the screen full size.

[G.M.]

Just this week we went over all the gauges of some of my
old Fords that have been sitting for years. 39 convertible,
36 roadster, 36 Phaeton, 35 Phaeton and a few others.
Most were stuck in one position and we had to spray carb
cleaner in the resistor and work them until we got an ohm
reading of zero empty and about 30 ohms full or it may
have been 30 empty and zero full. Getting old can't remember
what happened two days ago. I had a big box of old senders
And made enough to get them all working. One sender was
a new one with a larger diameter mounting plate that the
holes lined up and had a large white resistor with the correct
ohms. Also had to replace floats. But they are all working. G.M.

[JSeery]

So these are all aftermarket senders?

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by JSeery

So these are all aftermarket senders?

Only one aftermarket, the one with the larger O.D. top cover
with the big white resister. The others all used original ones. G.M.

[19Fordy]

GM, do those refurbished gauges work ACCURATELY?

[johndee138]

My car is a 36, converted to 12v. I've got a crappy Drake unit that didn't work, some other off brand unit that was touted to be a great replacement, and the non functioning
King Seely unit, if I can find it. The stock gauge used to travel up and down indiscriminately with no real stability. I'm loathe to spoil the presentation of the period dash with an add on cluster of modern gauges hung off the bottom. I'll hide the gauge for the fuel level behind or under the seat or back in the trunk. I just need a good recommendation for a kit that will allow the sender to bolt to the stock tank sender bolt pattern without any alteration. Perhaps one day I'll luck up on a good sending unit that isn't made of solid gold.

[TJ]

John, check e-Bay item# 193399242744. It's a sender adapter that bolts to your stock tank and will take the later model sender. Price is $20. It's just what you need to use a late gauge and sender.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

GM, do those refurbished gauges work ACCURATELY?

Are you taking about senders? Yes they a accurate. You can test the
accuracy with an ohm meter. O to 33 ohms. The guage reads a
reduced variable voltage from the sender. G.M.

[19Fordy]

Not sure I understand what you mean when you say "guage reads a
reduced variable voltage from the sender."
__________________
Does that mean that the guage provides accurate readings as to how much fuel is left in the tank same as it did when using the OEM fuel tank sending unit?
OR
Does the gauge give a reading that is not a direct real time accurate reading but, is instead and "indicator" reading of fuel left in the tank? For instance, the needle on the gauge shows 1/2 but that means the tank is really 3/4 full? Or the gauge needle reads 1/4 but that really means the tank is empty? Thanks.

[G.M.]

Summit Racing has 3 different replacement 1939 Ford type fuel gauge senders
for sale. You can view them on line. They are a reliable supplier. I would call
and ask which one is best. They are all in the $25.00 range. G.M.

[Angledrive]

I have had good luck with John Wolf restoring my old sending units.
http://www.antiqueinstrument.com/

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Only one aftermarket, the one with the larger O.D. top cover
with the big white resister. The others all used original ones. G.M.

So how are you getting resistance readings out of a set of points? Or am I misreading something? And what resistor are you loosening up? I'm confused here. The KS sending units are a set of points that open and close to vary the current.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by JSeery

So how are you getting resistance readings out of a set of points? Or am I misreading something? And what resistor are you loosening up? I'm confused here. The SK sending units are a set of points that open and close to vary the current.

There are no points in the old fuel tank Ford senders. They are resisters. I don't
know how the senders with the bellows on the top work, I am not using any of
them. I will check a few of them Monday. G.M.

[JSeery]

Interesting, the only senders Ford used that I am aware of were the KS units from the mid 1930s up into the 1980s or so. Do you have a photo of one? (Tubman's photo I believe of the insides)

[tubman]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Interesting, the only senders Ford used that I am aware of were the KS units from the mid 1930s up into the 1980s or so. Do you have a photo of one? (Tubman's photo I believe of the insides)

Not my picture (mine was of a temperature sender), but there is obviously a set of of points in there. There was a set in the temperature sender as well.

[JSeery]

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Originally Posted by tubman

Not my picture (mine was of a temperature sender), but there is obviously a set of of points in there. There was a set in the temperature sender as well.

Yep, all the K-S gauges/senders use the same basic setup.

[19Fordy]

First 3 photos and last photo show 1940 Ford GAS TANK SENDING UNIT unit innards. Disregard messy soldering attempt.
Fourth photo shows 1940 Ford dash FUEL gauge innards.

[tubman]

Good pictures, "19Fordy". Now, does anyone want to speculate about the purpose of the toothed wheel in picture #2?

[Zeke3]

Great pictures of the fuel tank sending unit details. Picture 3 shows the toothed wheel has a slope or ramp built into it, so I am going to guess it is used to adjust the gap of the contact points.

[19Fordy]

The purpose of the star wheel is to fine tune the location of the gauge needle for accurate readings on the dash gauge. Turning it CW moves the gauge needle towards the FULL mark. Turning it CCW moves it closer to EMPTY mark. The movement of the star wheel must be done VERY CAREFULLY in just teeny, weeny, itsey, bitsey amounts with a tiny flat blade screwdriver. You must have the patience of a toothache as its a tedious process.

Read all about it in post #4 here.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...k+sending+unit

[tubman]

Exactly! Just another advantage of the "King-Seeley" system.

[Art Newland]

I'm using one of the senders in my F1 from Dennis Carpenter;
https://www.dennis-carpenter.com/en/...k-sending-unit

Working on 12 volts with a 6 volt power converter running the gauges, it certainly looks better than most of the cheapo ones you see for sale. I have no idea how good my gauge is but it now dependably works but only swings the needle from 1/4 to 3/4.
Not working like new but now that I know it's quirks I'm getting by with it. Sure beats walking home... again.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

First 3 photos and last photo show 1940 Ford GAS TANK SENDING UNIT unit innards. Disregard messy soldering attempt.
Fourth photo shows 1940 Ford dash FUEL gauge innards.

This is the bellows type sender. G.M.

[Aarongriffey]

I did a lot of gas gage work when I worked nine years for a car collector with some 400 cars.
A late ‘36 had an electric fuel gage wheras early ‘36 had the same hydrostatic gage as the ‘35. We never tried to make the hydrostic gages work.
The late ‘36 electric gages bolt right in the ‘36 so I put electric 36 units in all of out ‘35 and early 36 cars. We only had 6 volt cars but C&G has everything you need to put in 12 volt gages or convert the 6 volt stuf to work on 12.
For non Ford cars I ordered gages and tank units for 6 volt Jeeps.
I have bought a set when my local NAPA was still in business. It consisted of a round gage, a tank unit and the ring you have the radiator shop solder to the tank to fit the tank unit to.
I did that when I converted my F1 over to 12 volts. Always accurate.
On my 12 volt Nash I used a Chev sending unit and got a round gage from o’reilys for a Chev. It’s worked fine for 23 years.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by G.M.

This is the bellows type sender. G.M.

That's the only type Ford ever used, correct?

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by JSeery

That's the only type Ford ever used, correct?

No they also used the used the with the sending electrical components
up in the top. That's the one with the pictures showing the parts. G.M.

[19Fordy]

Art, PLEASE let us know if that replacement gauge reads accurately across the full scale. Take photos as you go.
Good luck.

[GB SISSON]

I have and I love my original gauge panel in my 47 truck. I am installing an ot diesel engine. Is there any reason not to thread the king seeley sending units and use stock gauges in my conversioin?

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

I have and I love my original gauge panel in my 47 truck. I am installing an ot diesel engine. Is there any reason not to thread the king seeley sending units and use stock gauges in my conversioin?

The gauges will work in any engine. G.M.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by G.M.

No they also used the used the with the sending electrical components
up in the top. That's the one with the pictures showing the parts. G.M.

Which pictures GM? I am honestly trying to figure out what you are referring to. The only senders I have ever seen or heard of in these years of Fords is the K-S units, like shown in post #27 above. None of them are the resistance type, they all use points that open and close to control the current flow. There is no way to take a resistance reading on them (except the base reading of the components). If you know of any other type ever used in Fords I would really be interested in what they look like and when they were used.

"Most were stuck in one position and we had to spray carb
cleaner in the resistor and work them until we got an ohm
reading of zero empty and about 30 ohms full or it may
have been 30 empty and zero full."

Can you post a photo of one of these?

The 36 and 40 wiring diagrams show the sender schematics with the points and heater coils.

[35fordtn]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Which pictures GM? I am honestly trying to figure out what you are referring to. The only senders I have ever seen or heard of in these years of Fords is the K-S units, like shown in post #27 above. None of them are the resistance type, they all use points that open and close to control the current flow. There is no way to take a resistance reading on them (except the base reading of the components). If you know of any other type ever used in Fords I would really be interested in what they look like and when they were used.

"Most were stuck in one position and we had to spray carb
cleaner in the resistor and work them until we got an ohm
reading of zero empty and about 30 ohms full or it may
have been 30 empty and zero full."

Can you post a photo of one of these?

The 36 and 40 wiring diagrams show the sender schematics with the points and heater coils.

J-Seery I too have only ever encountered senders such as those referenced in this thread made by King Seely. I own/have owned well over 200 of them and all original I have seen were of this type. I have not see this "Resistor" type other than when dealing with reroductions.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Which pictures GM? I am honestly trying to figure out what you are referring to. The only senders I have ever seen or heard of in these years of Fords is the K-S units, like shown in post #27 above. None of them are the resistance type, they all use points that open and close to control the current flow. There is no way to take a resistance reading on them (except the base reading of the components). If you know of any other type ever used in Fords I would really be interested in what they look like and when they were used.

"Most were stuck in one position and we had to spray carb
cleaner in the resistor and work them until we got an ohm
reading of zero empty and about 30 ohms full or it may
have been 30 empty and zero full."

Can you post a photo of one of these?

The 36 and 40 wiring diagrams show the sender schematics with the points and heater coils.

Go and look at Speed way's site. There are three brand new Ford senders
that look exactly like the senders in the 5 old Fords we fixed or replaced
the senders in last week. These were all the type with the resister down
in the tank, they read from 0 to 33 ohms from threaded stud on top to the round mounting plate that screws to the opening on top of the tank. G.M.

[35fordtn]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Go and look at Speed way's site. There are three brand new Ford senders
that look exactly like the senders in the 5 old Fords we fixed or replaced
the senders in last week. These were all the type with the resister down
in the tank, they read from 0 to 33 ohms from threaded stud on top to the round mounting plate that screws to the opening on top of the tank. G.M.

if they had a threaded stud they weren't original Ford sending units

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by 35fordtn

if they had a threaded stud they weren't original Ford sending units

Maybe they were not threaded studs but thread for a slotted screw?? I think I have seen both types. Most were for screws you are right. G.M.

[tubman]

Let me get this straight; Speedway's web site is now an authority on original Ford parts? My mind is boggled.

[corvette8n]

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On a lighter note, I ran out of gas yesterday trying to get my '41 home from the storage unit, gauge said I had an 1/8 of a tank. My sender is a used unit I got off of eBay it looks a lot like what Carpenter sells, the one that was in my car when I bought it was an Argentine unit.

[tubman]

Another good reason to fill your tank before storing the car.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Go and look at Speed way's site. There are three brand new Ford senders
that look exactly like the senders in the 5 old Fords we fixed or replaced
the senders in last week. These were all the type with the resister down
in the tank, they read from 0 to 33 ohms from threaded stud on top to the round mounting plate that screws to the opening on top of the tank. G.M.

That's what I was trying to get straightened out, these are reproduction units, all you can get these days. These are not anything Ford ever put in a vehicle, Ford used what you refer to as the "bellow" units made by King Seely. These were used by Ford from the mid 1930 clear up to the late 1980s. I would guess because they are much more difficult to produce most replacement units from fairly early on were the resistance units. Today that is all there is. They work sorta of, but not nearly as well as the original Ford K-S senders.

[johndee138]

BOY! this thread has sure veered off from what I originally posted the question for. Apparently the upshot of all this is, there isn't much available that will work with the original gauge, (what I had already determined) and you take your chances with the "replacement" units.
I picked up the adapter ring mentioned previously, and a universal fuel gauge and sender kit that will fit into it. Now I have to figure out where to hide the gauge.
Now back to the history lesson...........

[35fordtn]

John, if you have a original sender, they can sometimes be easy to fix.

[19Fordy]

John, Keep us up to date on your gauge adventure. Please show photos.

[JSeery]

19Forty posted this in an earlier thread.

"Lay a piece of cardboard or blanket on your trnk floor. The rubber trunk mat is also good.

Lay the sending unit on the blanket and attach the wire from the gauge to the little screw on top of the sending unit using alligator clipped wire.
Using another wire with alligator clips, attach one clip to one of the screw holes on the sender and attach the other end of the wire to car ground, like the trunk latch on the floor. Then, flip the ignition switch to "ON" and move the float up slowly and then slowly down to see if the dash gauge shows a reading. Don't let any of the wires touch each other. If gauge doesn't register a reading shut of ignition switch, disconnect sending unit and carefully pry off the top. Then clean the internal points with 600 grit emery paper. Reassemble and try again."

Just be slow and careful, everything inside is fragile.

[19Fordy]

The "Ohms Law Resistance" type gas tank sending unit and the "KS Bimetallic Heat" principle gas tank sending unit comparison and resulting debate has been going on for some years on Fordbarn. As far as I can tell the result is that there is no "Ohms Law"gas tank sending unit that is compatible with and gives the same accurate readings as the KS units.

I say "No way" to the Speedway, Summit and other aftermarket units that portend to provide KS accuracy.
If there is such a unit, please post a real life photo of it with specific verified and accurate data when used as a replacement in 1930-50's Ford cars. Specifically, how much fuel is remaining in the tank at the EMPTY, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and FULL KS gauge readings. For instance, a 40 ford holds 14 gall. of fuel.

As a side note I think JEEP may have used Ks units also.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by tubman

Let me get this straight; Speedway's web site is now an authority on original Ford parts? My mind is boggled.

NO I didn't say Speedway is the authority on original Ford parts. What
I said was they had 3 39 Ford type senders shown on their web site next
to each other. The 3 are all the same type so it looks like they have 3
different suppliers making them. I also said Speedway is a reliable place
and would not sell parts they have problems with. They have good
knowlegiable people that would tell you how good or bad they are. My suggestion would be to call Speedway and ask about the senders. All the senders they show are the type with the resister that is down in gas.
These are different than the ones shown in the post that is all apart. G.M.

[TJ]

Originally Posted by johndee138

BOY! this thread has sure veered off from what I originally posted the question for. Apparently the upshot of all this is, there isn't much available that will work with the original gauge, (what I had already determined) and you take your chances with the "replacement" units.
I picked up the adapter ring mentioned previously, and a universal fuel gauge and sender kit that will fit into it. Now I have to figure out where to hide the gauge.
Now back to the history lesson...........

Take a look at putting it in the right cowl panel. When in the driver's seat you can look over and see it. Did this on a couple of my old Fords. Easy to put a hole in the cardboard panel. You may have to run a ground wire for the gauge body.