Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-27-2019, 01:13 AM   #1
woofa.express
Senior Member
 
woofa.express's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,102
Default what caused radiator failure?

my newly installed radiator sprung a leak. It appeared where the core is soldered to the top tank but the repair shop said it was the inlet pipe attached to the tank.
I had wondered if I had left the cleanser vinegar in the system too long. The radiator repair shop said maybe or maybe a manufacturing fault, it was not possible to tell.
I am starting to wonder if it was the ridgidity of the rubber hose. the motor moving along plus engine vibration? Or forward movement from the drive train especially since float a motor allows more movement.
The radiator is mounted at the base with springs attached to the bolts as it should be.
I have purchased new softer radiator hose which may reduce transmission of vibration and movement to the radiator.
Does any reader have a comment or idea.
__________________
I know many things,
But I don't know everything,
Sometimes I forget things.

And there are times when I have a long memory.
woofa.express is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 05:43 AM   #2
Jacksonlll
Senior Member
 
Jacksonlll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC
Posts: 1,404
Send a message via ICQ to Jacksonlll
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Where did you find a softer hose? Even with slight movement of the engine, a stiff hose will transmit engine movement to the rad. inlet and put a lot of stress on that solder joint. I have seen several break there and the only repair is removing the rad. Big job while out on tour. We really need a soft convoluted upper hose that I can't find.
Jacksonlll is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 08-27-2019, 05:51 AM   #3
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,894
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksonlll View Post
Where did you find a softer hose? Even with slight movement of the engine, a stiff hose will transmit engine movement to the rad. inlet and put a lot of stress on that solder joint. I have seen several break there and the only repair is removing the rad. Big job while out on tour. We really need a soft convoluted upper hose that I can't find.
I've seen what I call a Concertina hose on cars for sale that I have looked at. It is probably just a matter of going along to a spare parts shop and asking for something so many inches long and 2" dia. They must be about!
Woofa Express, I think you will be fine with that hose but let us know if you run into trouble with it. Do you run a thermostat? If so, it might be a challenge to put it in one of those hoses.
__________________
If schools stay closed too long, parents will find a vaccine before the scientists.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 05:54 AM   #4
woofa.express
Senior Member
 
woofa.express's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,102
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksonlll View Post
Where did you find a softer hose? Even with slight movement of the engine, a stiff hose will transmit engine movement to the rad. inlet and put a lot of stress on that solder joint. I have seen several break there and the only repair is removing the rad. Big job while out on tour. We really need a soft convoluted upper hose that I can't find.

I will go back to the supplier and enquire for you. Will be next week sometime. gary
__________________
I know many things,
But I don't know everything,
Sometimes I forget things.

And there are times when I have a long memory.
woofa.express is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 05:58 AM   #5
woofa.express
Senior Member
 
woofa.express's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,102
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
I've seen what I call a Concertina hose on cars for sale that I have looked at. It is probably just a matter of going along to a spare parts shop and asking for something so many inches long and 2" dia. They must be about!
Woofa Express, I think you will be fine with that hose but let us know if you run into trouble with it. Do you run a thermostat? If so, it might be a challenge to put it in one of those hoses.
Repco didn't have any suitable hose. they did have one with a right angle (300aud).which may perhaps be cut into 2, however it was just as inflexible as the hose I was using (from Snyders).
__________________
I know many things,
But I don't know everything,
Sometimes I forget things.

And there are times when I have a long memory.
woofa.express is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 07:53 AM   #6
Ranchero50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Hagerstown MD
Posts: 134
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Since the system isn't pressurized I'd think you'd be able to use a generic silicone hose off eBay. They even come in orange.
Ranchero50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 08:18 AM   #7
updraught
Senior Member
 
updraught's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,331
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

I take it this only happens on the repro 29 type radiators with the water spout at the top, instead of the 28 with the large funnel. As far as I know most cars sold here had the 28 funnel. Don't think I've seen an original 29 water spout type. Wonder why it was changed?

PS. The concertina hose "may" create turbulance and restrict flow somewhat, maybe.
updraught is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 09:36 AM   #8
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 3,562
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

When I was building my Gordon-Smith Compressor, I was limited on the alignment of the water pump outlet and the inlet to the radiator (top connection)

Gordon Smith uses a Model B water pump - which has a certain angle more along the lines of the 30-31 Model A and would normally mate well with the taller Model B radiator.

In the case of my G-S, I was using a 28-29 pattern radiator - different height/angle - and regular hoses were too stiff and wouldn't make the bend.

Solution came to me with buying a "replacement" hose for perhaps a 1985 Chevrolet. I walked up and down the hose rack at the auto parts store and eventually settled on a hose which had a "kink" built into it - and was the right diameter.

I bought the hose (small money relatively - less than $10 at the time?) and brought it home and held it up against the two connections such that the bend was about mid-way between. Mark and cut off the ends of the hose.

I was also pleased to find the hose is a bit "thinner" than Model A Repop hose and bent easily so removal/replacement of the radiator was not required for assembly.

Still there today - and it looks almost like it was made that way.

Well, actually it was.

Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 09:43 AM   #9
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 3,562
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by updraught View Post
I take it this only happens on the repro 29 type radiators with the water spout at the top, instead of the 28 with the large funnel. As far as I know most cars sold here had the 28 funnel. Don't think I've seen an original 29 water spout type. Wonder why it was changed?

PS. The concertina hose "may" create turbulance and restrict flow somewhat, maybe.
The changeover to the "spout top" radiator was mid-way 1929 IIRC, and was done in cost savings as Ford was tooling up for the taller 30-31 radiators.

Besides the top details, there are other cost saving differences between the two 28-29 radiator patterns, tubes being one of them.

Restriction of flow might not be a bad feature. Many trim their pump impellers or add a thermostat to achieve a similar flow condition.

Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 03:01 PM   #10
mfarley
Member
 
mfarley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Bismarck, ND
Posts: 75
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

I have a 1929 Tudor Sedan in which I recently replaced the radiator. I had a similar leak, from where the inlet pipe meets the top tank, specifically the underside of the joint. The culprit? A 30-31 water neck on the head. That water neck is higher and has a shallow angle, and with the hose connected put upward leverage/pressure on the inlet pipe, causing it to leak from the underside of the joint. I replaced the head water neck with the shorter and sharper 28-29 part and problem solved.

Long story short...do you have the correct head water neck?
mfarley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 03:06 PM   #11
woofa.express
Senior Member
 
woofa.express's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,102
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranchero50 View Post
Since the system isn't pressurized I'd think you'd be able to use a generic silicone hose off eBay. They even come in orange.
I should have mentioned this was a pressurized radiator at 4psi. I now regret my choice to have purchased this variety. I installed a leak proof water pump to complement it. In addition I have "float a motor" which allows just a little acceleration thrust to move the engine forward just a smidgen and maybe this, through a fairly ridged hose has caused it to fail.?????
__________________
I know many things,
But I don't know everything,
Sometimes I forget things.

And there are times when I have a long memory.
woofa.express is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 03:12 PM   #12
woofa.express
Senior Member
 
woofa.express's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,102
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by updraught View Post
I take it this only happens on the repro 29 type radiators with the water spout at the top, instead of the 28 with the large funnel. As far as I know most cars sold here had the 28 funnel. Don't think I've seen an original 29 water spout type. Wonder why it was changed?

PS. The concertina hose "may" create turbulance and restrict flow somewhat, maybe.
Hi Updraft. It appeared to be the premium radiator and because overheating had given me so much grief I paid the premium price. Was that an error. I'm starting to wonder. Details of radiator from catalogue are pasted below. cheers, gary

PRESSURIZED HEAVY DUTY RADIATOR
Same radiator as our heavy duty except this one is pressurized. Has a dummy neck on top with pressure neck mounted on the back of the top tank. 4 psi pressure cap (A-8100-X) recommended, not included.

Core Required

A Core is required. The order will not be shipped until Snyder's received the core. Please check "Accept' when adding to your cart.

PRESSURIZED HEAVY DUTY RADIATOR 28-29 View Details
A-8005-AP
Quantity:
$685.00 EA
__________________
I know many things,
But I don't know everything,
Sometimes I forget things.

And there are times when I have a long memory.
woofa.express is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 03:18 PM   #13
woofa.express
Senior Member
 
woofa.express's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,102
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfarley View Post
I have a 1929 Tudor Sedan in which I recently replaced the radiator. I had a similar leak, from where the inlet pipe meets the top tank, specifically the underside of the joint. The culprit? A 30-31 water neck on the head. That water neck is higher and has a shallow angle, and with the hose connected put upward leverage/pressure on the inlet pipe, causing it to leak from the underside of the joint. I replaced the head water neck with the shorter and sharper 28-29 part and problem solved.

Long story short...do you have the correct head water neck?

thankyou for that. I will check. gary
__________________
I know many things,
But I don't know everything,
Sometimes I forget things.

And there are times when I have a long memory.
woofa.express is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2019, 03:19 PM   #14
woofa.express
Senior Member
 
woofa.express's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,102
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

What a wealth of information you readers have provided. I thank you all. gary.
__________________
I know many things,
But I don't know everything,
Sometimes I forget things.

And there are times when I have a long memory.
woofa.express is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2019, 06:54 AM   #15
updraught
Senior Member
 
updraught's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,331
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by woofa.express View Post
Hi Updraft. It appeared to be the premium radiator and because overheating had given me so much grief I paid the premium price. Was that an error. I'm starting to wonder.
There is a thread on this from 2012 when one of the other brands seemed to have the same problem. A suggestion was to have it silver soldered. Seems like a good idea to me.
Anyone who works with copper pipe should be able to do it.

As far as I am aware, nobody makes the funnel type radiator. 4psi should'nt make much difference.
updraught is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2019, 07:20 AM   #16
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 3,562
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by updraught View Post
As far as I am aware, nobody makes the funnel type radiator.

Might be a problem to get it to Oz, but Brassworks does both kinds of 28-29 radiators. http://www.thebrassworks.net/shop/Re...fd431fae02c116


Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2019, 08:00 AM   #17
mike657894
Senior Member
 
mike657894's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Bay City Michigan
Posts: 1,033
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

I would say manufacturing defect. I wouldn't worry about the hose. lot of A's out there lots with float a mount. If a whole lot a shakin or a float mount were culprit you would see it here.
mike657894 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2019, 02:44 PM   #18
woofa.express
Senior Member
 
woofa.express's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,102
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

As far as I am aware, nobody makes the funnel type radiator. 4psi should'nt make much difference.[/QUOTE] from updraft.
I don't know what a funnel type radiator is, could you please inform me. a reputable radiator shop has made the repair now. thanks, gary
__________________
I know many things,
But I don't know everything,
Sometimes I forget things.

And there are times when I have a long memory.
woofa.express is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2019, 04:45 PM   #19
Joe K
Senior Member
 
Joe K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Cow Hampshire
Posts: 3,562
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by woofa.express View Post
As far as I am aware, nobody makes the funnel type radiator. 4psi should'nt make much difference.
I don't know what a funnel type radiator is, could you please inform me. a reputable radiator shop has made the repair now. thanks, gary

So called "funnel tops" are the earliest design of Model A Ford radiators. They are characterized by a top connection which starts at the hose as "round" but then goes oval and widens to perhaps half the width of the top radiator tank. Think a funnel which has been "mashed" to an oval shape at the widest part.

The funnel top radiators (Ford - Highland Park) continued until about mid-1929 when Ford, in an effort to sweeten the deal with radiator producers for the 30-31 model year, allowed a more conventional 1929 design (Flintlock, McCord) for production, this utilizing a "straight" hose connection to the top tank.

Most of the difficulties people have with the "overflow" spitting come from the unintended consequence of the straight connection design change. Ford engineers themselves in the Service Bulletins advised bending the overflow pipe in the upper tank to the rear of the car to "get it out of the flow coming up from the water pump."

Most radiators found in 1928-29 Model As today are the later type design either as original equipment, or as replacements, period or otherwise.

Ford knew of the challenge of a possibly too small radiator in the 1929 model. A challenge which he met initially by use of the thermally advanced "funnel tops" but later backed down somewhat on the challenge for the remainder of the 1929 model year with big contracts with Flintlock and McCord pending. For 1930 and beyond car production Ford Green Island produced radiators which afforded a larger radiator surface being taller as they are as well as flattened inclined tubes. For 1930-31 Service Replacement Flintlock and McCord produced radiators in the round tube design and their earlier tube stagger. These are generally inferior to the original Ford Green Island 1930-31 flattened tube design. (See "The Ford Model A as Henry Built It" by DeAngelis, Francis, Henry for details on radiator changes.)

The thermal advancement of the funnel tops was primarily in the use of "round" tubes but with an unusual stagger. Non-Ford produced radiators used a conventional tube layout. The numbers of tubes and placement/frequency of radiator fins varied depending on the radiator sub-contractor.

Today one can buy seemingly "close copy" radiators in both funnel top and more conventional design. One can also incorporate in either funnel tops or not the flattened "race-track" type tubes which is the most modern and advanced thermal design.

Today original funnel tops are few and far between having mostly had their useful life and been replaced with more conventional radiators. Only in recent years have a reproduction even been available.

Joe K
__________________
Shudda kept the horse.

Last edited by Joe K; 08-28-2019 at 05:21 PM.
Joe K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2019, 05:27 PM   #20
updraught
Senior Member
 
updraught's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,331
Default Re: what caused radiator failure?

Didn't know Brassworks does the funnel. Third photo in Joe's link.

Bergs doesn't do one (?) but says in its pdf that the inlet is firmly attached by a collar on the tank.
updraught is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16 AM.