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Old 08-04-2019, 05:07 PM   #1
Dirtrack49
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Default Water Pump ID and Questions

Hi all,

While attempting to sort out my new to me 30 Fordor, I noticed what I think sounds like a noisy water pump.

After removing the fan belt, I spun the 2 blade fan and did not here any unusual sounds. However, I did notice that there is approximately 1/4 inch end play in the shaft.

Can anyone please tell me if this is a original type ford water pump and is the collar I see near the fan an adjustment devise?

According to the PO, this is a new pump, and it certainly looks to be so.

Please see attached photos.
Tom L.
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File Type: jpg 1930 Town Sedan waterpump.jpg (53.0 KB, 138 views)
File Type: jpg 1930 Town Sedan waterpump a.jpg (55.3 KB, 130 views)
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Old 08-04-2019, 05:26 PM   #2
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Yes it looks to be an original pump, and the collar is to take up slack in the shaft, but is in the wrong place. It belongs on the other side of the front end of it..
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Old 08-04-2019, 05:37 PM   #3
marty in Ohio
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Right, What FM says, the collar goes under the pulley to keep the shaft from traveling back too far. When properly installed you should never see the collar.
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Old 08-04-2019, 06:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Thanks for the reply's FM and Marty. Gee that makes me wonder what else might not be right on this car. I have put about 75 miles on this car since I bought it. Engine had been rebuilt with 2 miles driven. With the collar in the wrong position, could there be possible damage?
How do I go about fixing this? Does the water pump need to come off or do I just remove the castellated nut and fan?
Having the collar is a fix for a worn head is it not?
Thanks again for any and all help.
Tom L.

Last edited by Dirtrack49; 08-04-2019 at 06:32 PM. Reason: added info
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Old 08-04-2019, 07:12 PM   #5
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

If it was a new pump shouldn't need the collar. A quick fix for the pump. Remove pump and do a rebuild, quite easy.
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Old 08-04-2019, 07:19 PM   #6
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Many times the collar is too thick to fit on the shaft behind the fan. If the collar is to thick it will not allow the fan taper to seat properly on the shaft taper. It all depends on where the impeller was set on the shaft. If the two tapers are not tight the fan taper woller out. In Dallas we put them where you have yours for ease of access. Use a Teflon washer between the collar and pump housing.
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Old 08-04-2019, 07:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Generally, by the time one resorts to a collar the damage has already been done. As in the original water pump shaft has worn "back" into the head which allows too much forward-back end play.

Normal remedies for this include a "long" water pump shaft available at the vendors, or building up the shaft with weld or a brass bolt, or installing a brass bolt/seat in the bridge of the head. Another solution is the "collar."

So given if you can restrain front-back movement to perhaps 1/16" or so you should be good to go. More than this and you run the risk of your water pump impeller contacting the interior of the head and doing more damage, or belt rub, or simply belt wear due to misalignment.

Keep 'em running. A lot can be wrong with a Model A and it still goes - so one has to be "attuned" to the machine much more than modern cars.

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Old 08-04-2019, 08:34 PM   #8
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Thanks for the great feedback.
Now I need to decide what to do. My first thoughts are to rebuild the pump. My second temporary idea is to move the collar up forward to take up the end play where it is located now.
4port, can I pull the fan and slide a teflon washer into the front of the collar, or do I really need to pull the pump?
I guess I must be kidding myself thinking I don't need to pull the pump to come up with some kind of fix?
Tom L.
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Old 08-04-2019, 10:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Looks like a new pump, but the collar is installed backwards, the teflon needs to be against the brass collar, or like said above your can install it on the front of the pump under the fan fully, if you don't have a plastic fan.
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Old 08-04-2019, 10:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Boy, now I am really confused. Herb, you say that the collar is installed backwards? Do you mean that the ridge on the collar, if installed in the front of the housing would be reverse of what is shown in the pictures? The teflon washer would be in between the front of the housing and the collar?
Tom L.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:27 AM   #11
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

The collar is only an aftermarket attempt to correct excessive end play. It needs to be placed in any position to accomplish that task. In lieu of a collar you can build up the pad in the head, or lengthen the shaft to take up the wear. When the car was new there was allowed .006 of end play mostly controlled by the gasket thickness.
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Old 08-05-2019, 01:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary WA View Post
If it was a new pump shouldn't need the collar. A quick fix for the pump. Remove pump and do a rebuild, quite easy.

I disagree, the shaft is kept from moving when it left the factory was the webing in the head. If you look in the head from the water pump end you will see what I mean. This wears out and play can be had on the shaft. Two ways to fix, 1) rebuild the pump with a longer shaft and grind as necessary. 2) use the collar and Teflon washer.
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Old 08-05-2019, 03:00 AM   #13
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

The pump needs to come off because with 1/4" play the thrust washer between the impellor and water pump housing in most likely out of place. The impellor has two pockets for it to fit into. I like the square brass thrust washer best.


Then install the Teflon washer and locking collar on the front of the shaft, where it belongs.
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Old 08-05-2019, 03:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

By the way, this is what happens when the thrust washer falls out of place and cuts the shaft.
Then the fan can move forward into the radiator.
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Old 08-05-2019, 05:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

I'd take that pump off and move the collar to the front of the body (inside the fan hub) where it belongs and while it is out, I'd make sure the thrust washer between the impellor and the body is in its correct position. Otherwise, I think you are OK.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:26 AM   #16
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

When you have the pump out, take out the four studs in the head and replace them with these. Then, you'll be easy on-easy off going forward...

https://modelastore.com/index.php?ro...roduct_id=3813
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Old 08-05-2019, 09:19 AM   #17
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

I would just move the collar back against the packing nut, with the shaft forward and about .006" - .010" clearance.. It can always be re-positioned if/when necessary.
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Old 08-05-2019, 02:16 PM   #18
Herb Concord Ca
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Dirttrack, in looking at your pictures, you have a metal fan, I run a plastic fan and the collar won't fit under the fan hub.
In your case, remove the pump, remove the fan, loosen the brass packing nut and slide the shaft out the back of the pump far enough to remove the collar. Reinstall the shaft, install teflon and collar on end of shaft, set end play to 010" and reinstall fan and then reinstall pump.
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Old 08-05-2019, 04:13 PM   #19
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

I've used those collars for years.My problem was that I could never use one under the fan hub,the hub would bottom out on it before it was really seated.i just push them back against the packing nut,if I have to take up on the nut I can just slide the collar back to keep it tight.Redoing the pump won't set the endplay,the pad in the head does that.
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Old 08-05-2019, 05:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Water Pump ID and Questions

Ok, sorry I missed it, the collar is useless in the position it is in. The collar must be behind the fan or in front of the brass packing nut to prevent rearward movement of the shaft. In order to put the Teflon washer between the packing nut and fan you must remove the fan and shaft from the pump. Best to disassemble the pump and move the colllar in front of the fan or in front of the packing nut with Teflon washer. Make sure the fan seats fully on the taper if you move the collar behind the fan.
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