The Ford Barn

Richard Lorenz · 11-20-2018, 08:12 AM

Paul Moller presented a drawing / diagram of a Model B carburetor, but it has an error in it.

Has anyone else made a sketch of the internal construction of a B carburetor?

MAG · 11-20-2018, 09:28 AM

Richard, can you post a picture of the drawing indicating the error? TIA

Benson · 11-20-2018, 10:19 AM

Gordon Biggar and Rex Reheis found an error in a diagram in 2004 while researching their book.

This is discussed on page iv in the forward to their book.

George De Angelis corrected error in the diagram as published on page B-3 in this book.

The corrected version has "G.D. 04" in lower right corner under the bowl. See page B-3 in Biggar / Reheis book along with text on page B-2.

Two passages are / were reversed.

The error appears in several books over the years.

additional info added since original posting ...

Richard Lorenz · 11-20-2018, 10:58 AM

The Moller diagram has the Main and Cap Jets joined directly together by a line that should be cut off close to the main jet. The main jet then needs to be shown with a fuel supply directly from the bowl.

The De Angelis drawing as shown on page B-3 of the Bigger book looks good except that it would be nicer if a line had been shown going directly from the bowl to the bottom of the main jet. There is room for this line to be drawn in by hand, probably with a red-ink pen so that it will show up.

Benson · 11-20-2018, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lorenz

The Moller diagram has the Main and Cap Jets joined directly together by a line that should be cut off close to the main jet. The main jet then needs to be shown with a fuel supply directly from the bowl.

The De Angelis drawing as shown on page B-3 of the Bigger book looks good except that it would be nicer if a line had been shown going directly from the bowl to the bottom of the main jet. There is room for this line to be drawn in by hand, probably with a red-ink pen so that it will show up.

It was 14 years ago that I looked at this but as I remember one thing wrong was that the Comp and Cap jet were reversed in original De Angelis diagram.

Richard Lorenz · 11-21-2018, 12:01 PM

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There is a serious error in the De Angelis drawing G.D. 04 on page B-3. The Cap Jet is drawn completely wrong. There are no side holes in the Cap Jet, and the "restrictor" (Jet) end should be at the top.

As far as I know, the Cap Jet for the B carburetor is the same as that used in the Zenith-1 and Zenith-2 carburetors that are standard with the Model A Ford.

old31 · 11-21-2018, 08:09 PM

Richard, any pics.

Benson · 11-22-2018, 08:20 AM

Most of my experience is with the Model A carbs but rennerscorner website clearly shows the Model B Cap jets to be different from Model A.

FYI:

All Model B Cap jets I have seen are different from Model A ones.

http://rennerscorner.com/carburetor.html

see SECOND JET set RC-9501-32 on the page above. click on photo to enlarge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lorenz

There is a serious error in the De Angelis drawing G.D. 04 on page B-3. The Cap Jet is drawn completely wrong. There are no side holes in the Cap Jet, and the "restrictor" (Jet) end should be at the top.

As far as I know, the Cap Jet for the B carburetor is the same as that used in the Zenith-1 and Zenith-2 carburetors that are standard with the Model A Ford.

Richard Lorenz · 11-22-2018, 09:33 AM

I have 25 cap jets in my "extra parts" collection. They are all the same and they fit both the B carb and the Zenith 1 and 2.

I will ask my grandson to help me learn how to transfer pictures into Ford Barn. Do you know of a good explanation how to do this that is posted somewhere?

Gary WA · 11-23-2018, 02:21 PM

this help?

Richard Lorenz · 11-23-2018, 03:46 PM

Gary: Thanks for the pictures. The first figure is identical to the Moller drawing that I mentioned above. Even though it is from a 1932 Service Bulletin, it is wrong. The comp and main jets are not joined. The full picture has an Index on the left side which states that item "I" is the feed to the main jet, but the drawing shows it feeding the GAV.

The third figure (view from above) shows the location of I correctly. You can barely see "I" at the bottom of the picture. It is an unrestricted opening to the main jet, and is not joined to the GAV / Cap Jet System. Also, the Cap Jet is shown upside-down in the drawing.

I blew some air through some of the openings in one of my B carburetors. This blowing agreed with what I said above, but was not good enough to actually prove everything that I said.

Benson · 11-23-2018, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary WA

this help?

The plot thickens ... !

AS I mentioned above the Cap jet and comp jet names in the Model B carb appear to have been changed compared to Model A carb.

1. The third diagram in post #10 from 32 SBs shows H as the "Cap jet" this is the location of the comp jet in Model A carb isn't it ?

2. The third diagram in post #10 from 32 SBs shows F as the "Compensator Tube" this is the location of the CAP jet in the Model A carb isn't it ?

Seems that Zenith changed the names of the two jets / "tubes" ... Ain't so? ... beaucoup dien cai dau !

Richard Lorenz · 11-24-2018, 10:09 AM

Benson: You are correct about the jet identifications that the 1932 Service Bulletin diagram shows.

The De Angelis drawing that I mentioned previously uses the traditional names for the jets. It will take me at least a week before I can get help to post pictures.

In the mean time, I hope that someone else will join this discussion.

Gary WA · 11-24-2018, 10:51 AM

Thanks to Renners C for pics.

Richard Lorenz · 11-24-2018, 02:26 PM

I apologize. I was just now in the process of assembling a "B" and discovered that the Caps are not the same as in Zenith 1 & 2. I then looked around and found my container of spare B Caps. Sorry for my error. Richard Lorenz

Richard Lorenz · 11-29-2018, 09:06 AM

Zenith B Carburetor by George De Angelis. Red lines show improvements or correction.

Richard Lorenz · 12-10-2018, 02:53 PM

The first picture shows an unusual Zenith B-2 circular Idle inlet along with the notched throttle plate. This carburetor has a smooth bowl top. Most tops have depressions in the top of the bow. The second picture shows a comparison of the two tops.

Sorry. The pictures did not come up. I will try again in a few days with my grandson's help.

Benson · 12-10-2018, 06:10 PM

As I remember from many years ago.

The B carb type B-1 has a hole in throat like Model A AND requires the notch in the plate.

THe B carb type B-2 has a brass plug with a slot instead of a hole where idle port is. This B carb does NOT use a NOTCH in throttle plate.

A number of B carb types have the wrong plates installed in them.

Bob Bidonde · 12-11-2018, 10:30 AM

Corrected Model B Zenith diagram.

Richard Lorenz · 12-14-2018, 11:49 AM

I Have 3 of the carburetors that use the small circular opening for the idle outlet. These 3 have large
Z" embossed on the throttle side. I just discovered that the were built to use the round B-1 style float. The rectangular float cannot be used. I also have 9 other "Z" carburetors that can use either style float and all 9 have the common brass-slit style idle opening.

This suggests that the style with the circular idle outlet might b the first B-1 type.

ursus · 12-14-2018, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lorenz

I Have 3 of the carburetors that use the small circular opening for the idle outlet. These 3 have large
Z" embossed on the throttle side. I just discovered that the were built to use the round B-1 style float. The rectangular float cannot be used. I also have 9 other "Z" carburetors that can use either style float and all 9 have the common brass-slit style idle opening.

This suggests that the style with the circular idle outlet might b the first B-1 type.

I believe you are correct regarding the idle port design on the first B-1 type. What is still confusing is that your revised drawing shows the "missing" passage to the main jet from the float bowl reservoir yet this is actually the "I" passage depicted on the original Ford drawing. The flow rate via this passage is controlled via the GAV but your rendition seems to neglect this factor. The DeAngelis drawing is a bit cattywompous as it shows two aspects of the float bowl that are out of alignment with the passageway and jet configurations. I still think that the Ford drawing is basically correct except for the false passageway linking the main and cap jets to the same 'I' drilling, which is not the case in an actual carburetor.

Richard Lorenz · 12-17-2018, 10:46 AM

I have 3 of the "small circular hole"type carburetors, but I have 9 B-1 carburetor bottoms. This suggests that the "hole" type carburetor lasted only part way through the B-1 duration.

Gordon Biggers discusses the B-1 idle "hole" type on pages B-1 and B-2 of his book, but he states that the "hole" type was not changed until the B-2 design was started. I believe that some B-1s used the brass slit type idle entrance design.

I have assembled a "hole-type" B-1 carburetor and will try it on a car when I get a chance. I could not find any information about setting the float level. Does anyone know where the float level should be set?

11-20-2018, 09:28 AM	#2
MAG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 925	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram Richard, can you post a picture of the drawing indicating the error? TIA __________________ I noticed the harder I work the luckier I get!

11-20-2018, 10:19 AM	#3
Benson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,594	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram- Error in Model B diagram corrected in 2004 Gordon Biggar and Rex Reheis found an error in a diagram in 2004 while researching their book. This is discussed on page iv in the forward to their book. George De Angelis corrected error in the diagram as published on page B-3 in this book. The corrected version has "G.D. 04" in lower right corner under the bowl. See page B-3 in Biggar / Reheis book along with text on page B-2. Two passages are / were reversed. The error appears in several books over the years. additional info added since original posting ... Last edited by Benson; 11-23-2018 at 04:55 PM. Reason: additional info added since posting ...

11-20-2018, 10:58 AM	#4
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram The Moller diagram has the Main and Cap Jets joined directly together by a line that should be cut off close to the main jet. The main jet then needs to be shown with a fuel supply directly from the bowl. The De Angelis drawing as shown on page B-3 of the Bigger book looks good except that it would be nicer if a line had been shown going directly from the bowl to the bottom of the main jet. There is room for this line to be drawn in by hand, probably with a red-ink pen so that it will show up.

11-21-2018, 12:01 PM	#6
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) There is a serious error in the De Angelis drawing G.D. 04 on page B-3. The Cap Jet is drawn completely wrong. There are no side holes in the Cap Jet, and the "restrictor" (Jet) end should be at the top. As far as I know, the Cap Jet for the B carburetor is the same as that used in the Zenith-1 and Zenith-2 carburetors that are standard with the Model A Ford.

11-21-2018, 08:09 PM	#7
old31 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 2,094	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram Richard, any pics.

11-20-2018, 08:12 AM	#1
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Zenith B Carburetor Diagram Paul Moller presented a drawing / diagram of a Model B carburetor, but it has an error in it. Has anyone else made a sketch of the internal construction of a B carburetor?

11-22-2018, 09:33 AM	#9
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram I have 25 cap jets in my "extra parts" collection. They are all the same and they fit both the B carb and the Zenith 1 and 2. I will ask my grandson to help me learn how to transfer pictures into Ford Barn. Do you know of a good explanation how to do this that is posted somewhere?

11-23-2018, 03:46 PM	#11
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram Gary: Thanks for the pictures. The first figure is identical to the Moller drawing that I mentioned above. Even though it is from a 1932 Service Bulletin, it is wrong. The comp and main jets are not joined. The full picture has an Index on the left side which states that item "I" is the feed to the main jet, but the drawing shows it feeding the GAV. The third figure (view from above) shows the location of I correctly. You can barely see "I" at the bottom of the picture. It is an unrestricted opening to the main jet, and is not joined to the GAV / Cap Jet System. Also, the Cap Jet is shown upside-down in the drawing. I blew some air through some of the openings in one of my B carburetors. This blowing agreed with what I said above, but was not good enough to actually prove everything that I said.

11-24-2018, 10:09 AM	#13
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram Benson: You are correct about the jet identifications that the 1932 Service Bulletin diagram shows. The De Angelis drawing that I mentioned previously uses the traditional names for the jets. It will take me at least a week before I can get help to post pictures. In the mean time, I hope that someone else will join this discussion.

11-24-2018, 02:26 PM	#15
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram I apologize. I was just now in the process of assembling a "B" and discovered that the Caps are not the same as in Zenith 1 & 2. I then looked around and found my container of spare B Caps. Sorry for my error. Richard Lorenz

12-10-2018, 06:10 PM	#18
Benson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,594	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram As I remember from many years ago. The B carb type B-1 has a hole in throat like Model A AND requires the notch in the plate. THe B carb type B-2 has a brass plug with a slot instead of a hole where idle port is. This B carb does NOT use a NOTCH in throttle plate. A number of B carb types have the wrong plates installed in them. Last edited by Benson; 12-10-2018 at 06:17 PM.

12-14-2018, 11:49 AM	#20
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram I Have 3 of the carburetors that use the small circular opening for the idle outlet. These 3 have large Z" embossed on the throttle side. I just discovered that the were built to use the round B-1 style float. The rectangular float cannot be used. I also have 9 other "Z" carburetors that can use either style float and all 9 have the common brass-slit style idle opening. This suggests that the style with the circular idle outlet might b the first B-1 type.

12-17-2018, 10:46 AM	#22
Richard Lorenz Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 447	Re: Zenith B Carburetor Diagram I have 3 of the "small circular hole"type carburetors, but I have 9 B-1 carburetor bottoms. This suggests that the "hole" type carburetor lasted only part way through the B-1 duration. Gordon Biggers discusses the B-1 idle "hole" type on pages B-1 and B-2 of his book, but he states that the "hole" type was not changed until the B-2 design was started. I believe that some B-1s used the brass slit type idle entrance design. I have assembled a "hole-type" B-1 carburetor and will try it on a car when I get a chance. I could not find any information about setting the float level. Does anyone know where the float level should be set?