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02-08-2015, 04:11 PM | #1 |
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Hydraulic Brakes
Hello all, I have all the bits and pieces I need to install 1948 Lincoln 'hydrochloric" Brakes on my Modal A but I've heard mixed reports from several people, the opinions of some of whom I respect. Are they better than the originals? I know that originals properly adjusted and maintained work well but do the larger (by 1") drums work better?
I have seen a Model A with a vacuum booster connected to the cross shaft for extra whoa. The owner says it works well with good feel. Is this a good way to go? My car is a DRIVER so originality is not important Would this be a good way to go for less hassle? I would appreciate informed comments, preferably from those who have installed them. Although I am running original wheels and tyres at the moment, I will be fitting 16" wheels with radial tyres later. I'm hoping that the hydraulic brakes will be good enough to get the benefit that these tyres offer in better braking out of them. I'm not convinced that the original brakes, no matter how well set up would be able to lock the 16" tyres on a dry road.
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02-08-2015, 04:30 PM | #2 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
With stock Model A brakes, the limitation on stopping is the square inches of rubber contacting the road.
No matter how much you think you can improve stopping by installiing hydraulic brakes, you can't get past where the rubber meets the road. You may in fact degrade stopping over strict mechanical brakes the car came with originally. My own thought on this was to install 1940-1947 Ford Hydraulics using the later backing plates, drums, shoes, all pasted onto the Model A spindles. These are brakes for a car that weighed on the order of 2x the weight of the Model A. And then I realized how hydraulic brakes installed as a direct transfer was putting MORE of a tendency to skid based on the challenged footprint. And once you skid - controlled braking is DONE. So I gave it up. The backing plates, hubs, drums and master were all discarded. And instead I worked on improving the existing mechanical brakes. Quote:
But cast iron drums another matter entirely compared to original. And 16" tires still present about the same area of contact to the road - a little better "contact aspect" perhaps. Think of the tire pressure at 35 psi. To support a 2000 lb car requires 57.1 square inches of tread. It will be a little harder to skid 16" tires, based on their contact aspect, but only a little. Joe K
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02-08-2015, 04:46 PM | #3 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Not worth the hassle and expense no matter what you may hear ! I've had hydraulics on several A's over the past 50 years. I would never switch to them. I have them on my 29 pickup and would gladly trade for stock if anyone wanted to do the work of changing. I may change them myself later this year.
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02-08-2015, 06:15 PM | #4 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Just slow down and enjoy the drive ,.., you don't want all those leaking wheel cylinders , , smelly fluid ,. help me pump it up ,,. pedal goes to floor ,.,.,, moisture in fluid ,.,.., I think its the master cylinder ,.., the bleeder just broke off ,. ,..,.
.,,.,. good originals .,., ,.,.
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02-08-2015, 06:35 PM | #5 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Quote:
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02-08-2015, 06:46 PM | #6 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
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You will be surprised how good the brakes are. I have other cars that have been converted to hydraulics and I am for ever fighting leaking wheel cylinders etc. My Model A is always ready to go no matter how long it has been sitting. I would never convert a Model A to hydraulics now that we have good components available to properly fix the mechanicals. My opinion, Chris W. |
02-08-2015, 07:13 PM | #7 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Put some of the effort, time and money you would expend installing the hydraulic brakes on your A into making sure your original brakes are in top condition. You will be pleased.
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02-08-2015, 07:17 PM | #8 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I've driven the A's with mechanical brakes for 30 years and wouldn't switch. Sure you have to be aware, but if adjusted and in good shape they stop the car as Ford intended.
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02-08-2015, 07:34 PM | #9 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Just got done converting a car. Its a pain in the ass, and in my opinion is not worth the trouble. A well restored mechanical brake will work just as good as a hydraulic brake.
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02-08-2015, 08:57 PM | #10 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Thanks for the replies, Guys. Sounds like I was right to respect the opinions of those guys who weren't keen on the idea. I have cast Iron drums and new woven linings coming for the brakes so it seems I will have the best possible shot at having them work well I also have old drums to cut a hole in to centre the shows properly. It all looks good. I'm tired of hearing my wife screaming!!!!!!
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02-08-2015, 09:15 PM | #11 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Mechanical brakes make you a safer driver.
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02-08-2015, 09:34 PM | #12 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I have heard that some have gone back to mechanical brakes after they switched, I was told to just fix my present brakes which I will do with cast iron drums instead of the steel, and my steel still stopped even though they were in bad condition. Iam not switching to hydraulics.
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02-08-2015, 09:59 PM | #13 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Posted this before; never had leaky cylinders in 20+ years with hydraulic brakes. I have had serious brake fade with stock brakes.
Let's put this issue in context: if your putting around on back roads, stock brakes are fine. If you're running in serious traffic with 80+ HP, go with hydraulics.
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02-08-2015, 10:03 PM | #14 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
The 1940 Ford hydraulics on my coupe were installed by a previous owner so I am dancing (or braking) with the one that brought me. I have looked for a decent set of original Model A brakes but have only found incomplete sets of cast-off junk. I don't want to be piecing together a braking system from random bits, especially as I have no mechanical experience with originals. However, if a rodder wants to unload the complete brakes or rolling chassis from his "project" I would be interested. Just my perspective.
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02-08-2015, 10:07 PM | #15 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Think of the tire pressure at 35 psi. To support a 2000 lb car requires 57.1 square inches of tread.
I have never ever heard of this equation in my life. Sounds a bit made up to me. Any facts on this available ? |
02-08-2015, 11:10 PM | #16 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Quote:
http://exploratorium.edu/snacks/tired_weight/index.html Joe K
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02-08-2015, 11:18 PM | #17 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I have proven (to myself and my wife) that when you run into the car ahead of you, it is immaterial whether you have hydraulic or mechanical brakes. Either will get the job done with enough room in front of you. Neither will if someone jumps in front of you and piles on the brakes with a modern machine. I'd bet the average tire to road ratio on our A's is about 1/4 that of most SUV's, even the smaller ones. If the roadway is wet, all bets are off.
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02-08-2015, 11:35 PM | #18 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Then there is nothing we can say except, some people never let facts get in the way of an opinion.
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02-09-2015, 12:30 PM | #19 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I have hydraulics on 2 of my A's, and would never go back to originals, especially on a driver. I use silicone fluid, no leaks and doesn't draw moisture. They are 1" bigger in diameter and have wider shoes. Lincoln type are self energising = easier pedal pressure. They were designed for heavier cars so give you more stopping power in reserve. Sure mechanical's will slide stock wheels and work fine at low speeds and no traffic, but your life is at stake. Don't take chances. If possible drive someone's stocker to get a feel of mechanical's and ask how often they need adjusting.
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02-09-2015, 01:32 PM | #20 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
My mechanical brakes don't need ajustment any more often than hydraulic, before they came out with self adjusting brakes.
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02-09-2015, 01:42 PM | #21 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Good point, Mike.
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02-09-2015, 02:35 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Quote:
Joe K has it right about the size of the tire patch. Not very big on a model A. Here's some data to digest. While not under lab conditions, it was measured as close as a surveyors tape could do. I rigged up a device on the front bumper of my A that would shoot a blank cartridge loaded with white chalk when I pressed the brake pedal. I drove 30 mph on dry concrete, hit the brakes with a modulating force as any driver who has been trained in maximum braking procedure should, and when stopped, measured the distance from the chalk mark to the front bumper device. After 4 runs I averaged the distance. 23 ft. Doing it this way takes the driver's reaction time out of the formula. My A has hydraulic 4 wheel disc brakes. Now let's hear how some mechanical brakes do. Just a tip, if you lock the brakes you will not stop in the shortest possible distance. |
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02-09-2015, 04:22 PM | #23 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
The comparison of four wheel disc brakes and drum brakes are not the same as compairing Hydraulic drum brakes with mechanical drum brakes. Disc brakes will also outperform hydraulic drum brakes. All that I can expect my mechanical brakers to do is lock the wheels if applied firmly enough. If I don't want the brakes to lock, I apply less pressure to the pedal. As for mechanical brakes, a lot of people have non locking rear brakes. My point is that the model A is not a heavy car as compaired to modern cars. Steel drums can expand and fade under severe conditions for sure .Cast iron brake drums have been available for the model A for many years. Ford even introduced cast iron drums sometimes in 1931 . The method of activation doesn't cause drum hydraulic brakes to be superior to drum mechanical brakes. The size of the drums on the model A are large enough to lock the wheels. People that know nothing about brakes automatically figure that hydraulic activation is better because modern cars use hydraulic . If a person can't work with simple mechanical brakes, they are less likely to be able to bleed and work with a hydraulic system that will fail way befor mechanical . activated brakes .
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02-09-2015, 04:29 PM | #24 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Mike, what facts are you speaking of???Seems there are plenty with pre conceived ideas that they won't allow to get in the way of an opinion! It doesn't take much brain power to realise that a 16" tyre has a larger area in contact with the road and therefore a better grip than the original ones, to say nothing of the more advanced design of radial ply tyres. If my Model A as a similar sized "footprint" on the road to a modern car, it could stop just as quickly so long as the brakes are capable of stopping the wheel turning which will take more braking force than an original would, hence my scepticism about the original brakes being able to stop a 16" wheel. Then there is the larger brake drum to wheel diameter ratio to consider. Larger drums on a small wheel will work better than small drums on a large wheel, like original. My scepticism is based on my doubt that an original brake could stop a "sticky 16" wheel turning on a dry road. PS I realise that a sliding wheel will not stop as quickly as one that is not. Maximum braking comes when the wheel is just turning and it is here that the strongest brakes are needed.
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02-09-2015, 04:51 PM | #25 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
The mechanicals have 60 % rear and 40 % front.
They have not got a snowball's chance in hell of out stopping hydraulics . As has been stated , the maximum stopping power is the most power put to all four wheels without any of them locking up. By the time the mechainical rears have almost locked, the front are doing just a piddly amount of work. If the mechanicals were 60 % front and 40 % rear , then that may make a difference, but they are not. If they were so good, we would still have them on cars now. |
02-09-2015, 05:04 PM | #26 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
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Quote:
"The comparison of four wheel disc brakes and drum brakes are not the same as comparing hydraulic drum brakes with mechanical drum brakes." That's a crock. The whole thing has to do with energy transfer to the road surface, not how it is done. You yourself said later that the method of activation makes no difference and that is true for the subject at hand. (model A's) At 30 mph or just about any speed a model a is driven, discs or drums will make no difference. The activation system won't either. As far as people working on their brake system, VERY FEW are qualified to even inspect let alone do maintenance work on them as noted by the many questions on this thread and other forums. As far as maintenance, non self adjusting hydraulics will go 50K miles with no problems. Not so with mechanicals. They do not leak either, if assembled PROPERLY by a QUALIFIED person. |
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02-09-2015, 07:04 PM | #27 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I'm not convinced that the original brakes, no matter how well set up would be able to lock the 16" tyres on a dry road.[/QUOTE]
I locked up the mechanical brakes on my model t in heave traffic once. Pulled back the hand brake, stomped on the pedal, and heard the tires screech. Kept me from rear-ending the car in front of me. Mechanical brakes if set up properly are fine. John |
02-09-2015, 07:25 PM | #28 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I don't agree that the Model A drivers don't know anything about their brakes. The one's that don't rely on those of us who do. We have a tune up session every spring and everyone gets their car checked and especially if they are concerned about stopping. Those of us who drive our cars on the freeway and at speeds higher than 45 mph especially watch our brakes and keep them adjusted. It doesn't take that long when you keep them in shape every year.
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02-09-2015, 08:01 PM | #29 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Quote:
Mr. Bruce, I agree some of us do understand the model A brakes . I am certainly not the only one. As I grew up with model As, The other model A guys were always ready to help other model Aers , even to the point of getting in and pulling the wrenches. Many even would give parts to ethers that needed them. Things have changed . In many cases its a different class of people that are quickly taking over the hobby . |
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02-09-2015, 08:25 PM | #30 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Tires and drums would break the same given the same amount of force applied to them hydraulic or mechanical system. Force is force, if hydraulics applies more force than a mechanical system one might reason hydraulics would break better but there has to be some force limit where no extra force upon the breaks will do any good.
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02-09-2015, 08:37 PM | #31 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Quote:
I agree, when the wheel locks, it would make no difference even if more pressure could be applied. |
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02-09-2015, 09:31 PM | #32 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Quote:
The original brakes might lock up the original tyres but if you had been following the thread, we are talking about the 16" wheels with more grip Even then, it took you both the ordinary brke AND the handbrake to lock up the wheels
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02-09-2015, 10:01 PM | #33 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I merely used this illustration to show that mechanical brakes can lock up tires. You probably know that the Model T brake is totally different than the Model A. The Model T does not have front brakes and the service brake is on the tranny. But I can see now that I am dealing with someone that knows infinitely more than I. John
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02-09-2015, 11:05 PM | #34 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Quote:
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02-09-2015, 11:17 PM | #35 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
NOW!!!!!
If you want better mechanical brakes. Find your self some 32-34 mechanical front brake assemblies and install them on your Model A. I have been told they are essentially a bolt on installation. The 32-34 fronts are 12 in. with cast iron drums. This will not only give you better brakes on the front but it will get the front-rear bias better. The original Model A brakes were 40% front, 60% rear. The bias needs to be closer to 60% front, 40% rear. I recently purchased another Model A. The engine, trans rear end, steering and suspension are all good but the brakes are worn out. I have a very good set of 32 mechanical brakes. I want to install the 32 fronts on the front and rebuild the rears using cast iron drums. I may eventually also install the 32 brakes on the rear but there are modifications required. It will be interesting to see how this works out. I will keep you posted. Chris W. |
02-10-2015, 11:49 AM | #36 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
for CW Pasadena, 1935 brakes would be even better, they have wider shoes than the v32-34 brakes. I still prefer hydraulics -
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02-10-2015, 12:23 PM | #37 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
do the '32 brakes on an A require a different length actuating pin? (the verticle pin)
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02-10-2015, 11:45 PM | #38 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
If you check out my web site you will see the 16" wheels locking up Ted
Quote:
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02-11-2015, 12:40 AM | #39 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Synchro, I have recently installed new cast iron brake drums and the Deluxe Dead Stop Brake Energizer Kit from Flathead Ted to enhance my mechanical brakes. I have 16x4 Kelsey Hayes wire wheels installed on my pickup with Firestone 650x16 Bias ply tyres.
https://www.cokertire.com/650-16-fir...blackwall.html I installed the energizer kit and cast iron drums to the front first, as recommended by someone (cant remember who). I took the car for a drive and managed to lock up the front brakes/wheels without a problem. I have also installed the kit and new drums to the rear of my pickup. All 4 wheels can now be locked up. My braking is now a huge improvement over what it once was. I have adjusted my brakes so that the front brakes engage before the rear brakes. I cannot say for sure that you will have the same outcome with radial tyres and a wider contact patch with the road, but this has been my recent experience with upgraded mechanical brakes. Good luck with your brakes, regardless of which way you decide to go. |
02-11-2015, 02:29 AM | #40 | |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Quote:
Yeah, I'm with Jim also ! After reading his book and giving brakes some serious thought, I sold my entire 'restored' mechanicals to a Montana restorer and put an entire new system of Lincoln hydraulics on my '30 roadster. Being as the roadster is the lightest A and given that the Lincolns ('39 thru '48) were some of the heaviest American cars ...ever, I felt that Jims' advice was sound. They work very nicely and I will not be going back ! And, just remember that safety is paramount with todays traffic and with most guys wanting more horse power out of these A/B engines. I read here , all the time, of guys touting the freeway speeds that they are able to attain with their warmed up banger engines. Doubling or more the horsepower.. without .. upgrading the braking systems, is asking for trouble, IMO. |
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02-11-2015, 03:19 AM | #41 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
The H.A.M.B has excellent resources for this subject.
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02-11-2015, 03:44 AM | #42 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I am a big fan of the best brakes I can get on all my cars that includes modern hydraulic for all of mine
I agree it is possible to get stock A brakes to work well but I want mine to work equally well for every hairpin bend when going down a mountain pass not just the 1st or 2nd corner Yes I could drive at 5 mph with stock A brakes and have semi trucks pass me before each corner pass but that's not really enjoyable to me It is the 3rd or 4th hard braking application where improved brakes prove themselves |
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02-12-2015, 04:09 PM | #43 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I agree. I drove my Tudor to Montana and went over the McDonald pass at Helena. Going down out of the Rockies I was very happy to have well designed hydraulics that did not fade.
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02-12-2015, 07:25 PM | #44 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I'm more familiar with the early Ford hydraulics and their adjustments and simplicity and feel more comfortable about them than I do the mechanicals. Which may be why so many were converted over the years, plus junk yard parts were plentiful and cheap 40-50 years ago. FWIW
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02-12-2015, 08:34 PM | #45 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
No Mechanicals are fine if you drive your Model A the way it was ment to be.
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02-12-2015, 09:08 PM | #46 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
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Mechanicals will stop real well ONCE. Mechanicals fade badly and rapidly Hydraulics will stop well EVERY time, with minimum fade |
02-12-2015, 11:18 PM | #47 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Actually it's worn, thin steel drums that quickly expand with heat, and cause brake fade, so if you install new cast drums, you should have good brakes whether they be mechanically applied or hydraulically applied.
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02-13-2015, 06:26 AM | #48 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
No model A was ever meant to be driven in the traffic conditions we have today, nor at the speeds we must travel at on the roads these days. I like the idea of staying alive so I think hydraulic brakes it is. How many times have we all had some idiot cut in front of us because he must get in front of the old (and therefore slow) car, changing lanes and nearly taking the bumper with him. Good, reliable brakes will keep me out of trouble better then poor ones.
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02-13-2015, 07:10 AM | #49 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Stopping power is based on tire grip and braking capabilities. The method of activation, whether its hydraulic or mechanical, does not determine which leverage ratio is superior. A hydraulic set up could actually require more foot pressure because of an improper master cylinder size resulting a poor pedal leverge ratio. To say that brakes will stop better because of hydraulics is incorrect. The car will stop better if it has better tire grip and a better frictional brake grip. Not because of the activation method. At the cost of possible leaks, the big advantage of hydraulics is the even stopping pressure at each wheel and doesn't require the precise adjusting of mechanicals.
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02-13-2015, 08:35 AM | #50 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Yes, they are longer due to increased diameter of drum. '32-'34 pins are the same. Brake operating wedge is same for '28-'34 and has concave receiver for ball end of pin. '35 (and possibly '36) pin and wedge are different than earlier and have a ball on the wedge and concave end on pin bottom.
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02-13-2015, 09:28 AM | #51 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
I am new to the Model A game... and for the most part mechanical brakes. (except on tractors)
My PU brakes are original spec mechanical with steel drums. They are properly adjusted by a true old school professional... (Rainmaker Ron) I have not had much opportunity to drive her yet but ... I will be using for day trips, events... and some club tours etc. I figure it simple... 40 HP = average speed 40 MPH. No science just common sense. I do not run on the interstate and braking at 40-45 mph is pretty darn good. My rear tires will lock up first if you really get on it. I was told by the master... "Rainmaker" that the reason for the 40/60 was for control. Most the weight is on the front end and if the front brakes lock up first you have NO control when that happens. I have not tried it so no personal experience. My question: I see some have installed the iron bands on their steel drums. Does it help? How difficult are they do put on? My drums are new and my budget is exhausted for awhile. Thoughts, experience, and opinions appreciated. Thanks |
02-13-2015, 11:26 AM | #52 |
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Location: Mpls, MN
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
If your drums are new, are you sure they aren't cast iron? Even if they are steel and in good condition, I think you'll do fine as is. I have good original steel drums and stop fine. If I had to drive down a mountain quite often I'd probably install cast iron drums for less brake fade, but normal driving is fine as is for me.
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02-13-2015, 01:53 PM | #53 |
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
We've let Shay reproduction owner in our Model A Club... all good...
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02-13-2015, 03:29 PM | #54 |
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Re: Hydraulic Brakes
Thanks CT AV8 you confirmed my suspicions before I yank this all apart....
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