Need help at Macungie P.A. Meet.

[peters180a/170b]

From a email i recieved . 40+ years in the model "A" hobby... Well ,i read the whole thread. CONCLUSION .I will never entertain the idea of showing a fine point car as long as these self styled experts hold the hobby hostage. I find [@^%$ ] comments arrogant and self-serving. I respect his knowledge but disagree with his premise on "REPOP" parts.Bottom line unless you are a member of the "ELITE" club [judges and National office holders] and or have an unlimited amount of money to spend ,you do not belong in this judging class. If you do win a "HENRY" , then shut up and don't ask questions. I guess i am getting to be a grumpy ,old man but i remember when the hobby was not about money and power but the love of the Model "A" . My old friends from the old days have no intrest in what is currently going on with the national clubs.You are definately right.[#&$^] and others hold themselfs as "GODS" when it comes to judging matters. [It makes me ill] . A 40+ year man in both MAFCA/MARC clubs. And well respected.

[Fred]

Who ever wrote this ??; Hit the nail on the head !!. "IF YOU DO WIN A "HENRY" SHUT UP AND DON`T ASK ??..

[forever4]

Does anyone know when this thread will be released on DVD?

[peters180a/170b]

Vince , i gotta love ya. Maybe soon and then they can play it at the judges breakfast meeting... l.o.l.

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

For those who are wondering if, or why someone would get into fine point judging there is an another way to look at it. Using a few repro parts including valve stems and hub caps (A&L of course) it is possible and very easy to score in the 400 to 450 point range. This will give you a MARC of Excellence award and a beautiful car. If you desire to win a Henry it is also possible but some more money and time will have to be invested to find all the original parts. if you want to score in the 490 to 500 range then you must invest the time and money to reach that highly elevated score. The difficulty level is certainly there and is it possible? Yes, it is possible but extremely difficult and thus the award is most coveted.
I personally in most cars I build shoot for the MARC of Excellence and then drive and have fun. it is afforadable and within reach of most people. It gives you a beautiful Model A in the end. To those who want to win the Henry I say lets go for it as it is a wonderful goal to shoot for WOW! What a great hobby!!!!!
Ken

[MCHinson]

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Ken, I have no personal experience with MARC or MAFCA Judging or Meets. What are the requirements for the Henry award? I am curious about the MARC and MAFCA Judging System. Is there a written source of information to understand how the judging works? From just reading the Judging Standards, I really have no idea if I should consider Touring Class or Fine Point Judging if I ever attend a MARC or MAFCA Meet, but I am guessing that Touring Class would be more appropriate, as there are a few reproduction parts on my car.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Ken Ehrenhofer

For those who are wondering if, or why someone would get into fine point judging there is an another way to look at it. Using a few repro parts including valve stems and hub caps (A&L of course) it is possible and very easy to score in the 400 to 450 point range. This will give you a MARC of Excellence award and a beautiful car. If you desire to win a Henry it is also possible but some more money and time will have to be invested to find all the original parts. if you want to score in the 490 to 500 range then you must invest the time and money to reach that highly elevated score. The difficulty level is certainly there and is it possible? Yes, it is possible but extremely difficult and thus the award is most coveted.
I personally in most cars I build shoot for the MARC of Excellence and then drive and have fun. it is afforadable and within reach of most people. It gives you a beautiful Model A in the end. To those who want to win the Henry I say lets go for it as it is a wonderful goal to shoot for WOW! What a great hobby!!!!!
Ken

Ken, adding to what you stated above, from personal experience a 'well detailed' car restored with reproduction parts will only score in the 380's. The same caliber of car with very few repro parts but with original stems will likely score in the low 400's, --good enough for a MARC of Excellence but not good enough to get into the mid 400's from my experiences. Area 22 has a total of 35 points available and Doc will deduct ½ of that for repro tires, stems & caps, ...not counting wheel condition & finish. I am definitely not arguing or saying his scoring is wrong other than to say that in just this area alone one can plan on losing 15-20 points. Interior Trim & Plating are also areas that someone will take a huge hit on if reproduction items are found. Then if you take the other 20+/- areas and only subtract 1 point from each of those areas for minor deficiencies , you can see where this will add up to over 70-80 points being deducted. Using just a few repro parts in each of those areas and you can easily lose just 2-3 points per area and you will be under 400 points.

My point is not berate or rebuke the system, but for folks to truly understand that the system is really tougher than many might think.

Originally Posted by MCHinson

Ken, I have no personal experience with MARC or MAFCA Judging or Meets. What are the requirements for the Henry award? I am curious about the MARC and MAFCA Judging System. Is there a written source of information to understand how the judging works? From just reading the Judging Standards, I really have no idea if I should consider Touring Class or Fine Point Judging if I ever attend a MARC or MAFCA Meet, but I am guessing that Touring Class would be more appropriate, as there are a few reproduction parts on my car.

While I'm not Ken, I'll edit my post to include yours with my thoughts. I think the answer to your question can be likened to playing the game of baseball. You can read the rulebook until you have it memorized but you never really understand the mechanics of the game until you have actually played or participated in a game or two. I personally have had several cars compete in both fine-point and touring class judging and prefer the fine-point because I feel it is a tougher challenge. I think the experience all boils down to how honest you are with how authentic your vehicle is and what your goals are by competing. At French Lick this year, out of the 600 plus cars that were there, only 20 vehicles were showcased in fine-point making them the elite of the field. That is a very big honor IMO but to others it may not be such a big thing. Therefore, maybe it is like Yogi Bear says it best about fine-point judging; "This is the kind of thing you like if you like that kind of thing."

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

Watch for the next issue of the Model A News and you will see an article written by Bill Rauscher who built a 30 tudor using a Lebaron Bonney kit and had repro valve stems and hub caps (A&L of Course) and scored 432 points at Dallas. Of course a lot of things were right on the car and he won a MARC of Excellence. We helped him a lot but he was on a budget and could not afford expensive parts. So it is possible but you have to go original where ever you can but he had replacement hoses and fan belt etc.
Aftr Dallas he has driven the car ove 5000 miles and enjoys it every moment he can,
Ken

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

I would always advise people to go for Fine point judging and shoot for the level which they can afford while always trying to find those better parts as you go along. After competing in fine point and driving the car then enter into Touring for the fun and enjoyment of that venue. Remember a fresh restoration is not supposed to be allowed in Touring Class as Touring class is for cars that have been driven. There are repro parts on all cars as tires and many items must be replaced so you must do your homework and repalce with the most correct parts. This will take time and knowledge that can be gained by volunteering to judge at touring and fine point venus.
Study the judging standards and ask questions. If you do not know who to ask I would find an owner of a car just like mine who has won in fine point and e-mail him with all your questions. Of course, I will answer any questions you might have as i am always willing, as most members are, to help anyone in this great hobby,
I hope this helps,
Ken

[forever4]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Therefore, maybe it is like Yogi Bear says it best about fine-point judging; "This is the kind of thing you like if you like that kind of thing."

Yogi Bear? “Hey, Boo Boo! Let’s get us some pick-a-nick baskets!”

Was Yogi Bear a Nick-Picker, too?

[MCHinson]

My car is not a fresh restoration. It is a 1989 restoration. It is well maintained but I have driven it about two thousand miles. It has reproduction hoses, belt, tires, and a few other items. Unfortunately, I bought it after it was restored and had been sitting for quite a few years. I brought it back to the point that it received an AACA Senior Grand National in 2007, but from what I have read, it sounds like it would be more appropriate for touring class judging, as it is in fact, a car that I drive on tours. I try to maintain it as best as I can, but it is driven, it is not just a museum piece, it is a car that I drive.

Until reading this discussion, I would have never guessed that anybody would use an original set of hoses or an original belt that they have to take off before driving the car. I enjoy competition, but that does not quite sound like what I have in mind. I think that I would probably like to go to a MARC or MAFCA meet to find out more, but being from Southeastern North Carolina seems to be quite a handicap in that effort. Any meets planned in the Southeastern US anytime soon?

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

Touring class is for you, but remeber to enjoy and have fun! Touring class is for well restored and maintained cars that are driven and that is certainly you.
Actually this spring we have a non judging meet in Florida and our summer meet in San Diego next year in Wisconsin, Osh Kosh,

Fine point judging is to make the car as close as we can to how it cam off the assembly line and as the points go up so does the challenge,
Ken

[Fred]

I agee, It can be done.. Back in 1986 @ the first World Meet I entered my 8/22/28 49-A for the first time.. Going in I knew I had things wrong, The type of grain on the roof was wrong, A L/B kit & nothing done by Bill Sturm..I did have some hints & help from Capt. John Shepherd & Mrs.Bertha Haueter by looking @ her all original car..A few minor changes were made from that.. I did have a matching set of DILL stems & covers etc. restored by Doc.K...But get this, when he first saw my car he went OFF !! WHITE WALLS ??? &$%$$# & a few more... They are still on it today.. I did have many-many NOS parts, hoses, radiator, pedals, plugs, pop-out & keys, hub caps, speedometer, wires, etc.. I guess I can WHINNNE a little here as a NOS in the box MOTOR METER (before putting it on) was judged as a re-pop.. They never took the cap off to check the stem ??.. I did get either 454 or 64.. Next year in VA. the masters.. It still can be done, it takes time to find the parts & yes $$.. P.S. The car was painted in a two car garage with no exhaust fans poor lighting & had a DIRT floor..

[peters180a/170b]

What it gets down to is this : Lost % on dash [black paint in the 2 recess panels had a edge to them 30/31 style]. Speedometer [not orginial numbers %] ever with a n.o.s. one, they will dock you for yellowed white background.No one i know makes the correct numbers.? lost % on hood shelves [top sides] 1928/1929 style . I have a 1930? and does not have 1928/29 style that i know of ?? would be news to me. Could someone tell me where in the judging book it said cowl wire is all black? % was taken off .All i am reading in the judging standards is cowl wire Black with yellow tracer. Judge did make a note: Take off % cowl wire ,SHOULD BE ALL BLACK... Did i misread AREA 2 ??? And in all these sheets still there it no final Score. Do they do that? Does anyone remember what mine was???l/o/l/

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by MCHinson

I brought it back to the point that it received an AACA Senior Grand National in 2007, but from what I have read, it sounds like it would be more appropriate for touring class judging, as it is in fact, a car that I drive on tours. I try to maintain it as best as I can, but it is driven, it is not just a museum piece, it is a car that I drive.

Until reading this discussion, I would have never guessed that anybody would use an original set of hoses or an original belt that they have to take off before driving the car.

I enjoy competition, but that does not quite sound like what I have in mind. I think that I would probably like to go to a MARC or MAFCA meet to find out more, but being from Southeastern North Carolina seems to be quite a handicap in that effort. Any meets planned in the Southeastern US anytime soon?

Unfortunately this thread has been somewhat destructive to the hobby in my opinion. I think Ken spelled things out fairly well if you reread his first posts.

You seem to enjoy AACA meets. Do you ever expect to win Best of Show at an AACA meet? It sounds to me that if that was your goal OR expectation then you wouldn't be enjoying it so much. Why is it when folks talk about showing at MARC or MAFCA they suddenly think it's all or nothing and if I can't receive 500 points (perfect score) why bother? Again, please reread what Ken said about the scoring. An Award of Excellence is exactly what it says and deserves considerable respect.

Yep, there some of us that run that odd original stuff like hoses, fan belt, etc. However they aren't necessarily removed. My spark plugs, hoses and more have been on the car for 15 years including when I raced it in the pic above. I must admit the fan belt remains on the shelf when I'm driving the car.

As far as competing goes, I ONLY compete with myself. Showing the car is simply a venue to share with others. It's not unusual for me to display the car and not have it judged in venues where that is allowed.

There are a lot of ways to have fun. One way is to participate without specific expectations beyond enjoying the cars and the people. When you lose site of that it's probably time to stay home.

[forever4]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

What it gets down to is this : Lost % on dash [black paint in the 2 recess panels had a edge to them 30/31 style]. Speedometer [not orginial numbers %] ever with a n.o.s. one, they will dock you for yellowed white background.No one i know makes the correct numbers.? lost % on hood shelves [top sides] 1928/1929 style . I have a 1930? and does not have 1928/29 style that i know of ?? would be news to me. Could someone tell me where in the judging book it said cowl wire is all black? % was taken off .All i am reading in the judging standards is cowl wire Black with yellow tracer. Judge did make a note: Take off % cowl wire ,SHOULD BE ALL BLACK... Did i misread AREA 2 ??? And in all these sheets still there it no final Score. Do they do that? Does anyone remember what mine was???l/o/l/

It just seems that you completely object to all the judging results and all points you lost.

No one has asked yet, so I will:
Were you expecting a perfect 500 point score?
It sounds like you were, and would be on fordbarn complaining even if you received 499.

[Mitch//pa]

i have 2 questions from the so called peanut gallery

1. are any of the responders to this thread a certified blue ribbon judge and who are they?

2. did anyone that responded to this thread actually take part in the judging of petes car?

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

i have 2 questions from the so called peanut gallery

1. are any of the responders to this thread a certified blue ribbon judge and who are they?

2. did anyone that responded to this thread actually take part in the judging of petes car?

YES I did judge the Undercarriage of Pete's Car...Your question please???

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by msmaron

YES I did judge the Undercarriage of Pete's Car...Your question please???

you answered my question's by responding that you are a certified judge and you took part in the judging of the undercarriage.

i would like to know if any more of the "responders to this thread" took part in this process of the judging of petes car and who are they?

[henry494]

Mitch,
Yes, I judged Pete's car at French Lick this summer. I am a certified Master Judge in both MARC and MAFCA and have been judging at national meets since at least 1989.

Dave Lopes