Soldering Question

[jkcrosson]

While working on my turn signal, I am needing to solder some wires together. I'm using a non Lead electrical solder but its not sticking to the wires. Should I be using flux other than whats in the center of the solder?

[Y-Blockhead]

Are you getting the wires hot enough?

[Tom Wesenberg]

I've never had good luck with the leadfree solder, either in plumbing or electrical. When I tried the plumbing I had the correct flux that came with the solder, but I gave up and found some good old solder. I think it's rediculous to worry about lead in solder for electrical, and EPA will probably drive another good product out of business. Good 60/40 solder has already tripled in price in the past few years.

[jkcrosson]

I was wrong. I went back and looked at my solder. It's 60/40 lead. Do I need to use an additional flux. Sorry for the original confusion.

[jmeckel]

You should be using 60/40 rosin core, acid core will cause a mess and will corrode the wire over time, no matter how good you think you cleaned it. (This includes acid based flux, liquid or paste style.) You can still buy rosin core solder, 63/37 rosin core solder maybe more common, it is designed to have a faster setup time as it has a closer temperature window and will create less cold solder joints. You can purchase all you would ever want from Tessco.com. They are a electronics supply company.

Your wires MUST be clean and shinny if they are dirty and tarnished the solder will roll off like water off a ducks back, also DO NOT use a torch the flame will cause the solder to not stick, you need to use a solder gun, soldering iron, or a soldering iron heated with a torch. The tip must be cleaned and tinned with solder, if it is not already. Also do not use the solder to create the "mechanical support" for the wires, they need to be carefully twisted together, the solder creates the tight connection for conductivity and to stop corrosion, and yes just the plain old air over time will cause wire to get a fine coating of corrosion and limit the conductivity of the connection.

[P.S.]

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It probably already has flux in it. You can add paste flux which may help. For my electrical work at the circuit board level, I actually prefer to use solder without flux and to use the paste flux and do it myself. However, soldering like that is an acquired skill.

Anyway, as stated above, make sure the copper wires are perfectly clean. Then, make sure they have good contact together for heat distribution. Then, make sure you get the wires good and hot. If you do, the solder should flow just fine. You can use a heat gun to start heating the wires if needed.

[jkcrosson]

Thanks guys. I give it another try Monday.

[Bill's Auto Works]

Lots of good information listed above. Unless I missed it, you should "tin" both wires first, this should help a good bit.

[PC/SR]

The wires must be hot enough to melt the solder so the solder flows onto and into the wires. Put the solder tip under the wires and heat them until the solder flows on from the top.

[newshirt]

Originally Posted by jmeckel

Also do not use the solder to create the "mechanical support" for the wires, they need to be carefully twisted together, the solder creates the tight connection for conductivity and to stop corrosion, and yes just the plain old air over time will cause wire to get a fine coating of corrosion and limit the conductivity of the connection.

I second this. Make certain the wires have a good mechanical connection before soldering. E.g. a good twist with pliers. Without that, solder can fracture and separate from vibration and age. Hot wires should draw the melted solder in.

[CWPASADENA]

If your solder is solid and does not have a rosin core, use a rosin based flux, not an acid or caustic based flux.

If you use acid or caustic based flux with electrical, you will wind up with corrosion in the soldered joint.

I will usually use a little extra rosin when using rosin core solder. It just makes getting a good joint a little easier.

As stated before, heat the wires with the iron until the solder will melt when touched to the wire. Do not melt the solder with the iron itself.

My experience.

Chris W.

[Mitch//pa]

all is great advice above
i also have a WEN 250 like Tom has its a great old antique powerful soldering gun. i found mine on ebay it came with the original box instructions and extra tips all in great shape

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by P.S.

Then, make sure you get the wires good and hot. If you do, the solder should flow just fine.

Originally Posted by PC/SR

The wires must be hot enough...

Originally Posted by newshirt

Hot wires should draw the melted solder in.

Originally Posted by CWPASADENA

As stated before, heat the wires...

Chris W.

Gee, sometimes I wonder if my post even show up on the forum Threads...

See post #2;

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Are you getting the wires hot enough?

[Mitch//pa]

What post?

but to the OP make sure you get the wires hot and clean thats the key

[Y-Blockhead]

Actually you'll notice that most connectors are crimped these days but for our cars unacceptable?

Most people don't know how to solder correctly and a good crimp is much better. But that doesn't help the "Points Guy" much.

[mshmodela]

Clean the wires and get it hot first... Might take a minute or more if your iron is not that strong... If it's not working, you might need a hotter iron...

[takomaned]

I used to use an electric gun until I bought a PowerProbe Torch kit from the tool man. It works so well I took the time to write a review on it. I've found that using small dis. rosin core with some silver content works well. Using flux is also a big help. A can or tube from Radio Shak will last for decades.

[just plain bill]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Gee, sometimes I wonder if my post even show up on the forum Threads...

See post #2;

I saw it !!

[Cool Hand Lurker]

"Most people don't know how to solder correctly and a good crimp is much better. But that doesn't help the "Points Guy" much."

Don't depend on the crimp too much. First, most of us don't have a professional quality crimping tool and the cheap ones just don't do a good enough job. Even with the good ones, the parts of the wire that are not in direct contact with the crimped terminal have little or no contact and will corrode over time. They may also get loose. If you later get an electrical problem the first thing you should check are all the crimped contacts.
I do use a crimper to basically hold the wires in place while soldering. I first clean the wires well, use lots of flux and solder the crimped connection for the best electrical contact. I have few problems with bad connections.
Oh yeah, be sure to clean the wires well and use lots of flux and heat.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

"Most people don't know how to solder correctly and a good crimp is much better. But that doesn't help the "Points Guy" much."

Don't depend on the crimp too much. First, most of us don't have a professional quality crimping tool and the cheap ones just don't do a good enough job. Even with the good ones, the parts of the wire that are not in direct contact with the crimped terminal have little or no contact and will corrode over time. They may also get loose. If you later get an electrical problem the first thing you should check are all the crimped contacts.
I do use a crimper to basically hold the wires in place while soldering. I first clean the wires well, use lots of flux and solder the crimped connection for the best electrical contact. I have few problems with bad connections.
Oh yeah, be sure to clean the wires well and use lots of flux and heat.

yup i agree, usually first place to look for poor grounds/poor connections is crimped terminals. I do as cool hand does and crimp and solder. Cant count the number of times ive had crimped connections break apart from corrosion. if their soldered correctly some of the solder goes into the wire and gives it additional strength and conductivity.

[Patrick L.]

I went thru the school of hard knocks concerning electrical connections. We had contracts for plow/salt truck maintenance.
I learned decades ago to cut out crimp connectors. Wires just need to be clean, twisted together correctly, soldered correctly [ enough heat and resin flux] and covered securely. I shrink tube or rubber coat every connection. There are some connectors now are pretty good at all this, but, I still get out the solder gun/iron.
Heck, I'm so anal about this stuff, I do it in household wiring. But, I also hate normal 14 gauge house wire and use 12 instead.
For electrical stuff, resin/rosin core/ flux should be used, not, acid.
When I mean 'cut out crimp connectors' I mean but/splice connectors not ends.

[Purdy Swoft]

I use rosin core solder from Walmart on electrical connections and have never needed any type flux. I have used this method on many old cutouts that I converted to diode and never had a connection failure. The parts must be clean before any solder attempts.

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

... some of the solder goes into the wire and gives it additional strength and conductivity.

That one of the biggest mistakes people make when soldering. The solder flows up the wire and makes it a solid wire with no flexibility, taking away the reason stranded wire is used in the first place.

Even the manufacturers (Painless, Ron Francis, etc.) of aftermarket wiring harnesses recommend against soldering for that reason.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Actually you'll notice that most connectors are crimped these days but for our cars unacceptable?

Most people don't know how to solder correctly and a good crimp is much better. But that doesn't help the "Points Guy" much.

I actually do both when the connector will allow. Crimp and then solder.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Actually you'll notice that most connectors are crimped these days but for our cars unacceptable?

Most people don't know how to solder correctly and a good crimp is much better. But that doesn't help the "Points Guy" much.

I actually do both when the connector will allow. Crimp and then solder.

[Purdy Swoft]

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Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I actually do both when the connector will allow. Crimp and then solder.

I do the same. That way, you are sure of a good connection. Rosin core solder stays in place good for me instead of running off like water. I use to have problems until I discovered the benefits of rosin core solder .

[Kevin in NJ]

FWIW,

A real good crimp is a cold weld. I use them all the time for the aircraft work I do. A neat tool that has 4 pins that squish the shell of the connector. Granted the A stuff I do not think was done this way. The crimping they did was a great mechanical connection. I have taken some apart.

Only solder is very bad in a connection that carries any current flow. A connector is a point of resistance. Over time the heat causes corrosion and the resistance of the connection increases. This can get bad enough for solder to melt and the wire can get loose. This can be very bad if the wire still has a connection to the electrical source.

In fixing stuff I have had to work with low quality connector ends and had to mix wrong size wires into a connector. In those cases I will crimp then solder to ensure a proper connection.

In the case of exposed connections I will crimp then solder. The crimp gives me the mechanical electrical connection for safety. The solder coats the metals preventing internal corrosion on the strands and between the connector and the wire.

A lot of what I do is based on experience. I am called in frequently to get stuff working and so I get to see what went wrong and I always look close to find out why.

Keep in mind Ford crimped then soldered the connections. I do not recall the bullet ends, but I know the wires on the switch were crimped the soldered.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Y-Blockhead, that's a nice job of crimping.
Do you have a picture of the crimping tool you used?

[Y-Blockhead]

Tom, I'll get you a picture in the morning. I think you will be surprised how inexpensive the tool is, but it works the best of any I have tried. It's for non-insulated connectors 14-22 awg.

[whirnot]

All of the above recommendations above as far as the soldering technique are good.

Of course there are different opinions about whether you should solder or not, but since that is not what you asked for I will ad one tip to the process you did ask for.

When heating the wire in order to solder, it is sometimes helpful to have a small blob of molten solder on the end of your soldering iron you are touching to the wire. The liquid to wire transfers heat better than just the iron to wire.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I always do it like Bill just mentioned. I also put the wire in the flux to get a tiny bit of flux on the end of the wire. This makes the solder and heat flow better, even if using flux core solder. As soon as the solder sets up, but before it cools, wipe off any excess flux.

[Rich in Tucson]

This may help some of you all: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...es-in-minutes/

I have used similar methods on old car wiring, old equipment restoration, and in particular for copper cables/wires I use for high-contact grounds for welding, artwork. etc.

[ian Simpson]

In a past life I used to build railway signalling systems. There is no room for bad connections in this work and the connections had to last for thirty plus years in hostile environments.

We used to always use soldered joints. If the device we were installing was set up for crimped joints, the crimps were soldered.

Our soldering techniques were as follows:

Strip wire(s) back to bright copper (discard any corroded wires).
Clean any terminals with fibreglass pencils.
Apply paste rosin flux to all wires, terminals, etc.
Make a solid mechanical connection by twisting wires, crimping or similar.
Apply solder to hot soldering iron and wipe or shake off surplus.
Press hot soldering iron to wiring joint.
Push solder against wiring joint NOT against the iron until the solder flows.

If the joint is dirty, the iron is not hot enough, or there is insufficient flux, the solder will not flow evenly around the joint. In this case, start over, you cannot be sure to recover a cold solder joint.


Ian

[jkcrosson]

Thanks guys for all the help. The problem was I was not letting the joint get hot enough.

[Patrick L.]

Originally Posted by jkcrosson

Thanks guys for all the help. The problem was I was not letting the joint get hot enough.

Thats common.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by The Master Cylinder

That one of the biggest mistakes people make when soldering. The solder flows up the wire and makes it a solid wire with no flexibility, taking away the reason stranded wire is used in the first place.

Even the manufacturers (Painless, Ron Francis, etc.) of aftermarket wiring harnesses recommend against soldering for that reason.

This is a common problem for those who are just starting to learn soldering. Too much heat for too long will cause the solder to work up the wire too far. Get in with the heat, let the solder flow into the joint, get out with the heat. Don't heat it any longer than it takes to flow into the joint.

[Tom Wesenberg]

And don't get the solder too hot or it gets weak and crumbly. Don't let the tip on the soldering gun get too hot or you shorten it's life. Keeping the tip clean and well tinned should make it last a lifetime for most people. As soon as I see the tip get old solder I'll wipe it while hot, then touch it to the flux and melt a thin layer of new solder onto it.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by ian Simpson

In a past life I used to build railway signalling systems. There is no room for bad connections in this work and the connections had to last for thirty plus years in hostile environments.

We used to always use soldered joints. If the device we were installing was set up for crimped joints, the crimps were soldered.

Our soldering techniques were as follows:

Strip wire(s) back to bright copper (discard any corroded wires).
Clean any terminals with fibreglass pencils.
Apply paste rosin flux to all wires, terminals, etc.
Make a solid mechanical connection by twisting wires, crimping or similar.
Apply solder to hot soldering iron and wipe or shake off surplus.
Press hot soldering iron to wiring joint.
Push solder against wiring joint NOT against the iron until the solder flows.

If the joint is dirty, the iron is not hot enough, or there is insufficient flux, the solder will not flow evenly around the joint. In this case, start over, you cannot be sure to recover a cold solder joint.


Ian

yup i agree with all of these techniques especially in harsh environments both climate and vibration (such as a model A or any car for that matter)