Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-05-2019, 11:23 AM   #1
HalcyonDays
Senior Member
 
HalcyonDays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maine
Posts: 224
Default Preservation vs Restoration

I am interested in hearing thoughts on preservation vs restoration. Consider a rare model, Model A, in close to original unrestored condition. Some areas are, as would be expected, rough, ie. top and interior material; but it has all original parts and there is no rust. This particular car could very easily be brought back to original unrestored condition with a modest investment and searching for original materials. Conversely, it is such a solid car it could be restored to the highest level, no patch panels no fillers.



Even the rarer Model A's will come on the market occasionally, I have not seen one come on the market in this condition in the last few years since I have been search for this particular model.


I know the trend in the market is for unrestored originals. I have seen many beautifully restored examples of this model come on the market, and some very rough unrestored examples missing most, if not all of the hard to find components.



Ten or fifteen years ago, the prevailing thought would be to restore, even more so given the cars solid condition. But...they are only original once, just seems unfortunate to tamper with that.



Any thoughts?
HalcyonDays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 11:33 AM   #2
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 6,339
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

It is only original once. Without seeing the car, my OP is, go thru it and make mechanically safe and enjoy. There are enough restored cars or cars that were started and never finished out there now. Depending on your age and income, to restore is going to take how long? A couple, 5, 10, 20, never?
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 02-05-2019, 12:00 PM   #3
ronn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NNNNNNNNJJJJJJJJJJ
Posts: 6,758
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

you can see the car listed on Mafca= A400
ronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 12:39 PM   #4
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 6,339
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronn View Post
you can see the car listed on Mafca= A400
How about a link for us that do not go to that site.
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 01:20 PM   #5
CHuDWah
Senior Member
 
CHuDWah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kritter Krick, Flaw-duh
Posts: 1,158
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by redmodelt View Post
How about a link for us that do not go to that site.

I think this is the one ronn means - scroll down to the A400 near the bottom:

https://www.mafca.com/cl/cl-v-sale.html
CHuDWah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 01:48 PM   #6
Paul Bjarnason
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Annandale, VA
Posts: 150
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
I would definitely leave a decent unrestored car in original unrestored condition. I find fully restored older cars boring because they appear to have been cleansed of their history. I like some patina. I am currently working on the '29 Tudor which was my wife's grand father's car, bought new in 1929. Many people would say it badly needs a paint job and some fenders, but I am going to straighten out the bumps, clean off the rust and put on a coat of Johnson's paste wax. Full mechanical resto and some upgrades, like hydraulic brakes and Weber carb. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, however -- and, it's your car. Do what will make you like it the most.
Paul Bjarnason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2019, 10:10 PM   #7
Karl
Senior Member
 
Karl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Manawatu, New Zealand
Posts: 1,416
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Bjarnason View Post
I would definitely leave a decent unrestored car in original unrestored condition. I find fully restored older cars boring because they appear to have been cleansed of their history. I like some patina. I am currently working on the '29 Tudor which was my wife's grand father's car, bought new in 1929. Many people would say it badly needs a paint job and some fenders, but I am going to straighten out the bumps, clean off the rust and put on a coat of Johnson's paste wax. Full mechanical resto and some upgrades, like hydraulic brakes and Weber carb. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, however -- and, it's your car. Do what will make you like it the most.
Interesting how we all sit. I agree with you keeping the patina and that over restored cars can sometimes appear cleansed of their history . But is installing hydraulic brakes and a Weber carb not also messing with the cars history ? And the next question is why? As someone who has owned, restored (and not restored ) as well as driven multiple A's I can tell you that properly set up original brakes are as good as Hydraulics and there is nothing wrong with the original carb if put together and set up properly.

But as you say beauty is the eye of the beholder and it is your car.

Karl
__________________
Such a fine sight to see-Its a Girl, My Lord, in a Flatbed Ford slowin' down to take a look at me.
Karl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 12:57 AM   #8
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,774
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl View Post
Interesting how we all sit. I agree with you keeping the patina and that over restored cars can sometimes appear cleansed of their history . But is installing hydraulic brakes and a Weber carb not also messing with the cars history ? And the next question is why? As someone who has owned, restored (and not restored ) as well as driven multiple A's I can tell you that properly set up original brakes are as good as Hydraulics and there is nothing wrong with the original carb if put together and set up properly.

But as you say beauty is the eye of the beholder and it is your car.

Karl

Properly adjusted mechanical brakes will slide all four wheels. Properly adjusted hydraulic brakes will slide all four wheels. Seems to be just a matter of personal preference!
I will add that a hydraulic conversion with a dual master cylinder that is not properly set up will lose all its brakes with just a small leak in either front OR rear.
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 04:10 AM   #9
Synchro909
Senior Member
 
Synchro909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,471
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
Properly adjusted mechanical brakes will slide all four wheels. Properly adjusted hydraulic brakes will slide all four wheels. Seems to be just a matter of personal preference!
I will add that a hydraulic conversion with a dual master cylinder that is not properly set up will lose all its brakes with just a small leak in either front OR rear.
Isn't the point of a dual master cylinder to make sure that can't happen. Did you mean to say "without" a dual naster cylinder?
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood.
Synchro909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 11:52 AM   #10
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,774
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
Isn't the point of a dual master cylinder to make sure that can't happen. Did you mean to say "without" a dual naster cylinder?

I did mean a dual master cylinder. The problem is that total pedal travel has to be the same as original or the pedal will hit the floor before the brakes are applied in case of a leak. If you've ever blown a hose, you noticed that the pedal went to about an inch off the floor before you had any brakes! That is normal.
If a dual master is mounted in an early car and has less pedal travel than OEM or pedal ratio is different, the pedal will likely hit the floor before you have any brakes!
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 01:58 PM   #11
CHuDWah
Senior Member
 
CHuDWah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kritter Krick, Flaw-duh
Posts: 1,158
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

From a dollars and cents viewpoint, the car you describe likely would bring more money restored, although it might not make a profit or even recover investment. I understand the "it's only original once" argument. But the second it left the assembly line, it was no longer original. The first time someone slid into the seat, started the engine, shifted gears, applied the brakes, etc, it started incurring wear. It may have had all its original parts but it was no longer factory original. Yes, that’s an extreme definition but it’s nonetheless true.

Seems to me the question is whether to keep the car as is, with the 90 or so years of history it has accumulated, or restore it as closely as possible to how it left the factory (given that some original materials may be “unobtainium”). Both have merit. In the case of the car you describe, there are restored examples. So my preference is to do only enough to make the car safely and reliably operable and minimize further deterioration.

But that brings up a couple more questions. If the goal is to preserve the car as is, should it become a “trailer queen" to prevent (impossible) or at least minimize further deterioration? Or should it be driven as it was intended to be? The latter will eventually require replacement of some of the car's parts, making it less original. And there’s an even thornier question: assume the car is the ONLY surviving example…preserve or restore?
CHuDWah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2019, 05:36 AM   #12
vern hodgson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: langley, wa.
Posts: 642
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHuDWah View Post
From a dollars and cents viewpoint, the car you describe likely would bring more money restored, although it might not make a profit or even recover investment. I understand the "it's only original once" argument. But the second it left the assembly line, it was no longer original. The first time someone slid into the seat, started the engine, shifted gears, applied the brakes, etc, it started incurring wear. It may have had all its original parts but it was no longer factory original. Yes, that’s an extreme definition but it’s nonetheless true.

Seems to me the question is whether to keep the car as is, with the 90 or so years of history it has accumulated, or restore it as closely as possible to how it left the factory (given that some original materials may be “unobtainium”). Both have merit. In the case of the car you describe, there are restored examples. So my preference is to do only enough to make the car safely and reliably operable and minimize further deterioration.

But that brings up a couple more questions. If the goal is to preserve the car as is, should it become a “trailer queen" to prevent (impossible) or at least minimize further deterioration? Or should it be driven as it was intended to be? The latter will eventually require replacement of some of the car's parts, making it less original. And there’s an even thornier question: assume the car is the ONLY surviving example…preserve or restore?
I would define original as what came off the factory floor and out the door. Wear and tear are what happens to “original” equipment during its service life until the factory part is no longer functioning. Worn original seat fabric is still original, off the factory floor, not a replacement. In my humble opinion.
vern hodgson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2019, 01:58 PM   #13
CHuDWah
Senior Member
 
CHuDWah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kritter Krick, Flaw-duh
Posts: 1,158
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern hodgson View Post
I would define original as what came off the factory floor and out the door. Wear and tear are what happens to “original” equipment during its service life until the factory part is no longer functioning. Worn original seat fabric is still original, off the factory floor, not a replacement. In my humble opinion.

As has been pointed out in this thread, "original" means different things to different people. I agree it means what came out of the factory but my definition ends there. Seat upholstery with a hole worn in it may have been originally installed in the car but it is no longer as it left the factory.
CHuDWah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 02:39 PM   #14
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,774
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

My (admittedly extreme) take: Unless you can come up with the original air for the tires, it will never be factory original, nor ever be a 100% restoration to original! It will just have an original appearance!! And, what about the original fingerprints of the employee that first drove it out of the factory??
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 02:51 PM   #15
ursus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,369
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

It seems that any time there is a gathering of Model A's it is the completely original cars that attract the most attention.
ursus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 03:20 PM   #16
ronn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NNNNNNNNJJJJJJJJJJ
Posts: 6,758
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

thanks Chud, yes that be it.


almost easier to take an old restoration car and give it the "look" of patina.
Then you at least already have a driving vehicle. Cost being about the same, easier to make a good car look worse then to bring this one up in condition.
ronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 03:32 PM   #17
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 11,485
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalcyonDays View Post
I am interested in hearing thoughts on preservation vs restoration. Consider a rare model, Model A, in close to original unrestored condition. Some areas are, as would be expected, rough, ie. top and interior material; but it has all original parts and there is no rust. This particular car could very easily be brought back to original unrestored condition with a modest investment and searching for original materials. Conversely, it is such a solid car it could be restored to the highest level, no patch panels no fillers.



Even the rarer Model A's will come on the market occasionally, I have not seen one come on the market in this condition in the last few years since I have been search for this particular model.


I know the trend in the market is for unrestored originals. I have seen many beautifully restored examples of this model come on the market, and some very rough unrestored examples missing most, if not all of the hard to find components.



Ten or fifteen years ago, the prevailing thought would be to restore, even more so given the cars solid condition. But...they are only original once, just seems unfortunate to tamper with that.



Any thoughts?

Steve, I know you and I have discussed this car some awhile ago, and my thoughts on your particular question(s) is, -it really not that cut & dried.


Great opinions above and I will add my 2 cents. The hobby from my perspective has blossomed over the past few decades where there is not one particular genre that is right or wrong any more. "Survivor" used to mean something totally different than what it does today. "Restored" used to mean something totally different than it does today. Included in that is restorations capabilities of car owners (i.e.: skills, resources, funds, etc.) used to be totally different than what they are today, ...so all those differences added up means there is a market for every types of Model-As in all types of conditions. Your vehicle will likely appeal to a buyer who wants to own it as-is, -or possibly someone who is a hobbyist restorer with possibly limited skills who is looking for an easier restoration. The biggest thing you need to do is find THAT person that loves the vehicle for the genre it represents as that person is the one that will spend the most money on it. Best wishes.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 08:44 PM   #18
Mike the Grump
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 47
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Not really a direct answer to the question asked but....


One of my favorite cars is a 65 fuel injected corvette an acquaintance owns. He bought it in 68 and has driven it once a week to work and occasionally on weekends ever since. The lacquer is checked, it's never been painted. The carpet and seats are worn. Motor/trans have never been apart. While the FI unit has been serviced, its never been restored just maintained. What an awesome car. It would be a crime to tear it all apart to make it look pretty and new.



Others, unless its a truely unique model, that have been used and abused. Restore em. modify em. It's the owners car to do with as they want.
Mike the Grump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 09:35 PM   #19
shark 81
Member
 
shark 81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: thorofare, NJ
Posts: 32
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

Find them fix them drive them. have fun!
shark 81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 09:55 PM   #20
mhsprecher
Senior Member
 
mhsprecher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Posts: 2,811
Default Re: Preservation vs Restoration

I wish there were more photos. It looks pretty good, but that price seems quite reasonable. I vote for preservation, but it really depends on what you are starting with. You are in the same state, so you have probably seen it in person. You can also buy it and decide exactly what to do later.
mhsprecher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:58 PM.