Lets see those 180 A Deluxe Phaetons

[Alex Dragone]

Here is a picture of my late (indented firewall) Deluxe Phaeton. It is all original, meaning it has never been taken apart. You would have to see it in person and look underneath the car. My dad bought it in a collection of cars about 4 years ago from North Carolina and gave it to me. I am the cars second owner and I am only 22 years old! The body was painted once according to gentleman we bought it from in 1960. The car was originally all black with apple green wheels. This guys father painted it because the paint was faded he said. The car even has a ford dealer tag at the bottom of the cowl. Anyone ever see this before? I have the original quail cap that was on the car, I just thought the 29 Franklin airplain was a bit more sporty. I recently put the original cap back on the car. It was in a barn since 1962. It had the original interior in it, but I had it redone because it was eaten by a racoon or some other animal. It retained the original pattern and material, and I kept good pieces just to sho people the correct material. Anyone have pictures of their 180 A? Id like to see them, Restored, unrestored. I love these cars, and I think they are by far the best looking Model A.

[Alex Dragone]

woops mispelled airplane!

[JBill]

Great looking car. Those auxiliary lights are awesome.

[700rpm]

If your dad has any other cars he want to give away, have him contact me.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by JBill

Great looking car. Those auxiliary lights are awesome.

first thing that caught my eye was that radiator ornament

[christian]

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that airplane radiator cap is legit.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Alex Dragone

Here is a picture of my late (indented firewall) Deluxe Phaeton. It is all original, meaning it has never been taken apart. You would have to see it in person and look underneath the car. My dad bought it in a collection of cars about 4 years ago from North Carolina and gave it to me. I am the cars second owner and I am only 22 years old! The body was painted once according to gentleman we bought it from in 1960. The car was originally all black with apple green wheels. This guys father painted it because the paint was faded he said. The car even has a ford dealer tag at the bottom of the cowl. Anyone ever see this before? I have the original quail cap that was on the car, I just thought the 29 Franklin airplain was a bit more sporty. I recently put the original cap back on the car. It was in a barn since 1962. It had the original interior in it, but I had it redone because it was eaten by a racoon or some other animal. It retained the original pattern and material, and I kept good pieces just to sho people the correct material. Anyone have pictures of their 180 A? Id like to see them, Restored, unrestored. I love these cars, and I think they are by far the best looking Model A.

I am pretty sure that Ford never built an indented firewall A180. The body purchase orders were issued prior to the indented firewall being manufactured.

BTW, is Manny your dad? If so, you have a great dad!!


.

[MikeK]

And as I post, there is a one star on this thread. ??? That definitely made me read it! Glad I did.

[Alex Dragone]

Haha thanks guys for the great comments! And Brent, yes Manny is my dad and yes he is a very great dad. Also to comment back on the firewall topic, I have attached a picture of the firewall on my late 31 180A (I just ran out to the garage and took a photo). I believe I have seen a picture of another one with the indented firewall, but here's the proof that a 180A was made with the indented firewall This firewall hasnt been touched since the cars birth. If you notice there is the Ford patent plate, and the 180A Briggs body tag as well right below it.

[tbirdtbird]

ya gotta love the 180As. There is a separate group just for this body style. Can't remember the exact contact info, but the name Ross Milne in Canada comes to mind. Consider yourself very fortunate at such a young age !!! Good luck !!! Don't ever sell it.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE, ME, Alex, I think my Early '29, so called "Std" steelback 5 window coupe is by FAR the best lookin' Model A! Bill W.

[dumb person]

i do not have one, but wish i did.

[ctlikon0712]

Alex, that is a fine car, very envious!!! Love the auxiliary lights too.
Brent, you have seen and worked on more model A's than most of us here so I don't doubt your knowledge but is there a possible legitimate explanation for this cars cowl?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Well, I dunno what else to offer. This topic came up when I was personally with members of the MARC JSC at the archives a year or two ago, and later at their meeting as they were discussing this topic. Evidently based on their research there were 3 blanket purchase orders that were given (I do not recall the dates) for the 180A bodies to be manufactured. Due to "unprojected" slow sales of the 180A model, there was still an excess of bodies left over from the 2nd PO (issued early in the 1931 year?) and so the information at the archives showed that Ford renegociated that 3rd PO to be turned into a B400 purchase order. Their (JSC) point was that the 2nd purchase order was given well prior to the May introduction of the indented firewall, and as such there were not any indented firewalled 180A bodies made. Since I have not spoken with Don about his findings, nor have I seen the Dragone car personally, I am basing my comments solely off of the JSC's research.

Tim, when you have a chance maybe you can call Bill Sturm and chat about this since Bill was involved in that research??


.

[Alex Dragone]

Brent, my specific knowledge of Model A's is not to the extent of the knowledge that I have about Model T's, but I do know that it is very possibe that Ford could have made a few Deluxe Phaetons with indented firewalls because parts were never wasted. As im sure you know, in terms of model T's, erlier parts were always exhausted in a new model year because why waste good parts? So for a very simple example take the 1915-1916 model years. In very early 1916 Ford cars still retained their brass radiators. Also, 1915 bodies, meaning they had wood seat frames, rivited windshield etc..but still had a 1916 designation. This trend was continued all the way up untill the end of the Model T in 1927. So, if I were to take a very educated guess, in light of Fords trends and to maintane efficiency Ford possibly could have used up any 180 A bodies that were not yet used. I am also sure there were some laying around because I doubt Ford would have ordered the bodies from briggs on a just in time basis (meaning one at a time) he most likely ordered them in larger numbers so there were probably a few laying around at the end of 31. But, FYI look at the picture I posted of the firewall, and as Tim has seen and confirmed, the firewall on my car has not been molested. I personally didnt even clean the firewall,under the car or under the hood for these various reasons...so you can not question the car itself. Anyway I love these debates! Let keep this going and see what kind of research anyone can come up with. Brent can you get ahold of soe of that research you are talking about and possibly post some of the info? Thanks!

[Alex Dragone]

Also Bill and Rustyrim, Thanks for the compliments! And That coupe is also very nice haha! I also have been at the Beardslys cider mill meet for that past two years, I will be there this year again as it is a lot of fun, so look for me ill be there.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Alex Dragone

Brent, my specific knowledge of Model A's is not to the extent of the knowledge that I have about Model T's, but I do know that it is very possibe that Ford could have made a few Deluxe Phaetons with indented firewalls because parts were never wasted. As im sure you know, in terms of model T's, erlier parts were always exhausted in a new model year because why waste good parts? So for a very simple example take the 1915-1916 model years. In very early 1916 Ford cars still retained their brass radiators. Also, 1915 bodies, meaning they had wood seat frames, rivited windshield etc..but still had a 1916 designation. This trend was continued all the way up untill the end of the Model T in 1927. So, if I were to take a very educated guess, in light of Fords trends and to maintane efficiency Ford possibly could have used up any 180 A bodies that were not yet used. I am also sure there were some laying around because I doubt Ford would have ordered the bodies from briggs on a just in time basis (meaning one at a time) he most likely ordered them in larger numbers so there were probably a few laying around at the end of 31. But, FYI look at the picture I posted of the firewall, and as Tim has seen and confirmed, the firewall on my car has not been molested. I personally didnt even clean the firewall,under the car or under the hood for these various reasons...so you can not question the car itself. Anyway I love these debates! Let keep this going and see what kind of research anyone can come up with. Brent can you get ahold of soe of that research you are talking about and possibly post some of the info? Thanks!

Alex, ironically I am on vacation right now down in Daytona on the Model T Club Winter Tour, ...driving our 1915 Touring. I also serve as the MTFCI Ass't Chief Judge so I am kinda versed on Model T's too.

As someone who has studied Ford and his production methods as my secondary hobby, there is something that many people do not realize. Contrary to popular myth, nothing was manufactured at Ford just by "chance". For example, Ford did not tell the stamping department to make a bunch of firewalls. Instead there was an exact specified amount manufactured for each order from each of his departments. That is why I feel there is no such thing like using up parts to keep from wasting something. The same applies to Briggs. When a P.O. was issued to a body manufacturer (such as Briggs in your case) for XXX amount of bodies, Ford shipped XXX amount of firewalls & tanks to the vendor. I actually spoke by telephone today with two knowledgeable individuals who called me and offered their opinions regarding your car and the TCD firewall. The bottom line is our opinions do not matter and if you are happy with your car, then we need to be happy with you since it is not being entered into any type of club judging competition.

.

[Joop]

Not stir things up but check this site and take a look at all the pictures.

1931 Ford Model A Deluxe


..

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Joop

Not stir things up but check this site and take a look at all the pictures.

1931 Ford Model A Deluxe


..

seems as though there was more than just one indented firewall DLX Phaeton.

[Alex Dragone]

Of course there are indented firewall Deluxe Phaetons out there. My car is absolutely original. When I say it has never been taken apart, it literally has never been taken apart. The car is very very original except for the 1950's spray job the previous owner did. I too also have a 100% correct 1915 model T touring that if I finish will most likely be able to win an AACA first prize! But anyway Im sure just because Ford ordered these bodies at a certain date doesnt mean they werent used until the end of production. Also there is another one in the link posted by Joop, and Ive seen one or two more. Any thoughts on this one?

[Alex Dragone]

Also brent I dont think there was an exact amount of parts ordered to be made for model T's. How would you explain left over parts being used on newer models if they were so exact in the amount of parts made? For example 1914 rivited rearends being used on early 1915 cars? tapered leaf springs being used only on the rear of a 1916 late in the year and even on some 1917 cars? Or even coupe bodies made for specific model years being used into newer model years as left overs? Ford may have ordered a specific amount, but I dont think he specifically new when that supply of parts was going to be exhausted, and he certainly didnt throw old parts out just because they have been replaced by a new design.

[1931 flamingo]

I'm surprised peter's 180A hasn't chimed in yet, or marco??
Paul in CT

[peters180a/170b]

Ross Milne , 180A Body Style Group ,32 Richmond Dr. , Brampton Ont. Canada, L6W 2EQ. PRESIDENT Of the 180A Club . 1-905-455-6615 ... Alex we met at the Ridgefield Conn meet ..3 , 180A's that meet. AND "YES" there are LATE INDENTED Firewall Phaetons and more then a few...

[Alex Dragone]

Yes I remember! That show was a good one and your car was beautiful! Thanks for the calrification!

[Alex Dragone]

Actually here we are talking at that show next to my car!

[Roadster62]

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Nice car Alex, looks like the photo was taken at the Redding meet. Have you ever given any thought to having a 180A get to gether? There are 6 others within an hour of yours that I know of. What is the record for 180A's in one place other than the Ford Factory? Bob

[Marshall V. Daut]

Yes, Virginia - DeLuxe Phaetons were definitely made with indented firewalls. I own two 1931 DeLuxe Phaetons (180-A): one is an early 1931 with normal firewall and the other is a late 1931 with indented firewall. Sadly, the firewall data plate with body number is missing from BOTH cars. I can take a photo of the firewall as proof, but it's MIGHTY cold down in the garage here in Iowa.
By the way, a quick way to tell a 1930 DeLuxe Phaeton from a 1931 (when the radiator shell or split side splash aprons are not readily visible in old photos) is that the 1931 model has a side curtain socket in approximately the middle of the door's moulding, while the 1930 doesn't. It was determined that because the doors were so side, the side curtain fluttered in the middle without the third middle) socket. Ford added it in 1931. 'Love dem 180-A's!!!
Marshall V. Daut

[ctlikon0712]

Here are three that I saved pics of......

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Well, EXCUUUUUUUSE, ME, Alex, I think my Early '29, so called "Std" steelback 5 window coupe is by FAR the best lookin' Model A! Bill W.

I completly agree Bill, I like my mid June 29 Specal also. Not too many of these around either.
Barry B./ Ma.

[modelAtony]

RED STICK CLUB IN BATON ROUGE,LA . 2 active members and one not active now, give total of 3 dlx 180's. pretty good for a small city like Baton Rouge. have fun modelAtony Lafayette,la

[Alex Dragone]

Bob (Roadster62), I am not sure what the record is for the most Deluxe Phetons in one place. The most my car has ever been with is 3 (including my car). But if I had to guess, most likely a national Ford meet? or possibly an AACA meet such as Hershey. ANd it would be very cool to have a 180A get together. Possibly invite A400's as well. Also, Barry B. I didnt mean to put down all other model A's as I love all model A's and T's and im sure your car is nice as well haha! Now heres a huge question, does anyone know of any ORIGINAL 180A's around that have not been restored like my car? I know there are only around 275 or so 180A's in the world, but how many have not been restored?

[Joop]

Ask Ross Milne [email protected]

PRESIDENT of the 180A Club and let us know.


..

[Alex Dragone]

Also I like apple green wheels. The car in the picture posted by ctlikon0712 with the apple green wheel looks nice. I think I might paint the wheels on my car that color for this season just for a change. Thanks for those pics!

[Alex Dragone]

Joop, I will contact Ross and let everyone know. Thanks!

[peters180a/170b]

Timothy Kelly [VERY GOOD QUESTIONS to Brent] . As far as the restamped firewalls i have seen 3 at 1 meet in Ohio. Dear ALEX please may i correct you [ A400 NOT ! its 400A.] And as you have stated ,,,your car was NEVER off the frame... I did craw under your car ...Apple Green is nice as long as you stay away from WHITE WALLS....Alex there will be 2-180A's that i know of at A.A.C.A. Spring Meet[Carlisle P.A.] this June 1 . John's[Conn.] who just finished a total restoration and mine.

[Alex Dragone]

Peter, thanks for the reply! I will no longer refer to an 400A as an A400! haha And yea I am not a fan of whitewalls on Model A's myself. Also, as you said and confirmed that the body on my car has never been off of its chasis, It will never be taken off in my lifetime either , possily one day I will paint the body black as it was originally,(without taking the car apart of course or touching the firewall or the undercarriage). But, I dont want to do anything really to the car because I like it the way it is even if the body is poop green .

[Alex Dragone]

Also, I dont believe Ive ever seen a "re-stamped" firewall. What do they look like?

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Alex Dragone

Also, I dont believe Ive ever seen a "re-stamped" firewall. What do they look like?

you may have seen more than you think...it is the location of the ribs that are indented

[peters180a/170b]

re-stamped firewall . weird ...

[ctlikon0712]

Here is a re-stamped on a 150B that I saw at Hershey in 2011. Notice the rolled stiffener area's around the fuel shutoff indention.

[Fred]

I also know of one with the late F/W here in Maryland..

[Alex Dragone]

Here is the answer to an email from Ross Milne (President of the 180 A club)that I recently sent to him. He writes:

"There were about 7,500 Deluxe Phaetons assembled. The late Roger
Kaufman studied the numbers and in general stated that in his opinion
5% of the production still exists. That would mean about 375 Deluxe
Phaetons remain. You will see from the Club data base that I will send
you that we know the whereabouts of about 220 spread amongst 11
Countries. You will see from the Body Tag Registry that there are very
few remaining 180-A's with indented firewalls.Actually production
ended early in 1931 so very few with indented firwalls were assembled.
The number 375 can be argued up and down. Many were exported to South
America where they encountered a very tough life - the body cut to
make a "home made" truck. Some from S. A. have been imported to be
restored but most of them came in pretty tough shape. On the other
hand the 180-A being a low production, highly prized Model A seems to
have resulted in cars being stored away rather than being scrapped.
The real answer is that nobody knows the answer to your question with
100% accuracey.
A number of 180-A owners have found original 180-A's that have never
been disassembled but soon after obtaining them have taken them apart
before they realized how rare a car they had.
I do not know of a completely 100% original 180-A. I do know of a
couple that are totally original with the exception of the top.
In summary you have a very rare 180-A minus the original top and interior."

[Joop]

Thanks for posting this.

[swo4rd]

Alex, are you still on this blog? The register maintained my Ross and myself shows about 20 or so indented firewall 180As interestingly all on chassis assembled after July 1931.

Brent, I have searched high and low for those POs and not found even a note...but I am going to turn on one of the "Hired Gun" researchers at the archives to go to work on that...


D

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by swo4rd

Alex, are you still on this blog? The register maintained my Ross and myself shows about 20 or so indented firewall 180As interestingly all on chassis assembled after July 1931.

Brent, I have searched high and low for those POs and not found even a note...but I am going to turn on one of the "Hired Gun" researchers at the archives to go to work on that...


D

Don, Sturm is probably your man on this.

[ronn]

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Alex sold that car many yrs back now.

[McMimmcs]

Originally Posted by ronn

Alex sold that car many yrs back now.

After his attachment to this fine vehicle expressed in his first post, I am surprised he ever parted with this treasure. I thought he would keep it forever. Surprise, surprise !

[ronn]

WHY? HE AND HIS FATHER ARE MAJOR CAR DEALERS.............


Mercers to Stutz and Duesey. They are at Hershey every yr with big dollar cars.

[McMimmcs]

Why? Because he spoke of the new car as if it was a new friend! It wasn't the normal " I got a new Model A"! Maybe it was a subtle advertisement !

[ronn]

subtle advertisement- spot on..................

[john charlton]

I have 1931 180 A *A4744031* body 159 5596 .It is original RHD and one of 143 built at Fords Buenos Aries Argentina plant ,166 built in 1930 . It was imported into England in the early eighties then went to Ireland then back to England I bought it in 2004 and sadly not done any restoration yet . It was complete even top irons rear valance and rear luggage rack . I had been out in outside storage for many years so the upholstery was beyond saving it had VW bug front seats . it was mechanically shot from front to back but near new gears in the transmission none "Made in Argentina" !!! Engine was an early 1928 with "Ford made in USA" under the serial number on the block . The body and doors are solid, most wood still good it has the flat cowl . Right now I am halfway through a 1930 de luxe roadster which I bought in 1973 it came from Santiago de Chile and it was very dire I do a bit at a time as you can see, 1930 68 B cabriolet, 1931 AA truck , 1928 phaeton, 2 x 1930 pickups got in the way plus WW 2 Ford GPW jeep . BUT the 180 A will be next . I got enthused as a friend in sunny Chandler AZ also has one from the BA plant a bit of mathematics showed it was built the day before mine on June 30th 1931 .His is a lovely car and has been converted to LHD . One of my early Restorers showed a line of phaetons at the dockside in Montevideo Uruguay ready to be shipped ot to the States . Also that later article about a man who had two and traded one to get the other fully restored .

John in locked down Suffolk County England .

[Tudortomnz]

Very interesting to hear of your A's John.
Probably Argentina received the most Deluxe Phaetons , they were a wealthy market pre War [ they were a huge primary product supplier to Gt Britain] until Peron stuffed it up.
I have seen a very nice '31 Deluxe Phaeton RHD ex Argentina here in NZ, believe it is now in Auckland. There are a couple of other ones also here but in sad condition requiring a lot of $.
Only 3 Canadian Dlx. Phaetons came new to NZ & all have disappeared although one may have gone to US in '60's & changed to LHD. I have written info about one of the 3 that was traced to the upper Sth Islnd of NZ in the '50's & then vanished.
I have a list of current British Model A's & nearly all the passenger ones are imports [ even ex NZ] but all the AA's are British from new. This appears to confirm that Model A car sales new in Britain were dismal but the truck market was very healthy.
I have never seen an English produced Model A but have learnt a bit about them from your posts.