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Old 05-01-2021, 12:31 AM   #1
Charlie ny
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Default L-100 & 9" clutch

Thanks to 'Scott' my '32 pickup is back on the road. We pulled the motor...before the covid crisis in the family (everyone back home now)...to
have Moriarty install the L-100 cam from KIWI Tony Price and switch
the clutch to a new Van Pelt 9". The cam is so much more than I could have wished for.........the idle every flathead guy dreams of, very decent low end and pulls hard all the way up. I could go on and on, I'm a happy man.
Lincoln springs from 3rd Gen and European adjustables from Van Pelt

( looked and felt like Johnsons )
9" clutch from Van Pelt so smooth but a solid pedal & 3/5's the weight of
the 10" .
Charlie ny
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Old 05-01-2021, 03:03 AM   #2
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Good info. What CI is your engine?
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Old 05-01-2021, 04:51 AM   #3
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Thrilled that your such a happy man Charlie. With all the great work you do for so many putting a smile on their faces it is great the we could return the gesture. Cheers.
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Old 05-01-2021, 06:18 AM   #4
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

ref #2.....'49 Merc 286 cu in, EAB heads min clearance.
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Old 05-01-2021, 08:33 AM   #5
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Back in 87, I was working in a body shop fixing rusty Vermont cars, when a fellow came in as asked if anyone could build a flathead. I raised my hand, and thus started a new life.

That Saturday I went to his shop and looked at his parts. Kong heads with the spark plugs so far up the heads, I was suppressed to see they were still in the combustion chamber. And a cam made for Bonneville Intake was 245 at .03" lift. Then he showed me what it was going in. A 1942 Ford ambulance. (5500lbs)

I tried to explain to him that the cam wouldn't work and the head had 4 to 1 CR at most. He said , "It\s all paid for, so that what we use."

The 276?? went together with only a few problems. Couldn't use the copper head gaskets as they leaked like a sive. Had to us some plastic ones he had.

The original intake and dist ributor wer bolted up and off we went to York PA. Engine sounded like a Hemi and wegot 18 MPG cruised along at 70 plus, and I fell in love with the L-100
I knew David Generous personaly. He had a shop in Milford Ct and I was living in Stratford CT. He was building engines for the Datsum race team with another fellow and grinding cams. This was his flathead cam.
After I opened up Nostalgia engines, it was my standard cam, unless the customer wanted something else. I sen David dozens of stock cams so he had allot of cores

I often wondered if the L-100 would had ever got off the ground, if it wasn't for GEORGE asking me to build him an engine. I still don't have any Idea why it works so good.
Gramps
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Old 05-01-2021, 07:14 PM   #6
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

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That's because Julius and Caesar Litterio were ingenious cam grinders, and the L-100 was developed from years of racing experience in stock cars on short tracks. There was a well worn path beaten to their door in Providence RI by local stock car racers.
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Old 05-01-2021, 07:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

The brothers also had the “patented” for the “dial bore gauge as we know it today. Very Sharp men.
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Old 05-01-2021, 07:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Yes, David told me the whole story. I have a list of all the cams they designed for the Ford engines. One cam L-94 , I used in the 258 Hydro engine amd that went into the history books.
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Old 05-19-2021, 06:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

New here
Wondering where the L 100 is available to purchase?
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Old 05-19-2021, 06:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Tried to send a PM to KiWinUS but I have not yet met the required post count
So. The PM below

Hello, New guy guy here. Wondering about the L 100 cam that I am reading so much about here

I suppose that I should tell you about what I have, to see if the 100 will be appreciate foe me

I have a 40 Tudor with the original(tired ) engine.
I see a rebuild perhaps this winter
The engine is all stock so I guess a pretty clean slate

I'dlike for it to be a dependable DD , modified slightly like a guy in the 50-60s would doo it

Dual 94s, dual exhaust

Your suggestions appreciated
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

"outside347" - Make sure that you look into the information posted here on optimizing quench in the heads. It is done by milling the heads to the minimum clearance and then custom fitting them to the piston tops. In my opinion, it is the single most effective thing that can be done to a flathead to increase efficient combustion. Efficiency adds BOTH economy and power.

Other than that, increasing displacement is a good way of increasing power. It is expensive, and a little more difficult with the early 221 ci engines.

At the very least, you can respond to this post and up your post count which will get you closer to the 10 posts you need to be a "real" member.
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Old 05-19-2021, 07:10 PM   #12
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Tks tubman. Makes sense Much to learn
Would you suggestion require new pistons?
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Old 05-19-2021, 08:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

The configuration of the tops of your existing pistons is probably fine. The problem with reusing the originals is more a matter of wear and age.

In my experience, count on replacing them.
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Old 05-20-2021, 11:12 AM   #14
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Outsider I sent you a pm but if you can’t answer it email me at
[email protected]
Cheers
Tony
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Old 05-20-2021, 04:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiWinUS View Post
Outsider I sent you a pm but if you can’t answer it email me at
[email protected]
Cheers
Tony
Tks Tony
E Mail sent
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Old 05-21-2021, 04:51 PM   #16
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

whew! Love this post!
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:26 AM   #17
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

I can’t pm you as I don’t have 10 posts yet. Im interested in the L-100 cam. Do you still grind them. If yes, would I need to send my stock cam to you?

Thank you.
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:29 AM   #18
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

G’day Dean.Yes still grinding the KiWi-L100. Email me @
[email protected]
I can help you out. Cheers
Tony
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:37 AM   #19
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Charlie, did you use the stock 9" pressure plate, or heavier springs to make it hold ?
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Old 11-28-2021, 02:03 PM   #20
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

I don't thik the L-100 would work very well in a stock displacement engine in a heavy car. Torque i
s what moves the car and the long duration of the cam reduces the lowend torque. By boring and stroking the engine you increas the lowend torwue and the head work increases the CR as well. Planing an engine build you must consider the application. remember, a "Street engine " spends 90% of it's time in cruise!!!
Gramps
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Old 11-28-2021, 04:21 PM   #21
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

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Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
I don't thik the L-100 would work very well in a stock displacement engine in a heavy car. Torque i
s what moves the car and the long duration of the cam reduces the lowend torque. By boring and stroking the engine you increas the lowend torwue and the head work increases the CR as well. Planing an engine build you must consider the application. remember, a "Street engine " spends 90% of it's time in cruise!!!
Gramps
Ron tell us the specs of the legendary Ambulance engine. I may even have them somewhere. Cheers.
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Old 11-28-2021, 08:32 PM   #22
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Just a 276, Kong heads (one piece). Everything else was stock. @bl intale 94 carb and stock ignition. No porting or relieving Stock trams and .70 GM rear. 140" wheel base 5500 lb ambulance with a plat called "Ugly". Ran this way for several years.
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Old 11-28-2021, 08:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Has anyone here run an L100 in a 221 or 239 CI engine? It's generally considered to be 'too big' but has anyone here actually done it?
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Old 11-28-2021, 09:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

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Has anyone here run an L100 in a 221 or 239 CI engine? It's generally considered to be 'too big' but has anyone here actually done it?
I believe Ol’ Ron built a 221 for Paul’s roadster with an L100
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Yep! converted a 37 221 to 239 with an 8ba crank & Pistons . The A roadster had a T-5 and was light as a feather. Sometimes the aesthetic value of the cam is just the sound. Pretty expensive today???
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
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Yep! converted a 37 221 to 239 with an 8ba crank & Pistons . The A roadster had a T-5 and was light as a feather. Sometimes the aesthetic value of the cam is just the sound. Pretty expensive today???
Ron,

My friend and I just picked up 3, pumps in block 221 stud motors this weekend. If I recall, Paul's motor ran pretty strong for a small CI engine.
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Old 11-29-2021, 03:58 PM   #27
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

The weight of the Vehicle is where the problem lies. When trying to accelerate a heavy car the torque output of the engine is what has to do all the work. The more torque the faster the acceleration. Displacement and compression is what increases the torque, not camshafts, they just move it around!!
Gramps
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Old 11-29-2021, 06:03 PM   #28
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Ol' Ron said : "Displacement and compression is what increases the torque, not camshafts, they just move it around!!"


That's a very astute observation, and pretty darned accurate too!
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Old 11-29-2021, 10:27 PM   #29
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Ron's comment is pretty accurate (in a general sense). But, a specific camshaft can increase both HP and Torque - but the RPM at which they are available can be drastically different between any two cams (and engine) combinations.

Typically the more radical the cam profile (lift and especially duration), the higher the power band and torque curves are moved UP the RPM scale. It is not exactly that simple as there are many other factors -- like timing, advance, lobe centers, port volume, port velocity, header design, etc. . . . but you get the point.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

I'd still like to hear about the pressure plate. A stock 9" PP slips in my mild 59a with merc cam, and merc crank, single carb, iron heads. I know Laurie from down under has experienced similar results
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Old 11-30-2021, 12:23 PM   #31
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Here's why I asked about the L-100 in a small engine. Long ago I dealt with a customer's 327 SBC that had stock low-perf heads and a huge cam (Anyone remember the "Optional Z-28" cam that chevy sold over the counter? I was told that's what it was) The result was an engine that ran out of air just about where the cam started to work. It wasn't lack of carburetion, it had a 65 Corvette fuel injection unit on it.



So it had a super nasty sounding idle, and a soggy bottom end, and ran strong from about 4500 to 5000 rpm then distinctly stopped pulling at 5000 presumably because of the combination of 327 CI and the small heads.


Would a 221 w/L-100 do the same thing, or would it continue to make power at higher RPM?
Related question, how much rpm will 221 rods stand up to?


I understand about gearing and weight and torque curve, have dealt with that many times in many ways, I just wouldn't want to build an artificially stunted combination. (I find a high revving engine fun to drive, you don't need big torque when you have horsepower!)
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Old 11-30-2021, 12:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

My apology for not answering your clutch question before....to recap 286 cu in l-100 cam EAB heads with .040 clearance one 97.....all in a '32 pick up with 3:78 gears and
16 - 28 trans. 9" disc and pp from VanPelt.....zero slip and slightly less than moderate leg force required....my legs are 80 years old.Truth be told I was pleasantly surprised
how user friendly this clutch is....still happy after 2000+ miles. No mercy shown.

Charlie
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Old 11-30-2021, 12:54 PM   #33
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My apology for not answering your clutch question before....to recap 286 cu in l-100 cam EAB heads with .040 clearance one 97.....all in a '32 pick up with 3:78 gears and
16 - 28 trans. 9" disc and pp from VanPelt.....zero slip and slightly less than moderate leg force required....my legs are 80 years old.Truth be told I was pleasantly surprised
how user friendly this clutch is....still happy after 2000+ miles. No mercy shown.

Charlie
That's good to know, Charlie. Those 9"ers are super light even compared to a 10" clutch.
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Old 11-30-2021, 06:21 PM   #34
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The term "Horsepower" can't be measured! It must be calculated. Torque X RPM/ 5250. Has something to do with a horse lifting 33,000 lbs of weight over a period of time. Now the formula fussy about where the torque is at, Lots of torque at low rpm's very little hP. Not much torque at high rpm's lotsa hp. When your engine is turning hi rpms, iy's power is limited by the size of the intake port, which acts like a governor to limit airflow into the cylinder and a hot cam can't improve upon a small port. After looking at allot of dyno runs you can see the max torque drop in RPM as the displacement increases. Now add a blower and the torque increases as boost goes up. Thus more horsepower.. I think that;s why I like the 258 engines with aL-100 they'll turn 5k plus and make a fair amyt of hP.
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Old 11-30-2021, 06:41 PM   #35
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

I understand. So for a given port/valve flow capacity, a smaller engine can rev higher and still make relatively good power(torque) for it's size. Where is the practical limit rpm wise for a flathead and what creates that limit - valve spring pressure, conrod strength, piston strength, crankshaft strength/flex, bearing oiling? Something else?
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Old 12-01-2021, 09:13 AM   #36
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

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I understand. So for a given port/valve flow capacity, a smaller engine can rev higher and still make relatively good power(torque) for it's size. Where is the practical limit rpm wise for a flathead and what creates that limit - valve spring pressure, conrod strength, piston strength, crankshaft strength/flex, bearing oiling? Something else?
It is a lot of things . . . really no different than building a SBC or any other engine.

On a flathead, there are multiple things that influence RPM potential:

1) Breathing: Ports, valve sizes, valve lift, duration, etc.. It takes much better air flow than stock ports and valve sizes to make much HP above 5,000 RPM.
2) Ignition: Many stock ignitions will not handle RPMs above 5,000 - unless they've been reworked by somebody who knows all the tricks.
3) Lower End Strength: The higher the RPMs, the more stress on the whole rotating assembly. Cast cranks and 3 main bearings start to become an issue - unless you've expertly setup the lower end, have larger bearing clearances, have everything balanced and have rods that can take the RPMs.
4) Clearances: Typically we open up the clearances on the bearings. If we're running stock rods, then make darn sure that things like "full floaters" actually float, etc.. At higher levels of HP and RPMs - the crank becomes a custom billet and the rods as well.
5) Crankshaft Support: Lots of us increase the strength of the center main bearing cap --- steel caps, supports, etc..

With all the above said, on my fully built engines there is no issue going to 6,000+ RPM . . . with full-on race engines pushing 7,000 (or more).

But, when you get to these higher RPMs a LOT of things come into play - starting with ALL the components in the package --> both valvetrain and lower-end:

Titanium valves, lightweight lifters (no adjustables), higher spring pressures, billet cams, custom cranks, dry-sump oiling systems, custom rods, special ignitions (mags, MSD, etc). etc..
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Old 12-01-2021, 10:14 AM   #37
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Thanks!
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Old 12-01-2021, 11:57 AM   #38
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

At what RPM do you reach max torque?? engine displacement??
G
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Old 12-01-2021, 06:43 PM   #39
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At what RPM do you reach max torque?? engine displacement??
G
That's what I'm getting at with my question about the L100 in a small engine. Will it make max torque before it runs out of RPM because of another limitation?
If it makes it's max at 4500, instead of 2500, I'm OK with that. In fact, that's kind of what I'm after. If it needs 7000 to reach it's optimum range, that wouldn't be a good idea for what I want to do because I don't want to build a race flathead.



100 ftlbs at 5000 is twice the HP of 100 ftlbs at 2500 RPM.
@2500 would be better for towing weight up a hill at reasonable RPM. @5000 would accelerate a lighter vehicle better.


A rising torque curve feels faster than a flat torque curve, even if the flat curve is actually more ftlbs, because the rising curve is increasing in acceleration as it rises. BTDT.
I'm just looking for something fun to drive in small doses, I'm not touring the country or spending a lot of time in traffic.
I do appreciate the input guys.

Last edited by Yoyodyne; 12-01-2021 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:09 AM   #40
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Yoyodyne, To try and answer your question, I think [my opinion], the limiting factor is breathing. I have tried an L100 in a 221...I'm not particularly impressed with it. Sorry Tony!
Most everyone on here that is flathead performance [oxymoron] orientated, believes [possibly rightly so], that there is no substitute for cubic inches [apart from maybe rectangular money], but I tend to prefer developing the little 221 on account of its propensity to rev, on account of its smaller, lighter rotating/reciprocating assembly.
I've spent a major period of my life trying different engine mods, fitting said engines into the same car each time, on that eternal quest of finding out what works best.
Gearing plays a big part in the equation too...generally, I've found using the standard 28 tooth cluster and a 3.78 ratio out back, is a good combination for all round street performance.
So, how to build a sweet 221? main objective is to let it breathe! This involves the usual valve work, porting, multi carburation etc. Next is to raise the compression. Herein lies the old challenge of getting compression up without sacrificing breathing. Aim for 60cc volume in the chambers or less. Now, if you fit your desired L100 cam you'll find the valves in all probability hit the sparkplugs... the way to get maximum breathing through those convoluted passages is to raise the roof, BUT also narrow it...the chamber profile does not follow the head gasket contour. Do not relieve the block [obviously]
OK, how else do we improve the revvability of our favourite little engine? By lightening the flywheel/clutch assembly. Than get the whole kaboodle balanced.
I cannot tell you which cam to use...as previously said, I don't believe an L100 to be best choice....a stock 32 steel cam is pretty good [they have hotter timing, subsequently detuned by Ford in 35 with the introduction of the first 'fat Fords, which need more torque]. I find an Isky 88 to be a good upgrade. That's what I use. There are so many cam choices, it really becomes up to the builder of the engine, taking into account the application of the engine, and the mods done to it, to make a selection.
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Old 12-02-2021, 01:13 AM   #41
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Maybe I don't explain it properly, but, basically the port is too small and Turbulent to pass enough Oxygen (20% of the air) to assist burning enough fuel to make the torque necessary to make much hP
I have a friend that is running a 294ci L-100 cam engine that makes 235 HP@ 4500 rpm on less than 5LBS of boost. It makes over 300ft/lbs of torque AT 3000rpm on 3 pounds of boost/ See what alittle will do for these ports???
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Old 12-02-2021, 02:31 PM   #42
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

Brian
Back in the 60's I built the engines for a sportsman stock car with a 258 max displacement, along with allot of other rules like stock size valves. This was to keep the cost down. after 8 years we had perfected the ' PERFECT CRANK ASSY. The lightest crank assy was the 38/41 91a and forged true pistons. we used Silverlight pistons The Jahnns were made from Lead. an Aluminum flywheel and pressure plate from Shafer. I don't think anyone makes an alum clutch any more. Thhis and 400jr cam was the ultmate powerplant for most of the cars.. I used a 33/34 " camel back intake hollowed out and a 2GC carb. The last 2 years befor the SBC engines replaced the flatheads I switched to a Sig Eroson D410 cam which had better power in the mid range. This cam is nonger available. I have on if someone wants to copy it Much better than the L-100 or 400jr. This little enging could really pull for its size. I built a similar engine for the Hydroplane "Baby Ruth" the boat ran in the 60 mph range.
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Old 12-04-2021, 11:42 AM   #43
Yoyodyne
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

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Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
Maybe I don't explain it properly, but, basically the port is too small and Turbulent to pass enough Oxygen (20% of the air) to assist burning enough fuel to make the torque necessary to make much hP
I have a friend that is running a 294ci L-100 cam engine that makes 235 HP@ 4500 rpm on less than 5LBS of boost. It makes over 300ft/lbs of torque AT 3000rpm on 3 pounds of boost/ See what alittle will do for these ports???
The port restriction is exactly what I'm pondering, - will it prevent an L100 from revving high enough in a 221 to perform to it's max. I was thinking if they will feed a larger motor at lower RPM they should feed a smaller motor at high RPM, but yes it's not always that simple.

And there no chance of boost in this application.
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Old 12-04-2021, 11:57 AM   #44
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

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Yoyodyne, To try and answer your question, I think [my opinion], the limiting factor is breathing. I have tried an L100 in a 221...I'm not particularly impressed with it. Sorry Tony!
Thanks Brian, that experience is exactly what I hoped to see when I asked.
Can you elaborate on "not impressed"? Not rev as high as expected, too lazy down low, too peaky, hard to tune the carbs, idle too high, etc?


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, but I tend to prefer developing the little 221 on account of its propensity to rev, on account of its smaller, lighter rotating/reciprocating assembly.

Gearing plays a big part in the equation too...generally, I've found using the standard 28 tooth cluster and a 3.78 ratio out back, is a good combination for all round street performance.
Exactly what I plan.
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So, how to build a sweet 221? main objective is to let it breathe! This involves the usual valve work, porting, multi carburation etc. Next is to raise the compression. Herein lies the old challenge of getting compression up without sacrificing breathing. Aim for 60cc volume in the chambers or less. Now, if you fit your desired L100 cam you'll find the valves in all probability hit the sparkplugs... the way to get maximum breathing through those convoluted passages is to raise the roof, BUT also narrow it...the chamber profile does not follow the head gasket contour. Do not relieve the block [obviously]
OK, how else do we improve the revvability of our favourite little engine? By lightening the flywheel/clutch assembly. Than get the whole kaboodle balanced.
I cannot tell you which cam to use...as previously said, I don't believe an L100 to be best choice....a stock 32 steel cam is pretty good [they have hotter timing, subsequently detuned by Ford in 35 with the introduction of the first 'fat Fords, which need more torque]. I find an Isky 88 to be a good upgrade. That's what I use. There are so many cam choices, it really becomes up to the builder of the engine, taking into account the application of the engine, and the mods done to it, to make a selection.
When I decided to stay smaller, I had Pete grind a 1007B, do you think that's a good choice? Looks like a have a press on gear L100 to sell.
I'm working on compression. I have repro aluminum 34 heads, was considering even doing some welding in the chambers to make them smaller while they are still new.
I'm planning on a lightened steel flywheel and 9" clutch, after removing the heavy ring I can mill the back to resemble an aluminum wheel, not certain of the finished weight yet but would be a compromise between an aluminum wheel and a normal steel wheel.
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Old 12-04-2021, 12:02 PM   #45
Tim Ayers
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

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Originally Posted by Yoyodyne View Post
Thanks Brian, that experience is exactly what I hoped to see when I asked.
Can you elaborate on "not impressed"? Not rev as high as expected, too lazy down low, too peaky, hard to tune the carbs, idle too high, etc?


Exactly what I plan.When I decided to stay smaller, I had Pete grind a 1007B, do you think that's a good choice? Looks like a have a press on gear L100 to sell.
I'm working on compression. I have repro aluminum 34 heads, was considering even doing some welding in the chambers to make them smaller while they are still new.
I'm planning on a lightened steel flywheel and 9" clutch, after removing the heavy ring I can mill the back to resemble an aluminum wheel, not certain of the finished weight yet but would be a compromise between an aluminum wheel and a normal steel wheel.
Just be careful taking too much away from the flywheel. Someone here (Maybe Dale- AKA Bored & Stroked) had a tale of a lightened steel flywheel coming apart.

I believe B&S worked with RAM clutches and got a lightened steel flywheel made that has reliefs in the back like you are looking to do.

Last edited by Tim Ayers; 12-04-2021 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 12-04-2021, 12:17 PM   #46
Ol' Ron
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Default Re: L-100 & 9" clutch

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Yes, the cast iron flywheel, if not properly balanced can be a time Boom. The early 9" flywkeels had a large lip on them which we vut off in a lathe. re drilled for the 10" clutch and off we went. Most of the time we got away with this. However on one ocasion the flywheel came apart, fortunately the force went down driving several large pieces into the track. If you make any modifications to the flywheel, which I don't recommend,have it rebalanced. For streeet the heavy flywheel is bettr anyway.
Gramps
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