T-5 to flathead won't shift into gear with engine running.

[Init1]

My newly installed T-5 won't shift. Shifts fine with the engine not running.
Using 10" S-10 disc, stock ford throw out, New ford long arm pressure plate
Late flattie with hogs head and and 1" adaptor plate.
The disc is releasing.
Everything bolted up normally so I did not cut any off the end of the trans input shaft. Could that cause the problem? Anybody got an idea?

[JSeery]

Sounds like something is turning the input shaft with the engine running. If you have the space, might try starting it with the transmission in gear and the clutch disengaged (this is not a safe test!!!). If the input shaft is hanging up somewhere it might make the car start to move when the starter turns over. I would think that the input shaft is to tight or hung up somewhere, like the pilot bearing or the back of the crank. The input shafts are too long and extend past the pilot bearing, it may be hitting the back of the crank hard enough to make it turn. They need at least 1/4 inch cut off if it is hitting. Cornhuskers says 1/4 to 3/8 and then chamfer the cut end so it fits into the pilot bearing easily. Are you using a roller bearing or bushing pilot bearing?

[Init1]

Using a bronze bush. I can see the disc turning through the inspection window in the bell housing when I put a crescent wrench on the throw out shaft and move it all the way forward
With the right rear wheel off the ground and me spinning it by hand and the trans in a gear.
And the engine off. I can see the throw out moving normally forward when I depress the clutch.
It could be the input shaft is touching the end of the crank causing it to spin all the time.
Good thought.
Any ideas?

[35topdown]

Your bronze bushing might be the problem. It has no lubricating properties. You need an oilite bushing. It is oil impregnated and is the material that OEM bushings are made from. The bronze will gall up on the shaft and grab it keeping it turning.

[TomT/Williamsburg]

You also may want to space out the T5 adapter with 2-3 washers to see if the snout where the t-out bearing rides is not too close to the p-plate. This is not usual for the 8BA and more prone to the 59AB but you are using a different p-plate vs the stock one ....

[33cabriolet]

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clutch is dragging binding syncro rings,adjustment is off or pressure plate is dragging

[JSeery]

I would pull the tranny and check the input shaft, but if you want to try some more testing, Tom's idea would be a place to start. Start backing the transmission out by stacking washers under each of the mounting bolts and see if there are any changes. If the input shaft is pressing on the crank it shouldn't take very many to back it up enough. If it is binding on the pilot bearing then this won't help.

[Init1]

Originally Posted by 35topdown

Your bronze bushing might be the problem. It has no lubricating properties. You need an oilite bushing. It is oil impregnated and is the material that OEM bushings are made from. The bronze will gall up on the shaft and grab it keeping it turning.

It is an oilite bush from Speedy Bill.

[George/Maine]

Put it in gear and start it see what happens.
Could be bending splines of if you are to cut and didn't that's the problems.

[gmc1941]

Can you shift thru any gears with the engine turned off? Did you pull the shifting lever and install when it was in neutral?

[GreenMonster48]

Sounds like your clutch is out of adjustment. My truck did something similar with the new motor. With the clutch in, it would grind going into gear. I had to shut the truck off, put it in gear, then start the truck again. Ended up adjusting the pedal out.

Other thing it could be is that the bearing retainer may have to be trimmed a little, could be hitting the fingers just enough.

[AnthonyG]

A safer test to see if you are binding at the pilot without starting the engine to check for the amount of tension is slight or severe is to raise one side of the rear as it sounds like you've done already and put the car in gear and try to turn the wheel / tire which is raised. Have someone watch the engine to see if it turns as you turn the rear wheel, the compression should prevent this from happening if the binding is only slight. If slight could be that the pilot is just a little tight or got a little banged up while putting the tranny in. If the engine turns over against the compression or you can't turn the wheel / tire then the problem is as has been suggested and your input shaft is dead against the flywheel which will need to be removed and machined shorter. If you are able to turn the wheel / tire you can continue the radial action for several minutes and see if that frees things up. If so try to start the engine in neutral and see if you can get it in and through the gears.

If you are binding against the FW & input shaft this process may damage the end of the shaft slightly by galling but if the shaft was too long this will need to be machined off anyway and any galling which might occur on the FW will be at the bottom of the relief hole. That hole is there for clearance for the end of the shaft so the shaft won't be touching after you machine the end to the correct length so it really doesn't hurt anything.

I like the Idea Tom offers as a test only also but would not want to leave the washers which space it out as a permanent fix as the engine to adapter to bell housing is designed for max strength with all the perimeter faces mating with tension from the torquing of all the hardware. The strength with faces touching in the correct tension is significantly more than if only the bolts are securing with the washes spacing the faces from touching.

[mollydog]

I'm new to this T-5 conversion but in your post you said you are using a 10" clutch disc. I thought it was a 9" disc?? maybe you have the wrong disc and it is hanging up and not releasing? Just my 2c.

Mollydog

[House of Fab]

Originally Posted by AnthonyG

I like the Idea Tom offers as a test only also.....

Only meant this as a quick way to see if that is the problem - never for a permanent fix ....

Also, the amount of pedal throw vs your configuration has also given me some problems - usually it's not enough and consequently you can't get it to shift ....

And regarding the last post with 10 vs 9 inch disks - the T5 adapter does not care whether you are using the 9 or 10" clutch setup as long as you are using the right clutch disk to match your p-plate: 9" for the 9" disk, 10" for the 10" disk ....

Sorry - this is TomT responding but I'm at House of Fab right now fixing my roadster!

[AnthonyG]

Definitely a good check Tom.

[Barlea]

If the crank is pre '51, it does not have the large hole in the center that was provided for the torque converter of the Fordomatic on all '51 and later cranks, and therefore may not have clearance for the long input shaft end. Could be the reason that trimming is only sometimes needed? ..B.

[Jim NC]

I had a problem with my roadster. Used a new 9.5" pressure plate & the fingers were too close on the release bearing & binding. Replaced it with a 9" from Dennis Carpenter & it works perfect after re-drilling the original Merc flywheel. I'm using Cornhusker kit.

[35topdown]

The clutch disk could also be bent. Easily done durning installation or shipping. The excessive runout will cause this problem . The pressure plate only lifts the plate about .040" off the clutch disk when released. So any runout over .040" will cause it to drag. An incorrect adapter plate thickness could cause the input shaft to drag on the crank, as already suggested. I owned a clutch shop for 30 years and saw this many times. Whenever we built a clutch, it would get spun on an arbor shaft to check for runout. They can be easily straightned by hand. Just use some chalk while spinning it to find the high spots. Another thing to check is the release bearing travel. Once the bearing touches the fingers on the pressure plate, it requires about 3/8"-1/2" travel to release the clutch. Some brands of disks also have the retainer rivets that rub on the flywheel. I don't think the flathead flywheel has this problem, but it it something to check. I assume you did not put the disk in backwards. The spring retainer should go to the rear, towards the pressure plate. Your getting lots of good advice from the forum, so you will eventually get it figured out.
Richard

[Mike51Merc]

Is the disc really releasing? Put it in gear and then start the engine with the clutch pedal pressed. Will it start without rolling? Is the clutch burning?

[donald1950]

i have installed T-5s behind flat motors and c***y motors and what i have found in all cases that the clutch disk bottoms out on the end of the splines of the input shaft before the trans seats fully against the bellhousing. i had to take the preasure plate to my cluch and brake rebuilder and have the splined unriveted and re-riveted to the front side of the disk and also had them find a splined hub that has less offset to the trans side and more offset to the motor side. stock S10 hubs had this problem every time. to see, remove the hogs head inspection cover and remove the preasure plate and install just the disk on the input shaft, line up the trans on 4 long bolts with the heads cut off screwed into the bellhousing so the trans can be slid level slowly into place and see if the splines on the clutch disk bottom out on the splines on the input shaft before or just as the trans seats against the bellhousing i have had to do this on 4 different T5 installs as to release the disk there has got to be movenent of the disk on the flywheel with the trans bolted down tight. the last T5 install was in a 50 with a 350 crate motor, a nova bellhousing and the T5. so even being al chevy parts the S10 disk still had problems and had to be modified to work properly. if you want more info PM me and leave a phone # and i will call..... and i the same release problem as you.....

[35topdown]

Donald - good point. I have run into that same problem also, but didn't remember to put in my previous post. Any good clutch shop should be able to reverse the hub.

[Init1]

Thanks for your input. I will do some testing to determine if the clutch is releasing all the way. If not I will leave you my phone number so we can discuss what you have found.
This is the first time I have heard this in any of the articles I've read on T-5 conversions on a flathead or from any of the parts suppliers.

[donald1950]

Init1, its not so much that "the clutch is releasing all the way", its that the disk is forced hadr against the flywheel when the splines on the disk's hub bottom out on the input shaft end of the splines and force the disk against the flywheel. that disk has to slide on the splines and once it bottoms out it cannot slide back from the flywheel and you can only see whats happening with the preasure plate removed and looking through the inspection cover hole while sliding the trans into place.... i also had the flathead flywheel drilled to accept a GM ball bearing poilet bushing as teh ford poilet bushing is SAE and the T5 piolet shaft is metric and useing teh ford bushing with teh t5 input shaft will allow the T5 input shaft to wallow in the slightly larger hole. thats is another problem. so much fun........

[Init1]

Ok guys here's where I am:
With the motor idling at 600 rpm, push in the clutch with no noises, try any gear it will not go in. Will grind in reverse.
With the motor off it will shift into any gear with the clutch depressed and not depressed.
With the trans in neutral, start the motor and the car does not move.
With the trans in gear and clutch depressed to the floor, start the motor and the car
Does not move but a slight grinding gouging noise somewhere in the bell housing.
Let out the clutch and car moves.
With motor still running, shift into neutral but t h e shift lever is stiff.
I think something is too close to something causing the input shaft to spin
And not allowing the disc to move the correct distance.
Any more thoughts before I muster up enough energy to pull the tranny
And have a look?

[V8COOPMAN]

You've got it figured-out. SOMETHING is still rubbing, just enough to cause the disc to turn. Pull it apart! DD

[supereal]

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We used to have that problem when we installed a non stock engine with a bell housing adapter. The fix was to shim the face of the transmission one way or another and test for improvement. If the transmission is tilted even a very small amount, it causes the input shaft to bind.

[JSeery]

Yep, the problem is the input shaft is turning. Now all you have to do is figure it out. The one thing I would do before you pull it is back it out a little on washers and see if it makes any difference at all. It's an easy check that won't take much effort. You have lots of good inputs on here now to work on.

[Init1]

Plenty of great info and thanks to all. I'll try spacing with washers first to see if that solves the problem.

[Turdytoo]

I used a weird pilot bushing in my turboglide crankshaft 327 w/ t-5. Finally got it to free up by starting it in gear with clutch in. Motor leaked oil from rear main like you never seen. Dropped pan and found that the input shaft after the pilot
area was cutting into the pilot bushing..... and forcing crank forward eating up thrust and then spinning main bearing. I have built more SBC than I can count but never screwed up this bad before.

[donald1950]

bite the bullet and pull the trans and remove the preasure plate then slip the disk on the input shaft and you will find the disk is bottoming out on the input shaft splines. all what you say is exactly what i have gone through. that is what is locking up.....

[Flat32]

I had a problem with the same symptoms. Turned out to be the clutch disc hub springs hitting the flywheel to crank bolts. Cut about .040" off the tops of the bolts. Also had a situation where the rivets holding the disc hub assembly together, Hay's 10.5 disc, were rubbing on the flywheel. Had to cut the flywheel recess ID a little bigger about 1/16" deep.

Flat32

[Flat32]

Forgot to mention trans is a T5Z purchased new, crank is 4" Merc with a lightened Merc flywheel. Trans is bolted to a M.E.C. aluminum adapter on a 59 block and I had to shorten the input shaft a bit, maybe 1/2".

Flat32

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Flat32

Forgot to mention trans is a T5Z purchased new, crank is 4" Merc with a lightened Merc flywheel. Trans is bolted to a M.E.C. aluminum adapter on a 59 block and I had to shorten the input shaft a bit, maybe 1/2".

Flat32

Did you and do you still think you needed the 10.5 in clutch plate? How heavy is the car it is in and what rear gear are you running? I'm not sure that the flathead has enough torque to require the larger clutch on a light car with a low rear end gear. I am looking a running a 9 inch, the lower the rotating mass the faster it will accelerated. Any real world input on the clutch size?

[Init1]

Okay... pulled the tranny. Discovered the adjustment bolts on each of the arms are worn. One of them substantially thinner than the other 2.
This caused the portion of the bolts that protrude through the back
side of the arm to just touch the clutch plate springs making the noise heard when I depressed the clutch pedal all the way down
This also caused uneven pressure on the disc and would not allow the disc to fully
Disengage and causing the trans input shaft to continue spinning
No other signs of mis adjustment or damage. The shaft snout was not too long with plenty of clearance
Since the plate is original Ford I will have it rebuilt

Problem solved!