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Old 08-02-2010, 02:47 PM   #81
John R
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

As I recall, Ken Kloth's engine had a number of interesting features. Has any of these been documented in any detail in magazine articles or elsewhere? Be nice to learn more.
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Old 08-02-2010, 03:07 PM   #82
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

I'd love to hear from Kenny Kloth. That guy is amazing. He is to Flatheads what Karol Miller was to Y-blocks.
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Old 08-02-2010, 03:55 PM   #83
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Kloth's was unusually small in displacement for highly developed flatheads. This raises interesting questions about the nature of gains with big engines...
A big flathead can run more transfer area without excess loss of compression, but ports are stuck with the same limits and probably become the overall control to peak power possible.
Torque band should run higher/fatter in a big engine, good on street or broad-range racing...
But...is it fair to assume that at high end, fundamental port limits are going to set peak HP at about the same on big and small engines??
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Old 08-02-2010, 05:13 PM   #84
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

I think Bruce hit the nail on the head. Beyond that limit the only way to get an increase is forced induction.
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Old 08-02-2010, 05:37 PM   #85
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Quote:
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As I recall, Ken Kloth's engine had a number of interesting features. Has any of these been documented in any detail in magazine articles or elsewhere? Be nice to learn more.
Kenny's a local boy... I once got a peek at the silicone patterns he made for his combustion chambers. He bought blank heads from Offenhauser and carved the chambers himself, when he was finished, they bore an uncanny resemblance to the old Model A Police heads and came in at an unbelievable 6 to 1 compression ratio. That Merc would fly.
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Old 08-02-2010, 05:39 PM   #86
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Here are a few pictures of an 8ba I cut apart to see what it looks like'



This shows how the cylinder walls varies in thickness, it also shows a pit and how thin the wall is at the pit. This engine has been bored .080" over.





1

You have heard on milling your heads on an angle to tighten the combustion chamber up and to leave more area over the valves for lift. This shows the piston up against the head and still has the gap between the outer piston edge and the head, milling on an angle would help get rid of this.

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Old 08-02-2010, 06:11 PM   #87
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Really a 6:1 ratio ? I'm surprised the ratio isn't higher.
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:17 PM   #88
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I talked to Ken back in o2 and he was convinced that the ports couldn't feed a bigger engine. All his efforts were in making the engine berate better. Not bad for a 26? cube engine. I found that de-stroker rods and pistons, now all I have to do is find the crank.
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:59 AM   #89
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Re: the Kloth engine. Virtually all of the engine details have been published in one book or another. There are, however, three areas NOT discussed:
1) Port work
2) Cam timing details
3) Final head developement

At 267 cubic inches, I don't think the engine can really be considered small. Certainly smaller than what is currently available in "off the shelf" stroker assemblies, but not small. Further, whether the ports are a limiting factor or not, and I think they are, I have to believe any Flathead guy would be very happy with an output in the 280 HP + range, regardless of displacement. Keep in mind, this (Kloth engine) was one single carb (4 bbl), stock Merc crank, rods, etc. 6200 rpm shifts, 6000 rpm thru the traps. Yummy! makes me drool.

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Old 08-03-2010, 04:51 AM   #90
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
I talked to Ken back in o2 and he was convinced that the ports couldn't feed a bigger engine. All his efforts were in making the engine berate better. Not bad for a 26? cube engine. I found that de-stroker rods and pistons, now all I have to do is find the crank.
Hi Ron,
i`m still want the setup . Let me know when you find the crank
Michael
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:38 AM   #91
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Well, 267 is still half a litre down from where people start saying "Hey, that's a big flathead!"
It's only a little bigger than a Merc on its third rebuild.
On the compression...you have comp ratio, and you have actual comp pressure.
If the size of the engine actually allows it to fill cylinders well, pressure will be higher than if it is gasping for air and there is less in there to squeeze. Remember cylinder filling and max comp pressure are at torque peak, and as engine revs past that peak to power peak filling is dropping away. It would be interesting to know what the torque curve looks like on a highly developed 6200 RPM small engine versus a big one pulling 296 through there.
Flatdog's 12 second '34 coupe, which I got to drive on a long roadtrip, was shifted no higher than 5200...4-71 blown 307.
Torque curve did not actually curve as far as I could tell...it was monstrously high at all road speeds.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:20 AM   #92
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

I had forgotten that Kloth had made his own combustion chambers. I also recall that he used larger diameter cam journal bores and roller lifters. As Kahuna implies, the real innovations are still secret.
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:15 AM   #93
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I gather that most of the really serious racers make their own chambers. One of our local draggers used to run different brand heads left and right to annoy the peanut gallery...both had been welded flat and new chambers hand-carved to his supersecret recipe, so anything up there was irrelevant anyway.
Flatdog told me a bit about the superduper high-level telephone circuit with people like Kloth. No one would divulge anything substantial, especially the total shape of their chambers, but they would drop hints about flow experiments on something like effect of lowering the ceiling over the valves...if someone else was seeing similar trends, a few more hints would be exchanged. Very, very guarded. I am sure that if I had walked into Flatdog's garage unannounced when a chamber was exposed he would have had to kill me, even though I am nowhere near these high levels of scientific inquiry!
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:29 PM   #94
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Ken also bored the cam tunnel for a higher lift cam.
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:16 PM   #95
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

As some of you may know, Ken's engine and speeds were protested. The engine was torn down and the inspectors (no competitors) got a chance to look it over. It passed with "flying colors". At the time, there was considerable discussion among the competitors that the heads were the "Magic Bullet" that made the engine so powerful. A second set of identical heads was loaned to another competitor to try- Result? NO improvement. Just goes to show that it's always in the combination, not one specific item.
Oh, to know more--
BTW, I think Don (Flatdog) was beginning to find some of the "secrets", just before he passed away. He mentioned to me that he was seriously considering returning to a normally asperated engine configuration. Maybe Bruce can/will comment on some of the "Kitty Litter" experiments that Don did?
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:44 PM   #96
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He ran low-budget air flow studies using a monstrous vacuum cleaner and kitty litter shoveled into the airflow...really.
His engine that I was most familiar with was built as normally aspirated engine and was extensively flogged with different intakes, but stalled out in the 14's...car was 3,000 pounder. He skipped right on to his next step, the blower, on same engine. Times dropped repeatedly, sometimes by multiple tenths, as he jacked the pullet ratio, and car was soon running high 12's. Similar '34 streetrods with 350's were running in the 15's at one meet...
Engine went into a purchased altered after it twisted the '34 frame. This rig and new blower engine were under development at his untimely death.
He was a real scientist, postulatig theories and thoroughly testing them, analyzing problems from as many angles as he could find.

I got to drive the '34 home from the jalopy showdown to NJ...felt like a smooth, calm 400 inch musclecar, but it was faster...
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:41 PM   #97
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Thanks Bruce. I had heard that those litter tests were pretty informative. So sad that he passed away. Good guy
Jim
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:45 PM   #98
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I really miss Don, we had several discussions about porting and head design. He put me on the kitty litter and I tried that in several tests. Interesting results.
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:09 AM   #99
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

One serious thread I have been following, nothing to add..I'm not even worthy
to make asuggestion or a comment...but I do have a question, how are you guys "cutting apart" a block, for view?
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:14 AM   #100
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PS...I've seen 3? refernces to "Kitty Litter"...anyone want to explain?
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