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Old 12-12-2017, 03:20 AM   #41
Mart
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

180 degrees out ought to be ok. If you turn the crank 1 turn, the marks should align. If it were me, I'd pull the pulley to expose the keyway and check the dot is 3 full teeth around from the keyway in a clockwise direction. If the marks align, then it's find TDC and do the valve rocking sanity check.

Good luck, you're making good progress already. Wish I were closer.

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Old 12-12-2017, 09:01 AM   #42
George/Maine
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

The 8ba has a dot on pulley that is TDC. Now when you rock the valves were is the dot up top or down on cam gear. Up means you are on firing stroke and both valves are closed. Down and lining up dots means the intake is just opening.
Now if the dot is down you are out 180 degs for ign timing.
You have a coat hanger pointing to TDC.
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Old 12-12-2017, 09:02 AM   #43
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

If you have low compression on a fresh rebuild the cylinders are dry , put a few cc of oil in each cylinder before trying to start it [ the cylinders are most likely washed down from from trying to start it ] .
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:21 AM   #44
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

I will be trying some of the suggestions today. Going to pull the intake to get a look at where the valves are when this is sitting with dots aligned on cam and crank gears. Also going to see if I can find the original cam bolts and keeper to install. I know I have them somewhere. I will give each of the cylinders a couple squirts of mystery oil when I get ready to attempt to fire it again. I will be back later today with what I find.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:30 AM   #45
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

Don't forget to check where the rotor is in the dist when your at TDC. The part of the cycle that would fire #1.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:58 AM   #46
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

My question is if the dot was not visible, how would the person know where to mesh it with the cam in the first place during assembly? As mentioned before, the piston comes up to TDC on the exhaust stroke too so making sure both valves are closed is pretty crucial if you are doing this in the car.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:09 PM   #47
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

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Originally Posted by deuce_roadster View Post
My question is if the dot was not visible, how would the person know where to mesh it with the cam in the first place during assembly? As mentioned before, the piston comes up to TDC on the exhaust stroke too so making sure both valves are closed is pretty crucial if you are doing this in the car.
the "dot" is a certain number of teeth off of the keyway on the gear so you could do it that way. not a huge deal.

I would like to know what other things the builder did that make gordon think he shouldn't have touched a flathead though.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:40 PM   #48
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

The builder assembled the valve train and installed the guides and left out the guide retainers. Claimed they were press fit into the block and wouldn't move. He also said he wasn't sure how to get the crank and cam in time with each other. I had to explain that they had dots on them and all he had to do was bolt the cam gear to the cam (it only goes on one way with the bolt pattern it has) and align the dot on the cam with the one on the crank. Once I learned of these couple of things I questioned his ability to have done the work on this motor properly. I am not going to bash the guy in a public forum as I have heard good stuff about his Chevy small block and big block work, which he may be great at, but flatheads are not his forte. A lesson I learned too late. Plus he is not on here to defend himself. I would rather solve the issues I am now faced with and move forward...
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:16 PM   #49
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

wow... left off the retainer clips! that's flathead 101. that would scare me to death. did he put the galley plugs in?? did he clean the galley out?? crank plugs?? and as I questioned before, did he do the valve job correctly... when you pull the head i would pop out a valve and check the fit... make sure it's lapped in correctly and you have a good seal all the way around the seat.
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:29 PM   #50
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonC View Post
Guys I think I found it!! Here is a pic if I can get the darn thing to load.... interestingly enough the cam gear is almost exactly 180 degrees off from this dot. For some reason pictures are rotating 90 degrees on me when I upload them to this site. Doesn't do that on the HAMB?
Looking at the dot shown in post #20, the dot is not centered on the tooth. Usually they are right in the middle. When the dot is at 12 o'clock, the key for the crank pulley should be at about 10:30.
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:51 PM   #51
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

You definitely have a timing gear alignment problem if you only have 50 lbs. of pressure on "all" the cylinders. That is not enough pressure to fire a cylinder. They don't always backfire if when the timing gears are not aligned properly. Especially if they are off so far they are not creating enough compression.

As far as knowing if you have the distributor in correctly. Just put a timing light on it, while you are cranking the engine and see if the timing marks are close. Don't forget to turn the key on. The light will flash every time #1 fires, it will just flash really slow. Set it where it needs to be while cranking the engine before you ever attempt to start a new engine. The timing will change a little when the engine starts and you will probably need to make a slight timing adjustment. I also always take an old oil squirt can filled with fuel and fill up the float bowl and make sure the accelerator pump is primed and squirting. Pull the plugs and crank it until you get oil pressure. Then stick the plugs back in and it "should" fire-up immediately.

Most mechanics are taught that the furthest forward cylinder on a V8 is always #1. That works on every V8 engine I know but a flathead. That's one of things that if you have worked on cars a lot you might just assume number #1 is the most forward cylinder so you would end up having the firing order wrong. Just like you would assume the long brake shoe goes towards the rear and the short one towards the front. That theory don't work either on Early Fords. And ground is not ground.
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Old 12-12-2017, 02:31 PM   #52
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

revkev6 I had to replace all the guides, which I did. I had provided all new valves and valve seats and they appeared to be installed correctly when I had the guides out. I marked all valves prior to uninstalling them. I then installed the new guides and returned all valves to the cyl they came out of and lapped them at that point. I have no way of knowing for sure what all he did or didn't do as the engine came back to me assembled with the oil pan on and timing cover on. I put the intake, water pumps, and starter on and installed it in my project roadster. At this point without completely tearing this engine down I just want to see if it will run properly. If it doesn't it will come out and I will get another probably completely stock runner if possible. I am so tired of all the crap that has gone on around this engine.

flatjack9 all the crank gears I saw had the dot centered on the tooth as well. This one is not, but I think it is there more to indicate the tooth to be used for alignment than the exact dead nuts position. Plus I cannot see the keyway without pulling the front pulley off and I am trying not to do more work than is necessary to get this squared away.
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Old 12-12-2017, 02:33 PM   #53
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

You need some good info from years ago.
Take the pulley and gear off and look at the pic.
Note the keyway is to the right dot to left.
Just line up the dots as shown.
Take any cylinder and check for compression.
I'm sure it will be better then 50lbs.





Just do like pic and if the ign timing is off ,its easy to turn dist use the thumb way for TDC
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Old 12-12-2017, 02:43 PM   #54
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

Ok, on with the show!

I pulled the intake. With the cam and crank dots aligned I made a mark on the pulley where my temp pointer was pointing. I set this pointer up while the pulley dot was in the same position as it was for the pointer on the timing cover. I then took pictures of the valves on cyl #1 and #6. I then moved the crank so the dot on the pulley was lined up with the pointer and took pictures of the valves again. I am not knowledgeable enough to know what I should be looking for so am going to try to post the pics.

First set with cam and crank dots aligned. First pic is of valves in cyl #1 while looking in from the drivers side. Second pic is for cyl #6 looking in from the passenger side.
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Old 12-12-2017, 02:47 PM   #55
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

Second set of pics. First pic is of pulley dot at pointer. Second pic is the valves in cyl #1 looking in from drivers side. Last pic is the valves in cyl #6 looking in from the passenger side.
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Old 12-12-2017, 02:53 PM   #56
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

Flathead Fever the timing light check will not tell you if the distributor is wiried 180 out. It's an easy check to remove the cap and check the rotor position.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:28 PM   #57
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

I can't see the gears and marks. I don't like to see shiny parts all painted nice.
Pull the pulley and show the marks like the pic get it.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:34 PM   #58
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonC View Post
The builder assembled the valve train and installed the guides and left out the guide retainers. Claimed they were press fit into the block and wouldn't move. He also said he wasn't sure how to get the crank and cam in time with each other. I had to explain that they had dots on them and all he had to do was bolt the cam gear to the cam (it only goes on one way with the bolt pattern it has) and align the dot on the cam with the one on the crank. Once I learned of these couple of things I questioned his ability to have done the work on this motor properly. I am not going to bash the guy in a public forum as I have heard good stuff about his Chevy small block and big block work, which he may be great at, but flatheads are not his forte. A lesson I learned too late. Plus he is not on here to defend himself. I would rather solve the issues I am now faced with and move forward...




So this expert in agent orange engines decides he can build a Flathead what a joke. Do yourself a big favor DO NOT run this engine until someone who knows exactly whats needed for a Flathead rebuild looks this engine over completely.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:37 PM   #59
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George/Maine View Post
I can't see the gears and marks. I don't like to see shiny parts all painted nice.
Pull the pulley and show the marks like the pic get it.
george, he already posted that he got the dots to line up just by rotating the crank around... he had to look a little closer at the crank to see the dot.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:07 PM   #60
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Default Re: Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

Have you changed the gears and moved them at all.
What you should if you want to fix this.
Pull the crank gear and see if it looks like the pic I posted.
Key way to right dot to left.
If you have it on backwards no good.
MacsAuto shows a gear stamped wrong.
I trust my book.
Ford made it simple. right gear, mark correct ,just line up marks.
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