Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-17-2016, 04:26 PM   #201
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 11,106
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Man, I sure hate to rain on your already wet day, and I sure hope that I'm just seeing this picture at a disadvantaged angle, but those threads surely do look flat......and kind'a spooky. Tell me I'm wrong! DD

__________________
Click Links Below __


'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN


T5 W/TORQUE TUBE
V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2016, 04:38 PM   #202
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
Man, I sure hate to rain on your already wet day, and I sure hope that I'm just seeing this picture at a disadvantaged angle, but those threads surely do look flat......and kind'a spooky. Tell me I'm wrong! DD

It's the camera in my phone Coop..camera is focused on the extension cord and pic is fuzzy. I noticed in the spider cup picture it looks like there's .020 gouges dug into it from the spiders but there's not...can barely feel them. The carrier bearings look like in the picture that they've been run through gravel but they look pretty good in real life. I was going to chase the axle threads just to clean them up.
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-17-2016, 04:44 PM   #203
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Does anybody know what the diameter (and tolerance) is for the ID of the rear wheel bearings (OD of bearing race on the axle housings)?
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2016, 04:59 PM   #204
ford38v8
Senior Member
 
ford38v8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,616
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Rainy in Michigan, what a surprise! After a bit, I'll be jumping into my pool here in Sunny California! (gotta rub it in). On the pin, I'd advise you to get a new one. One end is mushroom, the other end is peened. While re-use is certainly possible, it's the cheapest part you'll buy, while having a high dollar potential damage to the driveline if it fails.

It never occurred to me to recheck the pinion bearing preload. Not a bad idea, good on ya. Ford literature on that procedure is sadly lacking in real world experience. The following is much easier and frankly, more consistently accurate: Having only the banjo with pinion assembled, it is positioned pinion shaft down in a bench vise, locked tightly by the pinion shaft. With both hands, spin the banjo strong and fast as you can. Correct preload will prevent free spin, stopping the banjo at no more than one full revolution.

While handling the banjo and housings, it is easy to nick the mating surfaces, creating burrs. These must be dressed down with a file. Take care to not file beyond flush. Do not chase threads on banjo or bolts, as they are correct with interference fitting. Obtain two sets of housing gaskets, the first set to be modified for quick positioning-repositioning between left and right sides by splitting the full circles, and opening the bolt holes. Housings will then remain assembled, merely loosened to allow trading of the (tool) gaskets. If done with care, these gaskets become a valuable time saver in gaging backlash, while the actual gaskets remain pristine. Final assembly will require thread sealer, after which the remaining sealer squish on the outside can be easily removed before it sets up.
__________________
Alan
ford38v8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2016, 05:18 PM   #205
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

38v8. During restoration, I replaced the banjo bolts with stainless bolts for the "effect" and amazingly, they didn't leak. I have original bolts on the way to replace the stainless ones I had in there.
I just cleaned the banjo and pinion gear with solvent. I don't get any play back and forth in the pinion but I can easily turn it (with driveline and torque tube still attached) with the tip of my thump. It doesn't "coast" beyond me pushing it but it might if the drive shaft wasn't still attached. I'm going to pull the torque tube and I'll need to order a new drive shaft pin...or I could use a 16 penny nail like my dad would have done...LOL. That's a good idea about having "tool" gaskets...with any luck, this will be my first and last dive into a banjo (at least for this car) so I ordered one set and will start with the same thicknesses that I removed since I'm not changing anything. I'll check then make whatever adjustments I need.
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2016, 06:25 PM   #206
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Did the dye penetrant test on my other axle...appears to be in good shape.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0729.jpg (64.9 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0730.jpg (65.4 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0732.jpg (53.4 KB, 56 views)
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 11:01 AM   #207
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Pulled the torque tube this morning and unpinned the driveline. The pinion wasn't loose but it freewheeled. With the spline in the vice and a good spin of the housing...it spun somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15 times. I pulled the nuts and removed the outer bearing to inspect and clean. The outer bearing and race looked great...noticed "Timken" and a Ford script on the bearing as well. Put it back together and snugged it up to the point where I get slightly more than one turn on the spin test. Seems tight to me but I trust you guys. I can grab the splines in my fist and turn it but it's stiff. I need to get a coupling pin ordered.
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 11:17 AM   #208
ford38v8
Senior Member
 
ford38v8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,616
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

All I can add here is the Ford script / Timkin in serviceable condition is likely better than anything else off the shelf today!

You didn't mention... The nut locking plate? (for lack of proper name) Reused and can be relied on?
__________________
Alan
ford38v8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 11:27 AM   #209
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ford38v8 View Post
All I can add here is the Ford script / Timkin in serviceable condition is likely better than anything else off the shelf today!

You didn't mention... The nut locking plate? (for lack of proper name) Reused and can be relied on?
I reused the nut locking plate. It only had 2 of the tabs bent and I ended up using two of the other previously unused tabs.
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 11:43 AM   #210
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Kirk View Post
Seems tight to me but I trust you guys. I can grab the splines in my fist and turn it but it's stiff. I need to get a coupling pin ordered.
Preload should be a heavy drag, around 15 ft-lb if you are checking it to get it to start moving.

Note: I misstated something earlier, I was reading Tardels new booklet on rear axle rebuilds. In the first quick scan of it I didn't notice him using any measurements to check preloads. That was INCORRECT! On a little more detailed reading on page 42 he shows the checking of the pinion preload with a torque wrench.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 12:30 PM   #211
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Preload should be a heavy drag, around 15 ft-lb if you are checking it to get it to start moving.

Note: I misstated something earlier, I was reading Tardels new booklet on rear axle rebuilds. In the first quick scan of it I didn't notice him using any measurements to check preloads. That was INCORRECT! On a little more detailed reading on page 42 he shows the checking of the pinion preload with a torque wrench.
I went out to figure out what I could use to get a torque wrench onto the end of the splines. I thought I'd try a socket to see if that might work. The first one I grabbed was my oil pressure sender socket...ta-da...slid right on and worked good enough to check pre-load. I don't have a beam type torque wrench and my "clink" one didn't cut the mustard.
Now that I've had the bearing pack flooded with Lucas assembly lube, the pre load feels a lot better to the hand...certainly a lot more snug than it was!!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0741.jpg (49.8 KB, 29 views)
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 12:39 PM   #212
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

I have several of the click style torque wrenches, but still find the old beam type are useful for a lot of things. Do you happen to have an inch-lb wrench? You can just convert the ft-lbs to in-lbs.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 12:43 PM   #213
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,733
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Careful, guys, 15 ft lbs sounds high to me, I'm sure when I have heard it quoted before it was in lbs INCHES I don't know the figure.

I'm interested because I have an axle apart and will be putting it back together soon when a bearing separator/puller arrives. first one I've done.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 12:47 PM   #214
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

I was just quoting Tardel, if it's a type-o, he is consistent as it is quoted in more than one place.

I just checked a couple of other references and they call out 15 in-lbs. So, needs a little more checking into. As I have stated several times, this is not how I go about it and I have not checked the preload with a measuring device myself!

Last edited by JSeery; 09-18-2016 at 12:56 PM.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 12:57 PM   #215
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,733
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

I just found a very good thread on the hamb on this subject. Unfortunately the pictures have gone awol. I have cut this line from it though:
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs."

I'd go with the inch pounds numbers.

Mart.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 01:09 PM   #216
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart View Post
I just found a very good thread on the hamb on this subject. Unfortunately the pictures have gone awol. I have cut this line from it though:
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs."

I'd go with the inch pounds numbers.

Mart.
LOL, I just read the same thread. A few post further down may explain the confusion. The original specs were with a direct pull spring scale and are in pounds. The confusion is the conversion of direct pull in pounds to torque values.

If you are interested Mart I believe the poster of the thread you referenced claims he couldn't find any specification for the preload so used a modern rear axle value.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 01:10 PM   #217
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

This is a quote from a thread on HAMB.

"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs. then I tighten up the last big nut I used lock tight on the threads. "

This was a quote from Van Pelts.

"Install the adjusting and lock nuts (4634), with the lock washer (4636) between them, and tighten the nuts so that the sleeve turns on the bearing cones with a heavy drag * and no end play. Lock the adjustment by bending the tabs of the washer against the side of the nuts. (* Ford spec was 12-17 inch pounds)."
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 01:24 PM   #218
ford38v8
Senior Member
 
ford38v8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,616
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart View Post
I just found a very good thread on the hamb on this subject. Unfortunately the pictures have gone awol. I have cut this line from it though:
"And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs."

I'd go with the inch pounds numbers.

Mart.
This makes sense. The used bearings having mated with the races should offer less resistance. I'm thinking the one revolution spin advice should be revised to reflect the used bearing condition? Cap Kirk stated that his preload spin ended up "slightly more than one spin", so maybe up that to 1 1/2 ~ 2 spins would be safer? His "as found" having been freewheeling 10-15 spins with bearings mated does raise some question here.
__________________
Alan
ford38v8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 01:26 PM   #219
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

This is from the HAMB thread referenced, he is using Ford 9 inch and 8.8 inch specifications as a "similar to" for his values.

"Not being able to find any preload specs for the diff preload I used the preload specs for a pinion bearing from some Ford Motorsports read end instructions. With new bearings I was shooting for a number between 16 in lbs and 28 in lbs. I needed to take more shim out. Took the top bell off and removed the .005 shim gasket. And the left the two .007’s Bolted the bell back on and came up with 22 in lbs of for the preload on the diff bearings. That sounded good to me."


Somewhere else he refers to using Ford 9 in and 8.8 in rear axle values.

VanPelts numbers should be good but it is interesting that his is the original Ford spring-scale values now being used as in-lb values! The original Ford specification was 12 to 17 pounds.

Last edited by JSeery; 09-18-2016 at 01:48 PM.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2016, 01:52 PM   #220
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

When Van Pelts says to tighten till it has "heavy drag"...mine now has less than heavy drag but quite a bit more than it did when I first got it apart. My bearings have been mated for 76 years so my logic is telling me that a bit less preload would be ok.

Is there a method of wrapping the splines with string with an eye at the end and using a fishing scale? JSeery...is this what you're talking about when you say "spring scale"?
Since the spline shaft isn't 2" in diameter, 12-17 pounds on the scale does not equate to 12-17 in-lbs. The shaft diameter is 1.1"...17x(1.1 / 2)= 9.35 in-lb
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:18 AM.