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Old 11-13-2014, 03:25 PM   #1
FrankWest
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Default 1933 can't start after recent restart

Started my model B yesterday..aftee 20 years
ran great. Ran for one hour yesterday and One hour today. Nice solid sound. Today backed out of my garage and motor stalled.
Can't restart.
Thought out of gas.... Added more gas... gas in fuel pump.
While turning over I notice that the ammeter on tyhe insterment panel in not moving at all but dead stationary?
Could an electrical component have failed?
Did not check to see if i have a spark yet.
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Old 11-13-2014, 03:35 PM   #2
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

A wise ole' mechanic always told me...."as long as we are talking, it takes two things for a motor to run, gas and spark!" so you know you have gas.........!!!! I'd check the points and accompanying resistors. Figure out why you have no spark!!!!! (if you in fact are getting gas)
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Old 11-13-2014, 03:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

By the way, if the 33 you speak of is the picture in your avatar?? We have the same exact car too. What's the #of yours???
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Old 11-13-2014, 05:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

The starter motor electrical circuit is not routed through the ammeter so that telltale is not indicative of an electrical problem per se. Check for spark next.
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Old 11-13-2014, 05:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by DavidG View Post
Frank,

The starter motor electrical circuit is not routed through the ammeter so that telltale is not indicative of an electrical problem per se. Check for spark next.
the starter is operating normally and the engine is turning.
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Old 11-13-2014, 05:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I'd suspect something came loose like an ignition switch terminal nut or coil terminal.

Lonnie
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Old 11-13-2014, 06:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

[QUOTE=FrankWest;980291.......Did not check to see if i have a spark yet.[/QUOTE]

Next time you post, please tell us you have checked for spark.
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Old 11-13-2014, 07:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Ignition points in long stored vehicle often fail quickly after a restart due to the oxide on the contact faces. If you have power to the coil, but no spark, or weak spark, the distributor needs to be repaired and set up on a machine.
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Old 11-13-2014, 07:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I think BINX nailed it.
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Old 11-14-2014, 04:09 AM   #10
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

"the distributor needs to be repaired and set up on a machine."

If the points ARE fouled, why would the distributor need "repaired?" ... and why set up on a machine? It's a Model B.
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Old 11-14-2014, 06:18 AM   #11
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I think Supereal was referring to a V8.

Just clean the points up and make sure the distributor rotor (or cam) is nice and smooth. It is true that points can wear quickly after long storage due to roughness on the rotor.

Of course it could be something else, but that is an easy thing to try first.

Mart.
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Old 11-14-2014, 08:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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I think Supereal was referring to a V8.

Just clean the points up and make sure the distributor rotor (or cam) is nice and smooth. It is true that points can wear quickly after long storage due to roughness on the rotor.

Of course it could be something else, but that is an easy thing to try first.

Mart.
Will do, thanks
It is freezing out here!
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

The machine reference was for the V8. My trifocals weren't working, I guess. Even so, be sure that the body and bushing is OK when replacing the points. The problem could also be due to a weak or open condenser, or a loose distributor mount that allowed it to move.
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Old 11-14-2014, 11:40 AM   #14
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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The machine reference was for the V8. My trifocals weren't working, I guess. Even so, be sure that the body and bushing is OK when replacing the points. The problem could also be due to a weak or open condenser, or a loose distributor mount that allowed it to move.

NO SPARK!

Where can I find a photo of the key electrical components. so that I can check the connections. I have several ford books on the 1933, 1934
It was running beautiful and sounded like a new car and then just went.
I suspect something like the coil? is there a coil?
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Old 11-14-2014, 03:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Didn't I post one (an illustration, not a photo of the four-cylinder electrical system) earlier for you?

Coil failures are not unknown, although much rarer with an original 4-cylinder coil than with a V-8 coil of the same era, and you have a coil. The original location was on the upper vertical portion of the firewall, more or less in the center, on the inside of the car. It shows in a photo that was posted along with the above referenced illustration.
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Old 11-14-2014, 05:33 PM   #16
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, trace the HT wire back from the centre of the distributor cap. On the other end of it is the coil.

Tried cleaning the points yet?

Mart.
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Old 11-14-2014, 05:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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By the way, if the 33 you speak of is the picture in your avatar?? We have the same exact car too. What's the #of yours???
My car was manufactured in July 1933
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Old 11-14-2014, 05:44 PM   #18
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Didn't I post one (an illustration, not a photo of the four-cylinder electrical system) earlier for you?

Coil failures are not unknown, although much rarer with an original 4-cylinder coil than with a V-8 coil of the same era, and you have a coil. The original location was on the upper vertical portion of the firewall, more or less in the center, on the inside of the car. It shows in a photo that was posted along with the above referenced illustration.
I found the ignition coil and I will try to trace the wires.
But, my ammeter has stopped moving since the problem. Befire the ammeter was jumping around during starting and when the car was running. Where shoudl I look next if i find no loose wires?
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Old 11-14-2014, 05:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Check the connection on the back of the Ign. switch.
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Old 11-14-2014, 06:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Frank, trace the HT wire back from the centre of the distributor cap. On the other end of it is the coil.

Tried cleaning the points yet?

Mart.
I took the cap off but how do you get to the points?
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Old 11-14-2014, 06:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidG View Post
Didn't I post one (an illustration, not a photo of the four-cylinder electrical system) earlier for you?

Coil failures are not unknown, although much rarer with an original 4-cylinder coil than with a V-8 coil of the same era, and you have a coil. The original location was on the upper vertical portion of the firewall, more or less in the center, on the inside of the car. It shows in a photo that was posted along with the above referenced illustration.
If that was you that sent that, I great appreciate it.... there was a photo of the lights fuse and a diagram of the electrical...It was great... I am just trying to find it.
I recently had my computer crash and I am using another computer....
I will check under the fuse question...I think that is where you posted it.
Thanks... It was great...The photo was exactly like my car.

Last edited by FrankWest; 11-14-2014 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 11-14-2014, 07:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidG View Post
Didn't I post one (an illustration, not a photo of the four-cylinder electrical system) earlier for you?

Coil failures are not unknown, although much rarer with an original 4-cylinder coil than with a V-8 coil of the same era, and you have a coil. The original location was on the upper vertical portion of the firewall, more or less in the center, on the inside of the car. It shows in a photo that was posted along with the above referenced illustration.
Here's you post! Thanks for the drawing! I greatly appreciate it!
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File Type: pdf 33-34 four cylinder wiring.pdf (575.7 KB, 76 views)
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Old 11-14-2014, 07:03 PM   #23
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Check the connection on the back of the Ign. switch.
will do
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:42 AM   #24
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Still no spark
High tension wire badly crystallized and fractured
Replaced
No spark
New Development
Noticed badly frayed wires connected to battery junction (-) wire under steering
box in engine compartment. One wire comes from inside, Maybe ignition switch?) and another one to lights
May have eventually shorted as car was running?
I need some help in a picture of this connection under steering box.
I need to replace these exposed wires, but need to know what they are?
Any help will be appreciated.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:59 AM   #25
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

The wires under the sterering box are for your lights and horn.

There is a single glass fuse on the backside of the dash, drivers side. Check it. It it is broke the engine will crank but no spark. Your problem is more then likley extremly simple.
If the fuse is good, get a test light and with the ignition "on", touch the point plate inside the distributor. If it lights up that tells you there is power to the distributor (eliminating the electrical on the switch inside the car)
If it does not light up, trace back and see where the test light lights up, and you will find your problem.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:59 AM   #26
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Those ought to be the light switch wires and maybe the horn.

Mart.
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Old 11-28-2014, 12:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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The wires under the sterering box are for your lights and horn.

There is a single glass fuse on the backside of the dash, drivers side. Check it. It it is broke the engine will crank but no spark. Your problem is more then likley extremly simple.
If the fuse is good, get a test light and with the ignition "on", touch the point plate inside the distributor. If it lights up that tells you there is power to the distributor (eliminating the electrical on the switch inside the car)
If it does not light up, trace back and see where the test light lights up, and you will find your problem.
Thanks

Is that a 20 AMP fuse?
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Old 11-28-2014, 12:16 PM   #28
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Thanks

Is that a 20 AMP fuse?

Yes, I belive so...but it should say on the fuse
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:09 PM   #29
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Unless it has been modified, the fuse is for the lighting circuit only. The ignition wiring was not routed through the fuse originally.
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Unless it has been modified, the fuse is for the lighting circuit only. The ignition wiring was not routed through the fuse originally.
This wiring diagram and the fuse function is confusing...are you sure the fuse is only for the lights.
This diagram is from the ford 1933/1934 restoration manual
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:45 PM   #31
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, follow the "Y" wire. The starter switch is fed from the battery, the yellow "Y" wire goes from the starter switch to the ammeter. Then the "YB" wire goes to the ignition switch. The ignition is not fed through the fuse.

All the lights are fed from the "YB" wire from the other side of the fuse.

The diagram is very simple, it should be easy to follow. I find it best to just concentrate on one wire or circuit at a time.

Mart.
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Old 11-28-2014, 07:00 PM   #32
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Mart,

Well said (follow one wire at a time).
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Old 11-28-2014, 07:44 PM   #33
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

As stated above, the voltage coming from the battery hits one side of the fuse block. The other side of the fuse block is the light circuit.
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Old 11-28-2014, 07:48 PM   #34
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As stated above, the voltage coming from the battery hits one side of the fuse block. The other side of the fuse block is the light circuit.
I have had that fuse blow 3 times since my car quit 2 weeks ago.
Could the generator cutoff be shorted resulting in a blown fuse?
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Old 11-28-2014, 07:54 PM   #35
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Post a picture of your fuse block. Has any of the wiring been changed or moved around since you have been troubleshooting this problem?
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:15 PM   #36
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Post a picture of your fuse block. Has any of the wiring been changed or moved around since you have been troubleshooting this problem?
No... and I think the fuse block is original... because I compared it with a photo sent to me ny someone on this forum under " where is the fuse"

THose wires under the steering block were badly frayed with exposed wires and bird caged vould these have shored out to the steering frame that may be positive right because of the positive battery terminal connected to the frame,
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:21 PM   #37
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

fuse box and under dash wiring
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:32 PM   #38
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

If you have frayed wires, they are the #1 suspect in determining why you are blowing fuses. Nearly every metal part on your car acts as a ground and any bare wire in the lighting system touching a nearby metal part will blow the fuse. At least you know that the fuse-blowing problem is confined to the lighting electrical circuit and not caused elsewhere in the electrical system.
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:49 PM   #39
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Do you know how to use a volt ohms meter and a test light. They will really help.
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:52 PM   #40
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If you have frayed wires, they are the #1 suspect in determining why you are blowing fuses. Nearly every metal part on your car acts as a ground and any bare wire in the lighting system touching a nearby metal part will blow the fuse. At least you know that the fuse-blowing problem is confined to the lighting electrical circuit and not caused elsewhere in the electrical system.
But this problem would not kill the spark right?
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:11 PM   #41
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

You would need 6 volts going to the starter switch, and continuity for the ammeter lead, generator cutout, and ignition switch, to start the engine and charge the battery. The ammeter, generator cutout, and ignition switch leads should all be connected, (common), at one end of the fuse block. That will be the "hot" side.
Forget the blowing fuse for now. That only controls the lighting system as previously mentioned. Just get the engine running, then plan on a complete wire harness replacement. It will eliminate future headaches. With wiring that old, it just isn't worth the time to try to splice and repair all of the worn and broken conductors.
Does that help?
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:21 PM   #42
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Do you know how to use a volt ohms meter and a test light. They will really help.
yes
I have a cheap volt meter
I mainly us it for contuinity check but have also measured the voltage at 6.2 volts from my battery so I can use that.
a test light may be better because otherwise I have to hold the flashlight in my teeth.

continuity i understand open give infinite resistance.
Taking the measure readings gets confusing as to where I place the probes.
I guess from - wire to positive or the frame.
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:26 PM   #43
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

To test the continuity of a conductor, you are just making sure that the conductor, (wire), has a continuous path from end to end. Just place one probe of the ohms meter to one end of the conductor, and the other probe to the opposite end of the conductor. Look at the ohms meter to determine if you have a short. Which you should. It's best to have alligator clips on the meter probe tips for this.
If you do not see a short when doing this, you have an open condition in that conductor. (Broken wire)
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:35 PM   #44
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You would need 6 volts going to the starter switch, and continuity for the ammeter lead, generator cutout, and ignition switch, to start the engine and charge the battery. The ammeter, generator cutout, and ignition switch leads should all be connected, (common), at one end of the fuse block. That will be the "hot" side.
Forget the blowing fuse for now. That only controls the lighting system as previously mentioned. Just get the engine running, then plan on a complete wire harness replacement. It will eliminate future headaches. With wiring that old, it just isn't worth the time to try to splice and repair all of the worn and broken conductors.
Does that help?
Sounds great, thanks a lot. I plan to replace. 80 year old wiring in the walls of a home are bad enough I can just imagine 80 year old wiring exposed to the weather It was amazing that this car worked at all. The motor really sounded smooth and quiet
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:45 PM   #45
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

When you replace the wiring don't try and do it yourself using bulk wire from the local auto parts store. Buy a harness from one of the suppliers, it will be cheaper and better in the long run. See the archives for who is best and/or post the question.

Charlie Stephens

Last edited by Charlie Stephens; 11-28-2014 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 11-29-2014, 12:55 AM   #46
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, Where are you located? There are so many V8ers out there very willing and capable of helping you get your beautiful car running, they can do it all or give you personal one-on-one instruction if you like. You just have to get that thing running, you owe it to yourself and to your Ford!

Tell us where you are? What city? We can help in person, but it's so hard by this long distance method!
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Old 11-29-2014, 05:05 AM   #47
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

If it is wired right, there is a problem in the lighting circuits causing the fuse to blow, and you are right, the fuse blowing would not stop the ignition from working.

Coincidentally, Frank, your coil is visible in the top of that pic. You were asking about that before. It may be worth looking at both the HT and low tension wires to and from that coil.

(I wrote this as a reply to the last post on page 2, missed the posts above.)

Frank, it's worth getting a "headlight" type flashlight that sits on a strap round your forehead. Very helpful when working in these out of the way areas.

Mart.

Last edited by Mart; 11-29-2014 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 11-29-2014, 07:12 AM   #48
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Smile Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I had a similar experence with a 32 ""B"" Wagon after a tour of over 1000 miles. The owner wanted the car moved to a different location before snow came. Started on a cold N.E morning som was letting it warm before moving it. As we wee taalging it just quit ! It turned out to be the condenser. justmy experience. Kerk
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Old 11-29-2014, 10:28 AM   #49
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If it is wired right, there is a problem in the lighting circuits causing the fuse to blow, and you are right, the fuse blowing would not stop the ignition from working.

Coincidentally, Frank, your coil is visible in the top of that pic. You were asking about that before. It may be worth looking at both the HT and low tension wires to and from that coil.

(I wrote this as a reply to the last post on page 2, missed the posts above.)

Frank, it's worth getting a "headlight" type flashlight that sits on a strap round your forehead. Very helpful when working in these out of the way areas.

Mart.
I appreciated your good advice before and replaced the HT wire because it as badly crystallized and insulation was off inseveral places and it broke as I twisted it. It thought that may be it.
But had to replace it anyway. Replaced the coil and condenser too.
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Old 11-29-2014, 10:35 AM   #50
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by ford38v8 View Post
Frank, Where are you located? There are so many V8ers out there very willing and capable of helping you get your beautiful car running, they can do it all or give you personal one-on-one instruction if you like. You just have to get that thing running, you owe it to yourself and to your Ford!

Tell us where you are? What city? We can help in person, but it's so hard by this long distance method!
I plan to keep working on it.
I love this car!
It is 99%original and I want to keep it that way.
produced in July of 1933 it has special significance for me.
Thanks for all your help.
I will call in the experts if everything I try does not work.
I actually have a spare rebuild model B motor and trans too. I bought them
because I plan to drive this car until I die.
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:51 AM   #51
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by CC33 View Post
You would need 6 volts going to the starter switch, and continuity for the ammeter lead, generator cutout, and ignition switch, to start the engine and charge the battery. The ammeter, generator cutout, and ignition switch leads should all be connected, (common), at one end of the fuse block. That will be the "hot" side.
Forget the blowing fuse for now. That only controls the lighting system as previously mentioned. Just get the engine running, then plan on a complete wire harness replacement. It will eliminate future headaches. With wiring that old, it just isn't worth the time to try to splice and repair all of the worn and broken conductors.
Does that help?

with ignition switch on
Have 6 volts at switch
6 volts at each coil terminal of brand new ignition coil
6 volts at generator cutoff
Test spark with spark/ coil polarity tester....NOthing lit up.
NO spark through Band new HT wire!!!!!
Looks like nothing is going thru my HT wire????
Could this new coil be bad?????
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:19 AM   #52
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I'd be looking at the points.

Bob
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:39 AM   #53
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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with ignition switch on
Have 6 volts at switch
6 volts at each coil terminal of brand new ignition coil
6 volts at generator cutoff
Test spark with spark/ coil polarity tester....NOthing lit up.
NO spark through Band new HT wire!!!!!
Looks like nothing is going thru my HT wire????
Could this new coil be bad?????
Unfortunately, unlike in the old days, a coil (or any part) being new doesn't necessarily mean it is good. Don't replace too many parts at one time or you may end up looking for multiple problems. I once helped a person start a Model A. It turned out his points were adjusted too wide and didn't close. Did you check the voltage on both sides of the points?

Charlie Stephens
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:46 PM   #54
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Unfortunately, unlike in the old days, a coil (or any part) being new doesn't necessarily mean it is good. Don't replace too many parts at one time or you may end up looking for multiple problems. I once helped a person start a Model A. It turned out his points were adjusted too wide and didn't close. Did you check the voltage on both sides of the points?

Charlie Stephens
I will check now....should one point be 0 volts and the other one 6 volts?
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:57 PM   #55
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

If your points are about .014-,015 both, remove to condense wire and use the ohms scale. turn over engine and should see make and brake.
With the point wire off coil place meter there on volts. other end on battery neg.
should read about 5 volts if under dash resister is hooked up.
Also check the end of wire connector at coil make sure it not held on by few strands on wire.
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Old 12-01-2014, 02:41 PM   #56
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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If your points are about .014-,015 both, remove to condense wire and use the ohms scale. turn over engine and should see make and brake.
With the point wire off coil place meter there on volts. other end on battery neg.
should read about 5 volts if under dash resister is hooked up.
Also check the end of wire connector at coil make sure it not held on by few strands on wire.
I pulled the hT wire out of the distributor and measure 6 volts with the ignition on.
So I guess the problem is with the distributor??
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:03 PM   #57
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

If I slowly hand crank the engine to see how close the points gets at the closest point and what should that distance be? 0.15 inch
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:07 PM   #58
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

The points should close. If they never close, the car will never run. They should open approx. .015 every time a cylinder fires, and then close again. DD
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:45 PM   #59
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I don't know why you put the meter in the high tension hole better stick our finger in there. LOL

Try this test.
Once you see spark then get the point working.
At the high point of lobe that's were the air gap is .015 get a feeler gauge.

Here is a simple way to check coil and condener.
Put power to coil make sure there are no broken strands end of wire.
Remove points wire at coil
Now put a condenser on coil lug terminal wire end.
Take coil wire out of cap and hold 1/4 to grd.
leave other end in coil.
Get a piece of wire grd one end and touch conderser.
When you make contact and remove should see spark.
Turn key on.
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:51 PM   #60
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

(1) with key on.
(2)HT wire removed from dizzy, held 1/4 to ground .
(3) turn the motor till points are closed .
(4) open and close points with a screw driver .
(5) spark should jump off the HT wire .

Ted
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:46 PM   #61
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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(1) with key on.
(2)HT wire removed from dizzy, held 1/4 to ground .
(3) turn the motor till points are closed .
(4) open and close points with a screw driver .
(5) spark should jump off the HT wire .

Ted
Will do first thing in the mrning!
Thanks for your help.
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:40 PM   #62
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by George/Maine View Post
If your points are about .014-,015 both, remove to condense wire and use the ohms scale. turn over engine and should see make and brake.
With the point wire off coil place meter there on volts. other end on battery neg.
should read about 5 volts if under dash resister is hooked up.
Also check the end of wire connector at coil make sure it not held on by few strands on wire.
Are you sure there is supposed to be a resister on the 4 cylinder? I don't believe there is one and I can't find one on the wiring diagram.

Charlie Stephens
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Old 12-01-2014, 09:52 PM   #63
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Are you sure there is supposed to be a resister on the 4 cylinder? I don't believe there is one and I can't find one on the wiring diagram.

Charlie Stephens
No Resistor
If I have to set the gap between the points is that a simple thing to do?
Do I need a special wrench or only a screw driver?
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:13 PM   #64
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

I might suggest if you have never gapped points before, you should have someone around that has.

I appreciate your tenacity to do this yourself...but sometimes you really need a better trained eye that get things one the right track.

Good luck, and may she run soon!
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Old 12-02-2014, 06:05 AM   #65
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

Please don't go looking for a resistor under the dash or anywhere else on the car. There wasn't one on your four-cylinder car originally and there shouldn't be one there now.
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Old 12-02-2014, 08:02 AM   #66
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

just hand cranked my engine slowly in an attempt tp get the points to touch..
They never touched... only slightly moved...approx 0.025 in

How much range of movement should there be? 0.015 to 0.0?
It may be hard to see the movement difference?
In one complete revolution of the engine should the points open and close 4 times?

Just curious... the car ran fine for hours several weeks ago...
Why would the points have moved apart? If anything after sitting dormant for 20 years you would think their adjusting screw would have been frozen solid??? Seems strange.

Last edited by FrankWest; 12-02-2014 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 12-02-2014, 09:13 AM   #67
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

They're not supposed to touch--that's why they are gapped.
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Old 12-02-2014, 09:32 AM   #68
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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They're not supposed to touch--that's why they are gapped.
they are supposed to touch during spark and space after to gap. This is what ignites the gasoline

great site
http://modelabasics.com/Ignition.htm

Last edited by FrankWest; 12-02-2014 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:10 AM   #69
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

New Discovery....
As I crank the engine my distributor Cam lobe is NOT turning! So the point gap remanin constant at approx 0.25! I hope the problem can be solved by replacing the Cam Lobe.....
Should I ask these questions on the Model A forum? This is a model B engine.
I believe the distributor is identical to a model A
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:37 AM   #70
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

You may have a stripped camshaft drive gear
or less likely a bad distributor drive gear.
Bob

Last edited by Bob C; 12-02-2014 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:49 AM   #71
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Originally Posted by FrankWest View Post
they are supposed to touch during spark and space after to gap. This is what ignites the gasoline

great site
http://modelabasics.com/Ignition.htm
Oops! Scratch that–what was I thinking?

Last edited by 4dFord/SC; 12-02-2014 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:12 PM   #72
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, you need to pull the distributor to see why it isn't turning. It's more likely that the whole shaft isn't turning, rather than the problem being isolated to the cam/rotor.

Pull a sparkplug and watch the valves* as the engine turns over. Turn it 2 turns minimum. If you can't see the valves moving you may have stripped the cam gear.

(*I'm not a 4 banger man, can you see the valves through the plug hole, like you can on a V8?)

Mart.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:21 PM   #73
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Take off the distributer cap and pull the rotor up and off. The cam is held to the shaft with a screw and if you are extremely lucky it has come loose (probably not). Try to rotate the shaft by hand (it shouldn’t rotate). Next you need to remove the screw in the side of the block (sort of a stud with a screw slot on the end with a lock nut) that holds the distributer in the block. After the screw is out lift the distributer up and out of the block. If you are lucky oil and a hard pull by hand will remove it. Be VERY careful if you try to remove it with hammers, chisels and screwdrivers. The distributer bodies are often stuck in the block and they are easy to break. They make a special puller to remove the distributer (try Bratton’s, (301) 829-9880). There should be a shaft coming out of the bottom the distributer held by a pin, check to be sure it is good. You can see an illustration of the distributer at
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/bdistributordetails.htm. If everything checks out so far remove the side cover from the block. You can turn the engine with the crank and see if the valves move (meaning the cam is turning). If the cam is not turning the timing gear is probably stripped. If the cam turns there should be a part that fits in a hole at the bottom of the oil gallery with a spring holding it in. Lift off the spring and lift it out. There is a shaft that extends through this piece that has a gear on the end that mates with the gear on the camshaft, check to be sure the gear is OK and pinned to the shaft. If you need distributer parts the best source is probably Renner’s Corner, rennerscorner.com, (734) 428-8424. Post what you find.

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Old 12-02-2014, 12:41 PM   #74
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Take off the distributer cap and pull the rotor up and off. The cam is held to the shaft with a screw and if you are extremely lucky it has come loose (probably not). Try to rotate the shaft by hand (it shouldn’t rotate). Next you need to remove the screw in the side of the block (sort of a stud with a screw slot on the end with a lock nut) that holds the distributer in the block. After the screw is out lift the distributer up and out of the block. If you are lucky oil and a hard pull by hand will remove it. Be VERY careful if you try to remove it with hammers, chisels and screwdrivers. The distributer bodies are often stuck in the block and they are easy to break. They make a special puller to remove the distributer (try Bratton’s, (301) 829-9880). There should be a shaft coming out of the bottom the distributer held by a pin, check to be sure it is good. You can see an illustration of the distributer at
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/bdistributordetails.htm. If everything checks out so far remove the side cover from the block. You can turn the engine with the crank and see if the valves move (meaning the cam is turning). If the cam is not turning the timing gear is probably stripped. If the cam turns there should be a part that fits in a hole at the bottom of the oil gallery with a spring holding it in. Lift off the spring and lift it out. There is a shaft that extends through this piece that has a gear on the end that mates with the gear on the camshaft, check to be sure the gear is OK and pinned to the shaft. If you need distributer parts the best source is probably Renner’s Corner, rennerscorner.com, (734) 428-8424. Post what you find.

Charlie Stephens
Will try..

Note! The cam lobe does not free spin by hand.. It move approx 5 degrees rotation but does not free wheel.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:44 PM   #75
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I have another distributor on my other model B engine. I guess if i eventually switch that and put it in this car I would have to re-time the engine. Right.
I plan to troubleshoot the distributor on my car but just in case I would swap it out for the other distributer.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:48 PM   #76
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Will try..

Note! The cam lobe does not free spin by hand.. It move approx 5 degrees rotation but does not free wheel.
When you turn the rotor, which is attached to the distributer cam gear you should get a small amount of rotation because of the mechanical advance. You can also see this on your other distributer. If the rotor is not turning when you crank the engine you should be able to turn it around when the engine is not running unless I am missing something. Assuming everything is still in the motor, do you mean you can’t turn the distributer cam gear (which is good)?

And yes to your other question, if you replace the distributor you should also plan on timing it.

Charlie Stephens

Last edited by Charlie Stephens; 12-02-2014 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:54 PM   #77
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Does the dist cam lobe turn when you hand crank the engine?? The cam lobe doesn't turn unless the engine is turned over. The lobe is fastened with the screw on top of it. BEFORE loosening anything turn the engine over with the hand crank with the dist cap off and see if the cam rotates.
Frank I feel for you, I can't remember there've been many threads by you but where are you located?? There may be a "A" guy around the corner from you who would be happy to stop by.
Paul in CT
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:32 PM   #78
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I just looked at dist. and looks like the tang that drives the dist. is pined.
Its could be removed easy, practice on the other engine.
Also looks like points are set different gap in low spot.
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:39 PM   #79
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

The cam lobe does not turn,, there is some play approx 5 degrees but otherwise it see attached firmly to the shaft... so i am surprised that iy does not rotate when the engine is hand cranked. If the cam lobe was easily turn by my hand pressure then The shaft could be broken.
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:43 PM   #80
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

They have a contical advance that's what moves pull the dist.
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Old 12-02-2014, 03:37 PM   #81
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The cam lobe does not turn,, there is some play approx 5 degrees but otherwise it see attached firmly to the shaft... so i am surprised that iy does not rotate when the engine is hand cranked. If the cam lobe was easily turn by my hand pressure then The shaft could be broken.
Frank,

Bases on this I would think that you may have stripped the timing gear. Remove the timing pin and see if the timing gear turns when you turn the engine over by hand.

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Old 12-02-2014, 04:42 PM   #82
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

As mentioned above, you should be able to rotate the distributor cam by about five degrees as you have done as a Model B distributor has centrifical advance, unlike a Model A distributor which has manual advance. If your distributor shaft were broken, which is highly unlikely, you would be able to turn the cam far beyond five degrees in both directions. The advice you've been given to check the fiber timing gear for sheared teeth is your next step. Replacing the timing gear on the front end of the camshaft is a lot easier on a four than a V-8, but a big project nonetheless.
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Old 12-02-2014, 04:51 PM   #83
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Take off the distributer cap and pull the rotor up and off. The cam is held to the shaft with a screw and if you are extremely lucky it has come loose (probably not). Try to rotate the shaft by hand (it shouldn’t rotate). Next you need to remove the screw in the side of the block (sort of a stud with a screw slot on the end with a lock nut) that holds the distributer in the block. After the screw is out lift the distributer up and out of the block. If you are lucky oil and a hard pull by hand will remove it. Be VERY careful if you try to remove it with hammers, chisels and screwdrivers. The distributer bodies are often stuck in the block and they are easy to break. They make a special puller to remove the distributer (try Bratton’s, (301) 829-9880). There should be a shaft coming out of the bottom the distributer held by a pin, check to be sure it is good. You can see an illustration of the distributer at
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/bdistributordetails.htm. If everything checks out so far remove the side cover from the block. You can turn the engine with the crank and see if the valves move (meaning the cam is turning). If the cam is not turning the timing gear is probably stripped. If the cam turns there should be a part that fits in a hole at the bottom of the oil gallery with a spring holding it in. Lift off the spring and lift it out. There is a shaft that extends through this piece that has a gear on the end that mates with the gear on the camshaft, check to be sure the gear is OK and pinned to the shaft. If you need distributer parts the best source is probably Renner’s Corner, rennerscorner.com, (734) 428-8424. Post what you find.

Charlie Stephens
I sent for the distributor puller from Brattons.
I plane to remove the distributor
But may look at the timing gear first?
Could that be stripped?
????
I talked to someone at Rennars corner, he said maybe the flange seared off the upper shaft of the distributor.
I guess the stresses of running several hours after 20 years dormant was too much
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:25 PM   #84
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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I sent for the distributor puller from Brattons.
I plane to remove the distributor
But may look at the timing gear first?
Could that be stripped?
????
I talked to someone at Rennars corner, he said maybe the flange seared off the upper shaft of the distributor.
I guess the stresses of running several hours after 20 years dormant was too much
You can check the timing gear by removing the timing pin and sticking something into the hole to feel the gear move (or not move) as you turn the crank.

Charlie Stephens
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:26 PM   #85
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I don't see how the Model A distributor puller will work
on the B distributor. I think you will just pull the top part
of the mechanical advance off.

Bob
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:50 PM   #86
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I don't see how the Model A distributor puller will work
on the B distributor. I think you will just pull the top part
of the mechanical advance off.

Bob
Bob,

Good catch. I definitely dropped the ball on that one. I didn't realize that the shaft was the lift point on the current pullers.

Charlie Stephens
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Old 12-02-2014, 06:55 PM   #87
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Thanks for ...........?
How do you get to the timming gear?
Is it really make of fabric/cardboard......Was Henry Cheap?
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Old 12-02-2014, 06:56 PM   #88
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

The dist should pull one if no rust, my guess the pin on bottom of dist may have sheared. Remove what ever keeps it from turning. Look at other engine..
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:22 PM   #89
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

The distributor keys into the shaft below it by a pin its a simple thing that often shears of ,You don't need a puller but there is a grub screw in the side of the head that holds it in ,loosen that off then use a bar under it and pried-d up .You can tell if the cam gear is not moving by placing the timing pin in the front cover timing hole and cranking the Motor .Ted
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:22 PM   #90
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I don't think anyone said that the timing gear was made of fabric or cardboard. It was made of a fiberous plastic called Celeron and it was likely more expensive at the time than anything made of metal.

With all due respect to the suggestion that you could inspect the timing gear by removing the timing pin on the front timing gear cover, all you would ascertain is the highly remote possibility that the nut retaining the timing gear cover on the end of the camshaft was loose. A far more likely cause is sheared teeth and that can only be checked by removing the two bolts holding the side cover of the timing gear and one beneath it through the oil pan flange (see photo below - the timing gear side cover is forward of the fuel pump and shaped something like a quarter moon) and then hand cranking the engine through several revolutions of the crankshaft.
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Old 12-03-2014, 10:24 AM   #91
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I am trying to decide what to do next.
If the pin is sheared off the distributor shaft you would think I should be able to spin the distributor cam around by hand, right?
Have the timing gears been know to fall especially after 80 years...
this strange plastic/whatever it is made of could have delaminated.
To removed the cover on the timing gear do I have to drain the oil out?
I have been making a lot of choices so far troubleshooting and it seems like everyone was Wrong!
To remove the valve cover to see if the valves are working thereby verifying that the timing gear is working means draining the engine oil, and replacing the gasket with a new one right?
At Least I am learning a lot about this car, which is what I wanted...
I anted someday to be able to keep it running on my own.... The best way to learn is to do it.
If I bought a newly restored car, it would just sit in the garage and I never would have learned anything.

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Old 12-03-2014, 10:31 AM   #92
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Its best to remove the dist and oil and set points, then check for binding shaft stuck and if you are lucky the pin has sheared on drive slot bottom of dist.
I would do the simple things first.
The has been story's of people taking the dist out and will never run again then you will have to junk it. LOL
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Old 12-03-2014, 10:46 AM   #93
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

Look at the picture that DavidG posted above, now read his post. He has clearly pointed out what you should do next. Remove the timing gear inspection cover (2 bolts shown in the picture and one under the cover that goes through the oil pan). After removing the 3 bolts and timing gear inspections cover, you can now crank the engine over a few spins and check the teeth on the timing gear. Very straight-forward procedure. Good luck!
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:21 AM   #94
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

What is this pin in the drive slot? I can only think of two
pins and neither one drives anything. One holds the drive gear
sleeve and the other holds the sleeve on the distributor shaft.

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Old 12-03-2014, 11:29 AM   #95
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Its best to remove the dist and oil and set points, then check for binding shaft stuck and if you are lucky the pin has sheared on drive slot bottom of dist.
I would do the simple things first.
The has been story's of people taking the dist out and will never run again then you will have to junk it. LOL
I can not take advice of someone who told me to out my finger in the High Voltage slot and then to junk my Car.
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:38 AM   #96
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

You have had people work on your cars for years and you should have learned these basics years ago.
You would be better to go to the model A section.
If the dist was locked and the shaft froze it would most likely shear the pin on the drive slot in the bottom of dist.
I,m not blowing smoke up your asxx.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:06 PM   #97
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

There is no pin in the drive slot.

Bob
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:12 PM   #98
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You have had people work on your cars for years and you should have learned these basics years ago.
You would be better to go to the model A section.
If the dist was locked and the shaft froze it would most likely shear the pin on the drive slot in the bottom of dist.
I,m not blowing smoke up your asxx.
I was a physicist working for the aerospace industry, designed DirectTV satellites and countless other spacecraft, I had no time to work on my car.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:27 PM   #99
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There is no pin in the drive slot.

Bob
You are right.
The original ford shaft consisted of two sections that merely fit into each other with a slot. These two sections were just dropped into place and NOT PINNED. I was told that this peg often gets worn and no longer fits into the bottom shaft slot .Aftermarket shafts were usually made one long shaft.
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:28 PM   #100
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

So what you're saying, Frank, it IS rocket science!

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Old 12-03-2014, 01:29 PM   #101
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Post 100. When I originally read your first post 3 weeks ago, I thought to myself, oh, sheared the teeth off the timing gear. Didn't say anything because I figured that would be obvious to the folks here. Don't get discouraged. If 100,000 farmers and ranchers could take it apart and put a new gear on, you probably can too. But we still don't know if that's what happened.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:12 PM   #102
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Post 97
that's the wrong end the female end is in dist.
I don't know or ever heard of a dist puller.
If you are in a warm area like ca or fl you could use a pipe wrench to twist the dist out by now. Only you know what you have and ford made thing easy to fix not like today mass air senses were a bug would stop the car cold.
The dist can only go in one way so don,t take the joke to heart.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:30 PM   #103
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Frank,

Look at the picture that DavidG posted above, now read his post. He has clearly pointed out what you should do next. Remove the timing gear inspection cover (2 bolts shown in the picture and one under the cover that goes through the oil pan). After removing the 3 bolts and timing gear inspections cover, you can now crank the engine over a few spins and check the teeth on the timing gear. Very straight-forward procedure. Good luck!
will do!
sounds like the best plan.
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:35 PM   #104
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I don't think anyone said that the timing gear was made of fabric or cardboard. It was made of a fiberous plastic called Celeron and it was likely more expensive at the time than anything made of metal.

With all due respect to the suggestion that you could inspect the timing gear by removing the timing pin on the front timing gear cover, all you would ascertain is the highly remote possibility that the nut retaining the timing gear cover on the end of the camshaft was loose. A far more likely cause is sheared teeth and that can only be checked by removing the two bolts holding the side cover of the timing gear and one beneath it through the oil pan flange (see photo below - the timing gear side cover is forward of the fuel pump and shaped something like a quarter moon) and then hand cranking the engine through several revolutions of the crankshaft.
where are these 3 screws? I have a model B I see this side piece with 2 screws and cannot see a screw below
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Old 12-03-2014, 05:02 PM   #105
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

The quickest way to teach yourself the basics of a Ford Model B engine is to pull up a chair and start to think thorough the function of each part aided by a re-print copy of the illustration from the period chassis parts catalogue shown below.

For example, you asked if you have to drain the oil to check the condition of the timing gear, but that suggests that you haven't looked at your engine, identified the timing gear cover in question, and then considered its position relative to the oil pan (where the oil is).

99% of automotive technology circa 1933 is common sense based. Nearly all the hobbyists that frequent this site acquired their knowledge before the internet existed and I'll bet that in nearly every case they did so with a direct, take-it-apart and put-it-back-together approach like the proverbial kid and his watch.

As the illustration is a composite of the Ford four-cylinder engine used between 1928 and 1934, you'll note some components that aren't on your engine or differ from what is on your engine. Once you've identified those by process of elimination or substitution, you're on your way. There is a separate illustration in the cited catalogue for each of the add-on parts to the engine such as the distributor, carburetor, generator, etc., etc.

At this stage of your education regarding your '33 four, you need pictures far more than words.
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Old 12-03-2014, 05:14 PM   #106
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Please re-read the fifth line of the second paragraph beginning "bolts holding the side cover ......" Unless you're using a mirror or looking from beneath the car, you cannot see the 3rd bolt referred to from the top, but you can feel it by sticking your hand beneath the cover and feeling along on the flange of the oil pan. If the bolt is missing you will still feel the hole in the flange of the oil pan.
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Old 12-03-2014, 05:21 PM   #107
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

As a side note, save all of the bolts and reuse them. I know this would be a sin on a satellite. The bolts that hold the cover on (I assume they are the same as a '32) have a rounded head and are not available from the local hardware store with the correct head. This is typical of many things on the car.

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Old 12-03-2014, 05:35 PM   #108
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Charlie,

With respect, I'm sure that you meant to limit that comment to the two bolts on the side of the cover and not to the hex bolt on the underside, otherwise Frank may think that the bolt underneath should have a rounded head. He should save that bolt too because it hopefully is the original with a thick flat head unlike the bolts available today at hardware stores which have noticeably thinner heads. (Except for the flywheel housing, front timing gear cover, water pump, water inlet casting and pipe, and front motor mount bracket, a '33 four is identical to a late '32 four in all respects.
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Old 12-03-2014, 06:16 PM   #109
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Frank,
Do as David G says, but you have to also remove three bolts on the front of the timing cover to get the small side cover off. I am quite sure that you will find the timing gear has teeth sheared off. It is very common on an old engine. A good 4 cylinder mechanic can get the old one off and a new one on in a few hours, but it is a big job if you have never done it, but certainly not impossible for someone of your skills.
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Old 12-03-2014, 06:33 PM   #110
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So what you're saying, Frank, it IS rocket science!

Mart.
a real skilled and experience mechanic is like an artist!
Someone who develops a feel for the machine, no just replaces parts.
Truly skilled people in any field are rare.
We seem to have more parts replaces today than truly skilled technicians.

I am new to the field and only entered it because I fell in love with these wonderful old cars from an exciting time the 1920's to early 1930's.
I really hate new plastic cars and have little interest in them.
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Old 12-03-2014, 06:35 PM   #111
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Frank,
Do as David G says, but you have to also remove three bolts on the front of the timing cover to get the small side cover off. I am quite sure that you will find the timing gear has teeth sheared off. It is very common on an old engine. A good 4 cylinder mechanic can get the old one off and a new one on in a few hours, but it is a big job if you have never done it, but certainly not impossible for someone of your skills.
This is a silly question, do I have to drain the engine oil first.
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Old 12-03-2014, 06:39 PM   #112
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Frank,

As a side note, save all of the bolts and reuse them. I know this would be a sin on a satellite. The bolts that hold the cover on (I assume they are the same as a '32) have a rounded head and are not available from the local hardware store with the correct head. This is typical of many things on the car.

Charlie Stephens
I always resuse the original bolts.

By the way, spacecraft are usually glued together...stronger than bolts and much lighter.
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Old 12-03-2014, 07:36 PM   #113
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This is a silly question, do I have to drain the engine oil first.
No, BUT if the gear is stripped I would drop the pan to clean
the pieces out.

Bob
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Old 12-03-2014, 07:45 PM   #114
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My bad; midgetracer is correct. There are six bolts in total.
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Old 12-03-2014, 08:08 PM   #115
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Well, someone has to say this, so may as well be me...

Frank, as I mentioned before, I admire your tenacity to solve this on yur ow,

That said, I see in this thread, and your earlier ones, you haven't answered specific questions that could help you out, or give others offering advice, and better direction to lead you to a solution.

I really think you need to have a gear head come over and take a look at it, just to confirm what the probable cause and issues are.

You seem to be reluctant to tell anyone where you are located, and I'm not sure why...heck, you could have DavidG 2 miles away from you and in 10 minutes, eliminate 5 days of asking questions.

It is always satisfying to "fix it yourself", but sometimes a keener more experienced eye is needed.

Good luck!
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:52 PM   #116
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Post 100. When I originally read your first post 3 weeks ago, I thought to myself, oh, sheared the teeth off the timing gear. Didn't say anything because I figured that would be obvious to the folks here. Don't get discouraged. If 100,000 farmers and ranchers could take it apart and put a new gear on, you probably can too. But we still don't know if that's what happened.
Thanks for your encouraging comments.
I am stumbling along but enjoy the fact that I am learning and feel like I am part of the 1930's.
I almost bought an already restored car but I am happy with this 95% original 1933 ford because now I am learning about the car. My plans are to keep this car and use and repair it myself for the rest of my life. Tomorrow morning I will take off the timing gear side port to see the condition of the gear.
Strange, but I have many repair books and service bullitons but no show how to replace the timing gear/gears? Well I will see tomor/row.
Thanks again....
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Old 12-03-2014, 10:05 PM   #117
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Frank, You might want to get the "Model A Mechanics Handbook--Vol 1".
There are a lot of things that are similar, like changing the timing gear,
between the Model A and your 1933.
Here's a link http://www.brattons.com/product.asp?...=any&PT_ID=all

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Old 12-03-2014, 10:19 PM   #118
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Do you have a spark plug wrench or a adjustable wrench.
A big step for tomorrow remove the spark plugs.
Now if the can turn engine over look and see if the VALVESS are moving.

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Old 12-03-2014, 10:23 PM   #119
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I think somebody forgot to take their medication.
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:22 PM   #120
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

George you need to keep it clean. A good idea is to take a remedial English class too. You try to give advice but nobody can understand what you're trying to say because of your poor sentence structure and lack of punctuation in the correct place.
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:46 PM   #121
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On my fours (and V-8s for that matter), the pistons are attached to the connecting rods, which are attached to the crankshaft, which when turned causes the pistons to move up and down in the cylinder bores. This occurs with or without the timing gear in place.
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Old 12-04-2014, 02:57 AM   #122
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I think the question was wether the timing gear was moving or not as charlie suggested .Any one whose worked on a A or B motor would know that by placing the timing pin in the hole and turning the motor you would be able to tell wether it was turning or not .it would be help full for you to do this simple test .

(Quote )I Thanks for ...........?
How do you get to the timing gear?
Is it really make of fabric/cardboard......Was Henry Cheap?





(Quote ) With all due respect to the suggestion that you could inspect the timing gear by removing the timing pin on the front timing gear cover, all you would ascertain is the highly remote possibility that the nut retaining the timing gear cover on the end of the camshaft was loose. A far more likely cause is sheared teeth and that can only be checked by removing the two bolts holding the side cover of the timing gear and one beneath it through the oil pan flange (see photo below - the timing gear side cover is forward of the fuel pump and shaped something like a quarter moon) and then hand cranking the engine through several revolutions of the crankshaft.[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:22 AM   #123
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The problem here, Ted, is that the owner of this '33 has never worked on a car previously, let alone an A or B four. Your test is for someone who knows what they are looking for (or more specifically feeling for), not for someone who needs a book on this subject (one with a yellow cover and black printing).
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:35 AM   #124
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Frank,

Look at the picture that DavidG posted above, now read his post. He has clearly pointed out what you should do next. Remove the timing gear inspection cover (2 bolts shown in the picture and one under the cover that goes through the oil pan). After removing the 3 bolts and timing gear inspections cover, you can now crank the engine over a few spins and check the teeth on the timing gear. Very straight-forward procedure. Good luck!
There are more than three bolts...there are 6 bolts because three screw into the side of the cover!

I removed these bolts and am trying to get the cover to com off. After 80 years ....I am trying to get the proper way to loosen it....
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:59 AM   #125
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, Like DavidG said earlier...."My bad, there are 6 bolts" I too forgot the front bolts on the timing cover. Anyway, you found them. The gear cover should come loose. Perhaps there is a little gasket/gasket goop holding it on. I replaced the timing gear on my Model B motor several years ago (with the help of a Model A owner). You're going to get this thing...hang in there! Regards, Pat
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:03 AM   #126
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Frank, Like DavidG said earlier...."My bad, there are 6 bolts" I too forgot the front bolts on the timing cover. Anyway, you found them. The gear cover should come loose. Perhaps there is a little gasket/gasket goop holding it on. I replaced the timing gear on my Model B motor several years ago (with the help of a Model A owner). You're going to get this thing...hang in there! Regards, Pat
To remove the front lower front 3 bolts,,,I will have to support the engine with a jack and remove the engine mount.
I have Les Andrews Model A mechanics book.
I am on my way....Thanks for your help.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:20 AM   #127
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, Does your spare Model B engine have the timing gear cover and timing gear inspection cover on it? If the front of the spare engine is accessible...you could remove the inspection cover to give you an idea of what to expect after it is removed.

One thing leads to another when working on these old engines! You would have to remove the front engine mount anyway in the event that the timing gear teeth are sheared. I wish I still had my Model B engine (roadster) so that I could refer to it and help you better. Regards, Pat
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Old 12-04-2014, 12:46 PM   #128
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Pat,

The situation is complicated by the subject car being a '33. On a '32 (and super early '33s, which evidently is not the instance herein) with the 12" spacing between the front motor mount insulators those three bolts are removable without having to detach the front motor mount bracket from the front timing gear cover. Once the motor mount insulator spacing was increased early in the '33 model year it was no longer possible to access the lowest of the three front cover bolts without removing the front motor mount bracket (see photo below).

As Frank has pointed out, he'll need to put a block of wood under the bottom of the oil pan at the front to jack it up so that the motor mount bracket can be removed. What is relatively straight forward on a '32 is much more complicated on a '33-'34 four.

With apologies to Flathead Ted, I now agree with him that Frank should first try to detect movement of the timing gear by pressing the timing pin located on the front timing gear cover into the hole from which it is removed from. There's a shallow hole in the face of the timing gear that the round end of the timing pin will encounter as the crankshaft is turned. Several encounters with the pin bumping into and out of that hole would eliminate the timing gear from the list of possible sources of his engine's problems.
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Old 12-04-2014, 12:52 PM   #129
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If Frank were to remove the plugs, would he be able to see valve movement?

Pin confirms gear movement.

Valve movement confirms cam rotation.

(Actually the second test would be better done first. No need to check the gear if the cam is rotating.)

Mart.
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Old 12-04-2014, 01:26 PM   #130
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

,We had this problem recently on a Model A and it was the tang on the distributor shaft .water had got in through the head .
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Old 12-04-2014, 02:41 PM   #131
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Mart's suggestion is a good one and a potential time saver as the spark plug holes line up pretty well with the inner edges of the valves. A well focused flashlight would be handy for this purpose.
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Old 12-04-2014, 02:59 PM   #132
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Spark plugs are right over the valves. Easy to see if things are happening there. That's a good suggestion. With engine turning over by starter if you do not see valves opening and closing, you can surmise that the cam gear is dentally challenged. Or worse, but that was the reason for the fiber gear. A weak link that preserves other more important things from getting broke. Plus they're quieter.
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Old 12-04-2014, 03:12 PM   #133
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Spark plugs are right over the valves. Easy to see if things are happening there. That's a good suggestion. With engine turning over by starter if you do not see valves opening and closing, you can surmise that the cam gear is dentally challenged. Or worse, but that was the reason for the fiber gear. A weak link that preserves other more important things from getting broke. Plus they're quieter.
Will look into the spark plug holes before I began trying to take timing gear cover off. I took at easy bolts out... no problem...but will try to see valve motion before I continue...
Thanks everyone for your help....

This is almost like a soap opera...
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:17 PM   #134
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I tried to see the valves....Can't
I think I would need something like this
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital...era-67979.html

I seemed to remember a long time ago that there was a fiber optic scope that did not transfer the image to video but was a direct view and sold for
much less. Today everything gas to electro-optical.
Not really needed here.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:09 PM   #135
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I tried to see the valves....Can't
I think I would need something like this
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital...era-67979.html

I seemed to remember a long time ago that there was a fiber optic scope that did not transfer the image to video but was a direct view and sold for
much less. Today everything gas to electro-optical.
Not really needed here.
Frank, Don't spend any money on the inspection camera. It will probably be the only time you use it. As has been suggested, pull the half moon shaped cover off of the side of the engine and look at the timing gear. Be careful and you might not need to replace the gaskets that extend under other adjacent parts. Before doing that I still like my idea of sticking something into the timing pin hole to see if the gear is turning. Since the distributer is not moving you may have a situation where a lot of the teeth are sheared off of the gear. My suggestion won't tell you if you have a tooth of two missing or pitted but what you are looking for is to find if a lot of teeth are missing and the gear is not moving. What have you done so far?

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Old 12-05-2014, 07:08 AM   #136
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I removed the bolts I could get to...
Supported the engine pan with jack and slab of wood
Next step loosen engine support bolts to access the bolts for the timing gear cover
Just holding

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Old 12-05-2014, 07:32 AM   #137
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,

Unless I missed a couple of posts somewhere (or there is something you didn't tell us) you still haven't found the problem. Did you check out the easy to check things mentioned earlier? We are in the dark since you don't tell us what you have done. You shouldn't be removing the timing gear cover yet, just the half moon piece at the side of the engine so you can see the teeth (part 6017 in the illustration contained in post #105). Did you try my suggestion about turning the engine and checking through the timing pin hole to see if the cam gear is turning (see David's post #128, he is now agreeing with that suggestion)? You would probably have better luck checking with something like an ice pick instead of the timing pin. Any chance you could find a Model A owner nearby and ask them to come look at the problem since it should be the same as a Model A?

Charlie Stephens

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Old 12-05-2014, 09:20 AM   #138
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Charlie,

With respect, he said that he can't see the valves through a spark plug hole in the head, so he's after the timing gear side cover. Perhaps with more experience in the future he will be comfortable with trying the timing pin approach. My experience with many fours is that the whole business of using the timing pin to establish the starting point to set the points is highly overrated and that visual confirmation of the position of the #1 piston is far more reliable as a starting point to set the points in conjunction with a timing light.

He's doing what is required on a '33 to gain access to all three bolts on the front timing gear cover that attach to the side cover (the removal of six bolts is required to remove the side cover as I belatedly acknowledged above). That access is a big deal on a '33-'34 four, unlike on a '32 because of the far greater width of the front motor mount bracket as shown in the photo above.

No harm will come from removing the timing gear side cover and doing so will define beyond all doubt the role of the timing gear in this "soap opera" (Frank West's words). I regret that my well-meaning contributions have elongated the script.
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Old 12-05-2014, 09:45 AM   #139
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

This is the cool thing about this forum. Many people with many experiences are trying to help, and the rest of us are learning.

It May be getting frustrating for Frank and there's, but we are all learning things we may not have without his questions.
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Old 12-05-2014, 11:01 AM   #140
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Too painful for me. I'll check back in a month to see where we're at.

When I was a kid I watched my grandad spend most of an afternoon cleaning battery posts. Something I could have accomplished in minutes, and I thought to myself, what could this man possibly do at work. He was Kelly Johnson's radar lead on the SR71...
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Old 12-06-2014, 09:53 AM   #141
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Too painful for me. I'll check back in a month to see where we're at.

When I was a kid I watched my grandad spend most of an afternoon cleaning battery posts. Something I could have accomplished in minutes, and I thought to myself, what could this man possibly do at work. He was Kelly Johnson's radar lead on the SR71...
Got the timing gear inspection door down, Timing gear does NOT move when I hand crank the engine!

Half the gear looks ok not chewed up!
Tried to move timing gear...seems attached with slight play approc 2 degrees either rotation direction.

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Old 12-06-2014, 11:18 AM   #142
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

It sounds like the sheared teeth on the timing gear are next to the mating gear on the crankshaft itself, which of course makes perfect sense, i.e. no teeth, no engagement of the timing gear.

At this point I recommend that you not attempt to rotate the timing gear as you risk altering the valve timing, adding one more thing to your "to do" list associated with replacing the timing gear. The next step is to remove the front timing gear cover in order to access the entire timing gear to permit its replacement. (The other next step is to buy a new timing gear. They are same as that used on Model As and are readily available from Model A part suppliers. Originally they came in two sizes, standard and +.004 oversize to compensate for wear on the steel gear on the crankshaft.) I have no idea about the quality of today's replacements as I use NOS or NORS timing gears, but you should pose that question on the Model A portion of the "Barn".

While you're shopping for a new timing gear, look also for the special wrench or socket for a wrench for the very large special nut on the front of the timing gear where it is attached to the camshaft. Hopefully you'll have to do this job once, but the right tool for this job makes it easy and anything else either doesn't work or screws up the special nut to the point where it needs to be replaced.

Lastly, when you remove the front timing gear cover be aware that there is a spring-loaded camshaft thrust plunger (Ford's nomenclature) which may or may not need replacement, but either way it must be re-assembled in the front cover when you re-attach the cover to the cylinder block.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:18 AM   #143
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

thanks

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Old 12-06-2014, 11:45 AM   #144
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

It is highly unlikely that a lot of the teeth have been sheared. It only takes a few to cause disengagement. It is highly likely that you have now solved the mystery of why your engine would not restart.

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Old 12-06-2014, 02:12 PM   #145
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

DavidG....This makes perfect sense to me. I want to tell you...the suspense was killing me .

Frank...good luck in replacing the timing gear. I replaced mine with the help of a Model A guy. Was very straight-forward. I had to purchase the special tool to remove the nut also. If you are located near me...I would be happy to loan it to you. Good luck...I'm pullin' for you! Pat
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Old 12-06-2014, 08:13 PM   #146
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It sounds like the sheared teeth on the timing gear are next to the mating gear on the crankshaft itself, which of course makes perfect sense, i.e. no teeth, no engagement of the timing gear.

At this point I recommend that you not attempt to rotate the timing gear as you risk altering the valve timing, adding one more thing to your "to do" list associated with replacing the timing gear. The next step is to remove the front timing gear cover in order to access the entire timing gear to permit its replacement. (The other next step is to buy a new timing gear. They are same as that used on Model As and are readily available from Model A part suppliers. Originally they came in two sizes, standard and +.004 oversize to compensate for wear on the steel gear on the crankshaft.) I have no idea about the quality of today's replacements as I use NOS or NORS timing gears, but you should pose that question on the Model A portion of the "Barn".

While you're shopping for a new timing gear, look also for the special wrench or socket for a wrench for the very large special nut on the front of the timing gear where it is attached to the camshaft. Hopefully you'll have to do this job once, but the right tool for this job makes it easy and anything else either doesn't work or screws up the special nut to the point where it needs to be replaced.

Lastly, when you remove the front timing gear cover be aware that there is a spring-loaded camshaft thrust plunger (Ford's nomenclature) which may or may not need replacement, but either way it must be re-assembled in the front cover when you re-attach the cover to the cylinder block.
David,

You lost me on one thing. You said that you "recommend that you not attempt to rotate the timing gear as you risk altering the valve timing". Since the crankshaft turns free relative to the camshaft hasn't all timing already been lost? I would add for Frank to be sure to line up the mark on the timing gear with the mark on the crankshaft gear when reassembling.

Charlie Stephens

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Old 12-06-2014, 09:48 PM   #147
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

That means......if you haven't bent any valves so far, don't tempt fate by moving the cam at this late date. DD
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Old 12-06-2014, 10:27 PM   #148
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That means......if you haven't bent any valves so far, don't tempt fate by moving the cam at this late date. DD
You lost me, how would moving the cam bend a valve? Are you thinking of some of the late model engines that have the pistons hit the valves when the timing belt breaks?

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Old 12-06-2014, 11:36 PM   #149
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Charlie,

I'm just trying to take Frank through it one step at a time. Trying to turn the timing gear as he indicated he attempted is completely non-productive, i.e. a waste of time. Of course he will eventually have to align the marks on the two gears and yes, they probably are out of alignment already. Further, you're right, bending a valve is not a risk. But this project needs to focus on the essential steps to completion without further detours.
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Old 12-07-2014, 12:13 AM   #150
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Charlie,

I'm just trying to take Frank through it one step at a time. Trying to turn the timing gear as he indicated he attempted is completely non-productive, i.e. a waste of time. Of course he will eventually have to align the marks on the two gears and yes, they probably are out of alignment already. Further, you're right, bending a valve is not a risk. But this project needs to focus on the essential steps to completion without further detours.
David,

I agree that trying to turn the gear is non productive. I was afraid he would take you literally and spend too much time trying to not turn the cam (even a couple of degrees) as he removed the nut.

Charlie Stephens

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Old 12-07-2014, 04:09 AM   #151
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I'd recommend turning the cam. I know you can't with the gear as it is, but there must be a reason why the gear stripped it's teeth. There may be a sticking valve or some other reason that may have caused an extra load on the cam and stripped the gear teeth. If you can turn the cam by hand you can first of all see if it stops before making a complete turn, but also check that the turning force to open all valves is more or less equal.
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Old 12-07-2014, 07:15 AM   #152
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

The dist should pull one if no rust, my guess the pin on bottom of dist may have sheared. Remove what ever keeps it from turning. Look at other engine..
Its best to remove the dist and oil and set points, then check for binding shaft stuck and if you are lucky the pin has sheared on drive slot bottom of dist.
I would do the simple things first.
The has been story's of people taking the dist out and will never run again then you will have to junk it. LOL
You have had people work on your cars for years and you should have learned these basics years ago.
You would be better to go to the model A section.
If the dist was locked and the shaft froze it would most likely shear the pin on the drive slot in the bottom of dist.
I,m not blowing smoke up your asxx.
Post 97
that's the wrong end the female end is in dist.
I don't know or ever heard of a dist puller.
If you are in a warm area like ca or fl you could use a pipe wrench to twist the dist out by now. Only you know what you have and ford made thing easy to fix not like today mass air senses were a bug would stop the car cold.
The dist can only go in one way so don,t take the joke to heart.
To add to this if you turm the engine over once the gear should be at 90degs.
You can,t see broken teeth then my guess its THE KEY WAY ON CRANKSHAFT IS BROKEN. THIS COULD BE CAUSED BY DIST FROZE UP
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Old 12-07-2014, 08:04 AM   #153
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Mart,

Again, one step at a time. It's worth turning the cam to make sure everything that runs off it is up to snuff, but not until the timing gear has been removed when turning the cam is then a straightforward process.

Let's all wait until Frank has removed the front timing gear cover and tells us what he has found. I suspect that the odds of a sheared woodruff key on the crankshaft are extremely high; possible, but not probable.

Last edited by DavidG; 12-07-2014 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:59 AM   #154
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I took off all the bolts from the timing cover but have a problem. Not sure if there is still one screw under the engine support bracket which is disconnected bu cannot be removed because the timing cover has two ledges cast in the timing cover that actually overhand the support bracket. Strange, but my spare model B engine does NOT have these overhangs? I looked in all my books Model A and 1933 ford for disassemble instructions but can't find anything.
see diagram
Purple are the bracket and screws I removed

There is enough play in the bracket that if all they screws were removed I think the cover could be slid off.
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:01 AM   #155
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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You lost me, how would moving the cam bend a valve? Are you thinking of some of the late model engines that have the pistons hit the valves when the timing belt breaks?

Charlie Stephens
Charlie.....I'm sorry, and you're right! I did kinda lose my head there for a moment......I've since re-gained my composure. DD
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:07 AM   #156
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Here is a picture of the ledges on the Timing cover.
Also It looks like the timing cover sis attached to the four oil pan bolts...
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Old 12-07-2014, 10:53 AM   #157
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Here are the screws I have removed...
The timing cover is still hard to remove.
Hit with a rubber hammer a few times......?
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File Type: jpg Copy of ledges.jpg (44.1 KB, 19 views)

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Old 12-07-2014, 11:16 AM   #158
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Maybe this helps...
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File Type: jpg Capture1.JPG (17.9 KB, 36 views)
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Old 12-07-2014, 01:13 PM   #159
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

There is ONE last bolt marked in blue...
That I can't get at because of the engine mount bracket with is loose but trapped between the ledges on the timing cover and main pulley.....
Strange that there seems no procedure to remove the timing cover in the ford bullitins of repair books, unless I just overlooked them?
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Old 12-07-2014, 02:55 PM   #160
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Frank,

You probably cannot remove the timing gear cover without at least loosening the two special bolts that attachment the front motor mount bracket to the front cross member. It is probably best to remove that bracket altogether as it will only get in the way of your replacing the timing gear (should it prove to have some sheared teeth).

Those ledges that you refer to are characteristic of all '32 and '33-'34 four-cylinder timing gear covers (those two types are different and are not interchangeable).
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:09 PM   #161
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Frank,

You probably cannot remove the timing gear cover without at least loosening the two special bolts that attachment the front motor mount bracket to the front cross member. It is probably best to remove that bracket altogether as it will only get in the way of your replacing the timing gear (should it prove to have some sheared teeth).

Those ledges that you refer to are characteristic of all '32 and '33-'34 four-cylinder timing gear covers (those two types are different and are not interchangeable).
done
But the engine bracket now loose is still trapped between the ledges and the Lower engine pulley
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:47 PM   #162
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank
You will be taking the oil pan down so do it now and look up and see the gears.
If the dist is stuck you can not turn camshaft.
Easy things first pull the dist and prove me wrong. By the way the keyway is only .75 cents.
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Old 12-07-2014, 04:50 PM   #163
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Are you guys really going to coach Frank through to a full engine rebuild ?? Ted
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,We had this problem recently on a Model A and it was the tang on the distributor shaft .water had got in through the head .
jammed the gears rusted the tang
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:08 PM   #164
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Frank,

Earlier you had said that you had placed a block of wood under the oil pan and jacked it up. You now need to jack it further to free the front motor mount bracket from the insulators on the front cross member. Once the bracket is no longer resting on the insulators, remove them from the front cross member. This along with perhaps a little further raising of the engine should enable you to rotate the front engine mount sufficiently to clear the ledges and remove it through the narrow opening that exists (or should exist) between the crankshaft pulley and the ledges.

This is a challenge unique to the '33-'34 fours that is the result of the slanting of the radiator rearward (compared to a '32) and the further rearward placement of a four in the '33-'34 chassis (compared to a V-8). That rearward placement wasn't enough to create the needed clearance between the fan and the radiator so they shortened the water pump, moved the generator back, and reduced the length of the crankshaft pulley. The net result is that there is very little space between the back of the crankshaft pulley and the ledges on the front of the timing gear front cover. There was a better way to handle the greater overall length of a four than a V-8 in a '33-'34 chassis, but it is what it is, namely a compromise.

Last edited by DavidG; 12-07-2014 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:11 PM   #165
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Would it be a big deal to loosen the crank pulley bolt and pull the pulley slightly forward?

Mart.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:16 PM   #166
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Frank,

Earlier you had said that you had placed a block of wood under the oil pan and jacked it up. You now need to jack it further to free the front motor mount bracket from the insulators on the front cross member. Once the bracket is no longer resting on the insulators, remove them from the front cross member. This along with perhaps a little further raising of the engine should enable you to rotate the front engine mount sufficiently to clear the ledges and remove it through the narrow opening that exists (or should exist) between the crankshaft pulley and the ledges.

This is a challenge unique to the '33-'34 fours that is the result of the slanting of the radiator rearward (compared to a '32) and the further rearward placement of a four in the '33-'34 chassis (compared to a V-8). That rearward placement wasn't enough to create the needed clearance between the fan and the radiator so they shortened the water pump, moved the generator back, and reduced the length of the crankshaft pulley. The net result is that there is very little space between the back of the crankshaft pulley and the ledges on the front of the timing gear front cover. There was a better way to handle the greater overall length of a four than a V-8 in a '33-'34 chassis, but it is what is, namely a compromise.
I already took the bolts out of the insulator pads...the pads are solidified and I will replace them.
So you say I should jack up the engine slightly higher to allow me to twist out the racket which is now loose.
can the engine take this lifting without damage to the "linkage" I believe they call it?
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:32 PM   #167
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Frank,

It can take it up to a point as what you are doing is slightly rotating the rear of the transmission in the rubber ring in the center of the rear motor/transmission mount attached to the center cross member. The output shaft on the end of the transmission is attached directly to the universal joint on the front of the driveshaft so movement there is not a problem (within limits, of course).

If you are concerned about distorting the rear motor/transmission mount, you could loosen the two hex head bolts that attach the mount to the center cross member. Unfortunately, access to those bolts requires the removal of the V-shaped sheet metal panel that covers up the top of the transmission and forms part of the floor. I would not do that unless you are absolutely unable to achieve enough space to rotate the front motor mount bracket clear of the ledges on the timing gear cover after you remove the two rubber and steel motor mount insulators from the front cross member.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:38 PM   #168
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In re-reading your last note, I'm not sure that you had removed the insulators or just the bolts that pass through the insulators. You will not create enough space to rotate the front motor mount bracket sufficiently without removing the insulators from the front cross member. If you leave them in place and try to jack up the front of the engine to achieve the needed clearance you will have jacked it up too far and you will run the risk of permanent damage to the rear motor/transmission mount.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:49 PM   #169
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Frank,

It can take it up to a point as what you are doing is slightly rotating the rear of the transmission in the rubber ring in the center of the rear motor/transmission mount attached to the center cross member. The output shaft on the end of the transmission is attached directly to the universal joint on the front of the driveshaft so movement there is not a problem (within limits, of course).

If you are concerned about distorting the rear motor/transmission mount, you could loosen the two hex head bolts that attach the mount to the center cross member. Unfortunately, access to those bolts requires the removal of the V-shaped sheet metal panel that covers up the top of the transmission and forms part of the floor. I would not do that unless you are absolutely unable to achieve enough space to rotate the front motor mount bracket clear of the ledges on the timing gear cover after you remove the two rubber and steel motor mount insulators from the front cross member.
even if I removed the engine the bracket is still trapped between the ledges on the timing cover and crank pulley and the oil pain top flang.
It looks like only the pulley removal would release the bracket.
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Old 12-07-2014, 05:51 PM   #170
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Would it be a big deal to loosen the crank pulley bolt and pull the pulley slightly forward?

Mart.
That is probably the only way to release the trapped loose bracket.

Does that pulley come off easily? Is the bolt on the neck?
Mart.[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-07-2014, 07:20 PM   #171
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Frank,

I truly wish that the answer to that question was yes, the pulley comes off easily, but that is not the case. The bolt that retains the pulley on the end of the crankshaft is in front, in center of the pulley. The forward portion has four slots and what sort look like teeth and that's where you engaged your hand crank, assuming that is what you used to turn the crankshaft. The center of it is hex shaped (1 3/8" across the flats) which is where one tightens or loosens the screw.

Assuming that you're able to loosen that screw then the pulley is pulled forward to remove it or in you case enough to create some clearance to remove the front motor mount bracket. The problem is that the pulley, if original, is made of cast iron and it is very easy to chip the lips of the pulley if you simply try to pry at the pulley to move it forward. The only safe way to pull the pulley forward is with an appropriately-configured puller, preferably one with at least three fingers to capture the back lip of the pulley in three places. Depending on the size and configuration of the puller there may not be enough room between the front spring u-bolts/hand crank guide/raised portion of the front cross member to permit the puller to be square with the crankshaft pulley.

There's about 3/4" of clearance between the front of the pulley and the back of the raised portion of the front cross member which is more than enough room for your purpose of moving the pulley forward an 1/8th or so.

May be you will be very lucky and can slide the pulley forward once you have removed the retaining bolt. In addition to the pulley being a relatively tight fit on the end of the crankshaft, the oil seals in the bottom of the timing gear cover and the top of the front of the oil pan will fight you as they understandably are a tight fit up against the shank of the pulley. You've loosened the front timing gear cover so that will take the pressure off that side of the oil seal. You would need to drop the front end of the oil pan to relieve the pressure on the oil pan side of the oil seal. It still very likely will not be enough for you to be able pull the pulley forward without the use of a puller of some sort.

The front end of '33-'34 four-cylinder engine is the epitome of dumb design.
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Old 12-07-2014, 07:44 PM   #172
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Frank,

I truly wish that the answer to that question was yes, the pulley comes off easily, but that is not the case. The bolt that retains the pulley on the end of the crankshaft is in front, in center of the pulley. The forward portion has four slots and what sort look like teeth and that's where you engaged your hand crank, assuming that is what you used to turn the crankshaft. The center of it is hex shaped (1 3/8" across the flats) which is where one tightens or loosens the screw.

Assuming that you're able to loosen that screw then the pulley is pulled forward to remove it or in you case enough to create some clearance to remove the front motor mount bracket. The problem is that the pulley, if original, is made of cast iron and it is very easy to chip the lips of the pulley if you simply try to pry at the pulley to move it forward. The only safe way to pull the pulley forward is with an appropriately-configured puller, preferably one with at least three fingers to capture the back lip of the pulley in three places. Depending on the size and configuration of the puller there may not be enough room between the front spring u-bolts/hand crank guide/raised portion of the front cross member to permit the puller to be square with the crankshaft pulley.

There's about 3/4" of clearance between the front of the pulley and the back of the raised portion of the front cross member which is more than enough room for your purpose of moving the pulley forward an 1/8th or so.

May be you will be very lucky and can slide the pulley forward once you have removed the retaining bolt. In addition to the pulley being a relatively tight fit on the end of the crankshaft, the oil seals in the bottom of the timing gear cover and the top of the front of the oil pan will fight you as they understandably are a tight fit up against the shank of the pulley. You've loosened the front timing gear cover so that will take the pressure off that side of the oil seal. You would need to drop the front end of the oil pan to relieve the pressure on the oil pan side of the oil seal. It still very likely will not be enough for you to be able pull the pulley forward without the use of a puller of some sort.

The front end of '33-'34 four-cylinder engine is the epitome of dumb design.
I remember reading that the model B engine was longer than the v8 so they had to make modifications. I never know that that meant disposable engines!

Funny, I have another model B engine that I bought from the guy that sold me this car. He said it was rebuilt. From it;s serial number it was built in 1935... And it has no ledges on the timing cover.. I guess they learned their lesson.

May I should cut off the ledges on my 1933 engine then I could slid the bracket right of. The bracket has 2 bolts that go into the Timing cover They probably do not need those 2 PIA ledges..

What would be the best way to cut or grind off those ledges???
I would make sure to drain all the fuel out and let the car duel lines dry out before cutting or grinding the ledges.
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Old 12-07-2014, 07:55 PM   #173
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Maybe I should cut the engine bracket remove and then replace the timing cover with one without ledges? The only problem seems that the bearing bulge for the timing gear seems to protrude approx 1 inch rather than 1/2 inch on the 1935 timing cover??
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Old 12-07-2014, 08:30 PM   #174
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This truly has become a real soap opera!

Well, what are you gonna do.
Funny thing was that, I didn't buy the 1933 v8 because it had a 1935 engine and the interior was destroyed too.
My consolation is that thousands of hot rodders are always dropping new engines in these cars.....so I should learn to think outside the box.

If I just cut off the motor bracket to replace later with a new I don;t think I be able to get the new one in place with the ledges present and the crank pulley on.
During manufacture the crank pully must have been put on after the engine was mounted. What the heck was Henry thinking....Make more money!
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:07 PM   #175
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

If the bracket is loose will it twist or wiggle enough that you can get the
bolts that are behind the bracket out, then you could remove the bracket
and timing gear cover at the same time.

Bob
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:19 PM   #176
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I know this isn't a SBC, but could the crank threads be stripped?

I/e does the crank p-ully rotate when the engine is turned over?
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Old 12-07-2014, 09:53 PM   #177
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Frank,

If you cut off those ledges you've lost me. They are there for the best of reasons and that is to take the shear load off the two bolts that hold the bracket to the timing gear cover. Think of the pounding that those two bolts would take without the ledges; before long they would beat their threads (steel against cast iron) into ovals.

As you said, if you cut your motor mount bracket to retrieve the timing gear cover you still would have to move the pulley forward to attach a replacement bracket. (If you can't remove it for lack of clearance, you cannot replace it for the same reason.)

There were three different timing gear covers used on 1928-34 four cylinder engines and only the one designed for use in '33-'34 chassis will work in yours. The other two were designed for use in chassis with vertical radiators and crankshaft pulleys nearly an inch longer than yours. Which in turn means that the generator pulleys were nearly an inch further forward. Since the generators attach to the timing gear covers and the generator mounting brackets are all basically the same in terms of dimensions, you have to have the unique-to-'33/'34 timing cover or else your fan belt won't line up with all three (water pump, generator, and crankshaft) pulleys.

I suggest you take a real close look at that other timing gear cover you have and see if the boss for mounting the generator is in exactly the same position front to back as that on your car's timing gear cover.

Ford did not produce any vehicles in North America during either the 1935 model or calendar years that were powered by four-cylinder engines. Ford did continue to produce the engines in the U.S. into the early 1940s, but only for service replacements and for use as industrial engines. I'm curious as to why you think that your spare engine is a '35. A couple of photos of the timing gear cover of that engine would be very educational as well.

Ford did release a two-piece crankshaft pulley for service which is much easier to remove, but not for '33-'34 fours, just for the Model As and '32s. That's unfortunate in this instance.

I doubt if the motive for what you've encountered is money as it was not cheap to tool up for a new timing gear cover, crankshaft pulley, and water pump to accommodate the slanted radiator of the '33-'34s. Whatever the reason, it's engineering at its worst.

You're right about the original assembly sequence; the crank pulley had/has to be added last, which I learned the hard way.
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Old 12-07-2014, 11:41 PM   #178
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I'd recommend turning the cam. I know you can't with the gear as it is, but there must be a reason why the gear stripped it's teeth. There may be a sticking valve or some other reason that may have caused an extra load on the cam and stripped the gear teeth. If you can turn the cam by hand you can first of all see if it stops before making a complete turn, but also check that the turning force to open all valves is more or less equal.
Mart.
Mart,

I was thinking the same thing when I read your post. One piece of information Frank is going to need is what torque should it take to turn the cam (after the initial break away torque). My GUESS would be about 10 pounds but that is JUST A GUESS since I have never had a reason to measure it (or even try it). Does anyone else have a better number (please post it)? After Frank removes the gear he could replace the nut and turn the shaft with a torque wrench. He will probably need a spacer below the nut, maybe the old gear with all of the teeth removed?

Charlie Stephens

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Old 12-08-2014, 12:39 AM   #179
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Are you guys really going to coach Frank through to a full engine rebuild ?? Ted


jammed the gears rusted the tang
Why not Ted? , the man is here asking for help...might take a bit longer than normal, but he is trying.

I say give Frank his due, and continue to assist him in his issues.


Hey, we all learned somewhere.
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Old 12-08-2014, 06:24 AM   #180
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Get in there with a stainless steel brush and clean the ignition circuit clean the point check the points clean the spark plugs and check gap. Check for fuel pressure.
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:39 AM   #181
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Frank,

If you cut off those ledges you've lost me. They are there for the best of reasons and that is to take the shear load off the two bolts that hold the bracket to the timing gear cover. Think of the pounding that those two bolts would take without the ledges; before long they would beat their threads (steel against cast iron) into ovals.

As you said, if you cut your motor mount bracket to retrieve the timing gear cover you still would have to move the pulley forward to attach a replacement bracket. (If you can't remove it for lack of clearance, you cannot replace it for the same reason.)

There were three different timing gear covers used on 1928-34 four cylinder engines and only the one designed for use in '33-'34 chassis will work in yours. The other two were designed for use in chassis with vertical radiators and crankshaft pulleys nearly an inch longer than yours. Which in turn means that the generator pulleys were nearly an inch further forward. Since the generators attach to the timing gear covers and the generator mounting brackets are all basically the same in terms of dimensions, you have to have the unique-to-'33/'34 timing cover or else your fan belt won't line up with all three (water pump, generator, and crankshaft) pulleys.

I suggest you take a real close look at that other timing gear cover you have and see if the boss for mounting the generator is in exactly the same position front to back as that on your car's timing gear cover.

Ford did not produce any vehicles in North America during either the 1935 model or calendar years that were powered by four-cylinder engines. Ford did continue to produce the engines in the U.S. into the early 1940s, but only for service replacements and for use as industrial engines. I'm curious as to why you think that your spare engine is a '35. A couple of photos of the timing gear cover of that engine would be very educational as well.

Ford did release a two-piece crankshaft pulley for service which is much easier to remove, but not for '33-'34 fours, just for the Model As and '32s. That's unfortunate in this instance.

I doubt if the motive for what you've encountered is money as it was not cheap to tool up for a new timing gear cover, crankshaft pulley, and water pump to accommodate the slanted radiator of the '33-'34s. Whatever the reason, it's engineering at its worst.

You're right about the original assembly sequence; the crank pulley had/has to be added last, which I learned the hard way.
The serial Number on my spare engine is B5334891 32
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:42 AM   #182
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Again, I appreciate everyone;s help.
I am in a holding mode until a solution turns up.
I am in no hurry.... I don;t want to ruin anything.
Here is a list of possible solutions...Some are silly but I am trying to brainstorm

fix considerations
1) Try to remove crank pulley
a) Can they usually be removed after 80 years? Or are pins and bolts frozen.
If break then can I obtain replacement.
What if damage shaft....will I have to replace crank shaft?

2) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Can it be installed? If I can't remove existing one from between ledges on timing cover, Crank pulley, engine oil pan lip...Then how can I insert new bracket in place?

3) with Hack saw Cut off ledgers on Timing cover.
Still have problem, Can bracket fit past
Timing cover dimple for timing gear end bearing "protrudes approx 1 inch Why??? Perhaps can file down approx 1/4 in or so to allow bracket to slide through.

4) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Replace old timing cover with newer one without ledges that Ford produced in 1935. Will this newer Timing cover work on the older 1933 engine???

5) and best just thought of it.
A shallow socket wrench with tapered neck may fit under bracket to undo the last bolt

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Old 12-08-2014, 09:24 AM   #183
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, Any possibility of you posting a picture of your spare engine? Would like to see the front especially. Thanks, Pat
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:45 AM   #184
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Frank,

Forget # 2 and 3 for the reasons previously stated. In #3, that dimple you refer to captures the spring for the camshaft thrust plunger. If you file a 1/4" off it you will likely ruin the cover. Likely 4 won't work as your ledge-less timing gear cover is probably not the unique '33-'34 version of the timing gear cover as stated above. But if by chance it is a revised version of the '33-'34 then this is a viable alternative. In one of my recent posts I indicated how to identify the '33'34 version based on the location of the boss for mounting the generator.

I have a good used '33-'34 crank pulley in case you break yours in the process of removing it. It will come off the end of crankshaft without damaging the crankshaft as there normally is oil in the immediate vicinity and corrosion is not normally an issue. There are no pins or bolts involved except the big one on the end of the crankshaft as described above. The pulley slides on the end of the crankshaft and a notch at the back end of the pulley engages a Woodruff key that is inserted into a slot in the crankshaft. It is held in place by the big bolt that doubles as the engagement point for the hand crank. Once that bolt is removed all that is holding the pulley in place is friction. But there's plenty of it hence the need for a puller in 99 out of 100 instances. Most of that friction comes from the oil seals in the timing gear cover and oil pan as mentioned above.

I also have a spare front motor mount bracket, but if you stick with #1 you won't need it.

If this were my car I would remove the grille and radiator to gain unfettered access to the front of the engine which would then make using a puller on the pulley relatively easy.
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Old 12-08-2014, 09:55 AM   #185
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Frank I guess you have the radiator out and can see if there are holes 2 or 3 for bolts for a puller so not to damage it the pulley.
While thinking drop the pan.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:34 AM   #186
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,
We can all identify with the frustration you are feeling. We have all been there.
Don't give up on asking advise from the knowledgeable folks on this forum.
To those of you pitching in to get Frank through this process, Thanks for living "The Golden Rule".
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Old 12-08-2014, 12:55 PM   #187
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I think you are at the point were the grill needs to come of to work on the cam gear ,you could also jack the motor up about a 1" at the front the rubber rear mounts will flex a little ,you could then slide out the front mount ,Ted
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:56 PM   #188
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I was thinking also that if it were me I would have the grille and the radiator out of the way. This is quite a job, and needs approaching with care. Being able to do the job from the front will be easier than doing it from either side.

On reflection, having said that, I think that if I were doing it I wouldn't remove the grille and rad unless it was absolutely necessary.

Here's me thinking it through:
Slacken crank bolt. Just a couple of turns.
Using a great deal of care, move the crank pulley forward just enough to release the engine mount.
Remove front cover.
Remove cam gear (never had a 4. Is it difficult?).
Rotate cam to make sure all is free.
Align cam and crank and fit new gear (Is an improved version available)
Refit cover.
Refit engine mounts.

Job done.

It ought to be relatively simple, removing the grille and radiator (and probably the hood) and then refitting with all the alignment issues is probably not worth the extra work, as I said, unless absolutely necessary.

Mart.
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Old 12-08-2014, 07:42 PM   #189
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Frank,

The starter motor electrical circuit is not routed through the ammeter so that telltale is not indicative of an electrical problem per se. Check for spark next.
David, it is a good indicator there is something wrong in the electrical. The ammeter will pulsate when cranking the car because of the points. As the points touch, they ground which will show a discharge for a split second. When they break, it will show a neutral or 0 electrical movement.
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Old 12-08-2014, 08:05 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by FrankWest View Post
Again, I appreciate everyone;s help.
I am in a holding mode until a solution turns up.
I am in no hurry.... I don;t want to ruin anything.
Here is a list of possible solutions...Some are silly but I am trying to brainstorm

fix considerations
1) Try to remove crank pulley
a) Can they usually be removed after 80 years? Or are pins and bolts frozen.
If break then can I obtain replacement.
What if damage shaft....will I have to replace crank shaft?

2) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Can it be installed? If I can't remove existing one from between ledges on timing cover, Crank pulley, engine oil pan lip...Then how can I insert new bracket in place?

3) with Hack saw Cut off ledgers on Timing cover.
Still have problem, Can bracket fit past
Timing cover dimple for timing gear end bearing "protrudes approx 1 inch Why??? Perhaps can file down approx 1/4 in or so to allow bracket to slide through.

4) Cut engine support bracket.
Can I find replacement?
Replace old timing cover with newer one without ledges that Ford produced in 1935. Will this newer Timing cover work on the older 1933 engine???

5) and best just thought of it.
A shallow socket wrench with tapered neck may fit under bracket to undo the last bolt
Maybe you need to call me. http://www.model-a-ford-4bangers.com/

The number is at the top of the page.
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Old 12-11-2014, 07:25 AM   #191
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Great news...
finally Got last bolt off
timing cover off
engine bracket off
Only small number of timing gear teeth missing right near crank shaft
slightly hank cranked engine. center crank gear turned, timing gear did NOT
JUST LIKE DAVIDG said
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Old 12-11-2014, 07:29 AM   #192
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Need to get old timing dear off
And select proper timing gear.
Why did Ford use a Plastic like material for original Timing Gear?
Thinking of replacing with aluminum?

What do most 4 cylinder engine owner put in their cars?
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Old 12-11-2014, 07:44 AM   #193
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Eureka! Thanks for sharing the good news.
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Old 12-11-2014, 08:29 AM   #194
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Frank,

I use the original material timing gears. Please recall the millions and millions of miles the 1928-34 fours have run on gears made of that material (as well as most of the pre-WWII V-8s).

As indicated in my PM, the next step is to remove the old gear and verify that nothing is binding the camshaft, such as a rust-frozen distributor shaft.
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Old 12-11-2014, 01:34 PM   #195
Charlie Stephens
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

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Need to get old timing dear off
And select proper timing gear.
Why did Ford use a Plastic like material for original Timing Gear?
Thinking of replacing with aluminum?

Frank,

What do most 4 cylinder engine owner put in their cars?
I assume you have a tool that looks like this for removing the nut on the end of the camshaft? After the gear is off put the nut back on with a spacer and use this tool to check that the camshaft turns freely as Dave suggested.

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Old 12-11-2014, 02:13 PM   #196
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Just ordered one from Brattons..

Once I have it I will check to see if anything is binding...Hope not.
The timing gear was NOT badly broken up just the upper edges of 7 or 8 teeth were sheared off.
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:18 PM   #197
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Frank,

I use the original material timing gears. Please recall the millions and millions of miles the 1928-34 fours have run on gears made of that material (as well as most of the pre-WWII V-8s).

As indicated in my PM, the next step is to remove the old gear and verify that nothing is binding the camshaft, such as a rust-frozen distributor shaft.
I would imagine that in newly manufactured gears the resins are fresh and would not determinate for decades? As could happen in adhesives and laminates over 80 years old.

I wonder if Ford chose this original material as a type of sacrificial safety "valve" that would shear off and prevent engine from being blown if any binding occurred?
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Old 12-11-2014, 02:32 PM   #198
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank, if you can remove the old gear you can then see if the cam turns without unduly heavy loading.

You don't want to wait until you fit the new gear before finding a potential problem.

You will not harm anything by turning the cam while the crank stays still. Cam rotation will be anti-clockwise when viewed from the front.

Mart.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:37 PM   #199
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

I think they used plastic gear so it would be quite Chevy 6 also used them.
I think what happen the dist. shaft was binding and the gear was soft and sheared when trying to start it. The gears were turning fat and happy with oil and the dist was dry and rust and bound up. Removing the dist is easy to do.
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Old 12-11-2014, 04:19 PM   #200
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I think they used plastic gear so it would be quite Chevy 6 also used them.
I think what happen the dist. shaft was binding and the gear was soft and sheared when trying to start it. The gears were turning fat and happy with oil and the dist was dry and rust and bound up. Removing the dist is easy to do.
Thanks for your help...I will check....
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Old 12-13-2014, 06:23 PM   #201
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Default Re: 1933 can't start after recent restart

Frank,
I would use the laminated original material cam gear. T