1933 can't start after recent restart

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

You probably cannot remove the timing gear cover without at least loosening the two special bolts that attachment the front motor mount bracket to the front cross member. It is probably best to remove that bracket altogether as it will only get in the way of your replacing the timing gear (should it prove to have some sheared teeth).

Those ledges that you refer to are characteristic of all '32 and '33-'34 four-cylinder timing gear covers (those two types are different and are not interchangeable).

done
But the engine bracket now loose is still trapped between the ledges and the Lower engine pulley

[George/Maine]

Frank
You will be taking the oil pan down so do it now and look up and see the gears.
If the dist is stuck you can not turn camshaft.
Easy things first pull the dist and prove me wrong. By the way the keyway is only .75 cents.

[FlatheadTed]

Are you guys really going to coach Frank through to a full engine rebuild ?? Ted

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

,We had this problem recently on a Model A and it was the tang on the distributor shaft .water had got in through the head .

jammed the gears rusted the tang

[DavidG]

Frank,

Earlier you had said that you had placed a block of wood under the oil pan and jacked it up. You now need to jack it further to free the front motor mount bracket from the insulators on the front cross member. Once the bracket is no longer resting on the insulators, remove them from the front cross member. This along with perhaps a little further raising of the engine should enable you to rotate the front engine mount sufficiently to clear the ledges and remove it through the narrow opening that exists (or should exist) between the crankshaft pulley and the ledges.

This is a challenge unique to the '33-'34 fours that is the result of the slanting of the radiator rearward (compared to a '32) and the further rearward placement of a four in the '33-'34 chassis (compared to a V-8). That rearward placement wasn't enough to create the needed clearance between the fan and the radiator so they shortened the water pump, moved the generator back, and reduced the length of the crankshaft pulley. The net result is that there is very little space between the back of the crankshaft pulley and the ledges on the front of the timing gear front cover. There was a better way to handle the greater overall length of a four than a V-8 in a '33-'34 chassis, but it is what it is, namely a compromise.

[Mart]

Would it be a big deal to loosen the crank pulley bolt and pull the pulley slightly forward?

Mart.

[FrankWest]

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Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

Earlier you had said that you had placed a block of wood under the oil pan and jacked it up. You now need to jack it further to free the front motor mount bracket from the insulators on the front cross member. Once the bracket is no longer resting on the insulators, remove them from the front cross member. This along with perhaps a little further raising of the engine should enable you to rotate the front engine mount sufficiently to clear the ledges and remove it through the narrow opening that exists (or should exist) between the crankshaft pulley and the ledges.

This is a challenge unique to the '33-'34 fours that is the result of the slanting of the radiator rearward (compared to a '32) and the further rearward placement of a four in the '33-'34 chassis (compared to a V-8). That rearward placement wasn't enough to create the needed clearance between the fan and the radiator so they shortened the water pump, moved the generator back, and reduced the length of the crankshaft pulley. The net result is that there is very little space between the back of the crankshaft pulley and the ledges on the front of the timing gear front cover. There was a better way to handle the greater overall length of a four than a V-8 in a '33-'34 chassis, but it is what is, namely a compromise.

I already took the bolts out of the insulator pads...the pads are solidified and I will replace them.
So you say I should jack up the engine slightly higher to allow me to twist out the racket which is now loose.
can the engine take this lifting without damage to the "linkage" I believe they call it?

[DavidG]

Frank,

It can take it up to a point as what you are doing is slightly rotating the rear of the transmission in the rubber ring in the center of the rear motor/transmission mount attached to the center cross member. The output shaft on the end of the transmission is attached directly to the universal joint on the front of the driveshaft so movement there is not a problem (within limits, of course).

If you are concerned about distorting the rear motor/transmission mount, you could loosen the two hex head bolts that attach the mount to the center cross member. Unfortunately, access to those bolts requires the removal of the V-shaped sheet metal panel that covers up the top of the transmission and forms part of the floor. I would not do that unless you are absolutely unable to achieve enough space to rotate the front motor mount bracket clear of the ledges on the timing gear cover after you remove the two rubber and steel motor mount insulators from the front cross member.

[DavidG]

In re-reading your last note, I'm not sure that you had removed the insulators or just the bolts that pass through the insulators. You will not create enough space to rotate the front motor mount bracket sufficiently without removing the insulators from the front cross member. If you leave them in place and try to jack up the front of the engine to achieve the needed clearance you will have jacked it up too far and you will run the risk of permanent damage to the rear motor/transmission mount.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

It can take it up to a point as what you are doing is slightly rotating the rear of the transmission in the rubber ring in the center of the rear motor/transmission mount attached to the center cross member. The output shaft on the end of the transmission is attached directly to the universal joint on the front of the driveshaft so movement there is not a problem (within limits, of course).

If you are concerned about distorting the rear motor/transmission mount, you could loosen the two hex head bolts that attach the mount to the center cross member. Unfortunately, access to those bolts requires the removal of the V-shaped sheet metal panel that covers up the top of the transmission and forms part of the floor. I would not do that unless you are absolutely unable to achieve enough space to rotate the front motor mount bracket clear of the ledges on the timing gear cover after you remove the two rubber and steel motor mount insulators from the front cross member.

even if I removed the engine the bracket is still trapped between the ledges on the timing cover and crank pulley and the oil pain top flang.
It looks like only the pulley removal would release the bracket.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mart

Would it be a big deal to loosen the crank pulley bolt and pull the pulley slightly forward?

Mart.

That is probably the only way to release the trapped loose bracket.

Does that pulley come off easily? Is the bolt on the neck?
Mart.[/QUOTE]

[DavidG]

Frank,

I truly wish that the answer to that question was yes, the pulley comes off easily, but that is not the case. The bolt that retains the pulley on the end of the crankshaft is in front, in center of the pulley. The forward portion has four slots and what sort look like teeth and that's where you engaged your hand crank, assuming that is what you used to turn the crankshaft. The center of it is hex shaped (1 3/8" across the flats) which is where one tightens or loosens the screw.

Assuming that you're able to loosen that screw then the pulley is pulled forward to remove it or in you case enough to create some clearance to remove the front motor mount bracket. The problem is that the pulley, if original, is made of cast iron and it is very easy to chip the lips of the pulley if you simply try to pry at the pulley to move it forward. The only safe way to pull the pulley forward is with an appropriately-configured puller, preferably one with at least three fingers to capture the back lip of the pulley in three places. Depending on the size and configuration of the puller there may not be enough room between the front spring u-bolts/hand crank guide/raised portion of the front cross member to permit the puller to be square with the crankshaft pulley.

There's about 3/4" of clearance between the front of the pulley and the back of the raised portion of the front cross member which is more than enough room for your purpose of moving the pulley forward an 1/8th or so.

May be you will be very lucky and can slide the pulley forward once you have removed the retaining bolt. In addition to the pulley being a relatively tight fit on the end of the crankshaft, the oil seals in the bottom of the timing gear cover and the top of the front of the oil pan will fight you as they understandably are a tight fit up against the shank of the pulley. You've loosened the front timing gear cover so that will take the pressure off that side of the oil seal. You would need to drop the front end of the oil pan to relieve the pressure on the oil pan side of the oil seal. It still very likely will not be enough for you to be able pull the pulley forward without the use of a puller of some sort.

The front end of '33-'34 four-cylinder engine is the epitome of dumb design.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Frank,

I truly wish that the answer to that question was yes, the pulley comes off easily, but that is not the case. The bolt that retains the pulley on the end of the crankshaft is in front, in center of the pulley. The forward portion has four slots and what sort look like teeth and that's where you engaged your hand crank, assuming that is what you used to turn the crankshaft. The center of it is hex shaped (1 3/8" across the flats) which is where one tightens or loosens the screw.

Assuming that you're able to loosen that screw then the pulley is pulled forward to remove it or in you case enough to create some clearance to remove the front motor mount bracket. The problem is that the pulley, if original, is made of cast iron and it is very easy to chip the lips of the pulley if you simply try to pry at the pulley to move it forward. The only safe way to pull the pulley forward is with an appropriately-configured puller, preferably one with at least three fingers to capture the back lip of the pulley in three places. Depending on the size and configuration of the puller there may not be enough room between the front spring u-bolts/hand crank guide/raised portion of the front cross member to permit the puller to be square with the crankshaft pulley.

There's about 3/4" of clearance between the front of the pulley and the back of the raised portion of the front cross member which is more than enough room for your purpose of moving the pulley forward an 1/8th or so.

May be you will be very lucky and can slide the pulley forward once you have removed the retaining bolt. In addition to the pulley being a relatively tight fit on the end of the crankshaft, the oil seals in the bottom of the timing gear cover and the top of the front of the oil pan will fight you as they understandably are a tight fit up against the shank of the pulley. You've loosened the front timing gear cover so that will take the pressure off that side of the oil seal. You would need to drop the front end of the oil pan to relieve the pressure on the oil pan side of the oil seal. It still very likely will not be enough for you to be able pull the pulley forward without the use of a puller of some sort.

The front end of '33-'34 four-cylinder engine is the epitome of dumb design.

I remember reading that the model B engine was longer than the v8 so they had to make modifications. I never know that that meant disposable engines!

Funny, I have another model B engine that I bought from the guy that sold me this car. He said it was rebuilt. From it;s serial number it was built in 1935... And it has no ledges on the timing cover.. I guess they learned their lesson.

May I should cut off the ledges on my 1933 engine then I could slid the bracket right of. The bracket has 2 bolts that go into the Timing cover They probably do not need those 2 PIA ledges..

What would be the best way to cut or grind off those ledges???
I would make sure to drain all the fuel out and let the car duel lines dry out before cutting or grinding the ledges.

[FrankWest]

Maybe I should cut the engine bracket remove and then replace the timing cover with one without ledges? The only problem seems that the bearing bulge for the timing gear seems to protrude approx 1 inch rather than 1/2 inch on the 1935 timing cover??

[FrankWest]

This truly has become a real soap opera!

Well, what are you gonna do.
Funny thing was that, I didn't buy the 1933 v8 because it had a 1935 engine and the interior was destroyed too.
My consolation is that thousands of hot rodders are always dropping new engines in these cars.....so I should learn to think outside the box.

If I just cut off the motor bracket to replace later with a new I don;t think I be able to get the new one in place with the ledges present and the crank pulley on.
During manufacture the crank pully must have been put on after the engine was mounted. What the heck was Henry thinking....Make more money!

[Bob C]

If the bracket is loose will it twist or wiggle enough that you can get the
bolts that are behind the bracket out, then you could remove the bracket
and timing gear cover at the same time.

Bob

[Mike B]

I know this isn't a SBC, but could the crank threads be stripped?

I/e does the crank p-ully rotate when the engine is turned over?

[DavidG]

Frank,

If you cut off those ledges you've lost me. They are there for the best of reasons and that is to take the shear load off the two bolts that hold the bracket to the timing gear cover. Think of the pounding that those two bolts would take without the ledges; before long they would beat their threads (steel against cast iron) into ovals.

As you said, if you cut your motor mount bracket to retrieve the timing gear cover you still would have to move the pulley forward to attach a replacement bracket. (If you can't remove it for lack of clearance, you cannot replace it for the same reason.)

There were three different timing gear covers used on 1928-34 four cylinder engines and only the one designed for use in '33-'34 chassis will work in yours. The other two were designed for use in chassis with vertical radiators and crankshaft pulleys nearly an inch longer than yours. Which in turn means that the generator pulleys were nearly an inch further forward. Since the generators attach to the timing gear covers and the generator mounting brackets are all basically the same in terms of dimensions, you have to have the unique-to-'33/'34 timing cover or else your fan belt won't line up with all three (water pump, generator, and crankshaft) pulleys.

I suggest you take a real close look at that other timing gear cover you have and see if the boss for mounting the generator is in exactly the same position front to back as that on your car's timing gear cover.

Ford did not produce any vehicles in North America during either the 1935 model or calendar years that were powered by four-cylinder engines. Ford did continue to produce the engines in the U.S. into the early 1940s, but only for service replacements and for use as industrial engines. I'm curious as to why you think that your spare engine is a '35. A couple of photos of the timing gear cover of that engine would be very educational as well.

Ford did release a two-piece crankshaft pulley for service which is much easier to remove, but not for '33-'34 fours, just for the Model As and '32s. That's unfortunate in this instance.

I doubt if the motive for what you've encountered is money as it was not cheap to tool up for a new timing gear cover, crankshaft pulley, and water pump to accommodate the slanted radiator of the '33-'34s. Whatever the reason, it's engineering at its worst.

You're right about the original assembly sequence; the crank pulley had/has to be added last, which I learned the hard way.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Mart

I'd recommend turning the cam. I know you can't with the gear as it is, but there must be a reason why the gear stripped it's teeth. There may be a sticking valve or some other reason that may have caused an extra load on the cam and stripped the gear teeth. If you can turn the cam by hand you can first of all see if it stops before making a complete turn, but also check that the turning force to open all valves is more or less equal.
Mart.

Mart,

I was thinking the same thing when I read your post. One piece of information Frank is going to need is what torque should it take to turn the cam (after the initial break away torque). My GUESS would be about 10 pounds but that is JUST A GUESS since I have never had a reason to measure it (or even try it). Does anyone else have a better number (please post it)? After Frank removes the gear he could replace the nut and turn the shaft with a torque wrench. He will probably need a spacer below the nut, maybe the old gear with all of the teeth removed?

Charlie Stephens

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

Are you guys really going to coach Frank through to a full engine rebuild ?? Ted


jammed the gears rusted the tang

Why not Ted? , the man is here asking for help...might take a bit longer than normal, but he is trying.

I say give Frank his due, and continue to assist him in his issues.


Hey, we all learned somewhere.

[Richard]

Get in there with a stainless steel brush and clean the ignition circuit clean the point check the points clean the spark plugs and check gap. Check for fuel pressure.