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Old 09-15-2014, 07:52 AM   #181
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
I might be off base, but who would take and engine in to get rebuilt, and be told:

We need to sleeve a hole"

Okay...

Then the shop would order 7 pistons at ones size, and one at another?

Have you actually seen this?...I'd be extremely surprised...again...talking shop work, not when Bubba took it in and used what he had.

And realistically, what would a 1/2 cube of inches, and .01 of compression, affect the performance of an engine like a FH V8?

My personal opinion, is if I had a 60 over block and a standard sleeve size in a hole,,,no one could tell a bit of difference in a street build.
Actually this method is all too common. Even today engines rebuilt by Jasper, a very large corporation, does this as a matter of course. They go the "whatever is cheaper" method.

In a flathead it may not make a huge difference but it will make a difference.
I suppose it all boils down to doing a job correctly or doing it half a--ed.
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Old 09-15-2014, 07:56 AM   #182
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Some mechanics are fast, others half-fast.
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Old 09-15-2014, 09:01 AM   #183
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I would be more concerned about the imbalance created by different sized pistons. I don't think anyone who would bore just one hole would balance it.
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Old 09-15-2014, 09:47 AM   #184
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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If H's engine had one bore sleaved then I would guess the bad piston or a piston pin cut into the cyl wall on thay cyl.
It was a bit more than just a little scrape. This was my piston that caused the cylinder wall damage. Sleeving was the only option.



And, if those piston fragments weren't enough, how about this splintered wrist pin jammed against the cylinder wall so hard that the connecting rod was bent?


Full story here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104413
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Old 09-15-2014, 10:33 AM   #185
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Actually this method is all too common. Even today engines rebuilt by Jasper, a very large corporation, does this as a matter of course. They go the "whatever is cheaper" method.

I see your point, I suppose a large rebuilding house could save a buck or two per rebuild and over the course of time it would add up to some decent profit.

Sad thing.
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Old 09-15-2014, 10:36 AM   #186
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Regarding different size pistons, and weights... it's been my experience that the piston suppliers I've used supply their pistons to the ORIGINAL weight, no matter the size. This has been for near-stock sizes, say up to about 60 or 80.
Regarding the bent rod... now we see that at least one rod was likely replaced. I hope its weight was compared to the other 7.
Side observation/comment...this engine has had at least two recent 'rebuilds', and now going for a 3rd. And I see that a full-floater crank is still being used. I'm a little surprised, as I'd have ditched that crank and rods, at least two rebuilds back. I guess that's just me. I'd at least have an 8BA crank, but more likely a Merc or aftermarket crank. If cost were a factor (which at this point I doubt) I'd go for the 8BA, as my builder/machine shop guy hands them out for free. JMHO
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:37 AM   #187
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Tell me more about the difference between the 59A crank and the 8BA crank please. I know nothing.
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Old 09-15-2014, 12:41 PM   #188
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

59A crank uses full-floating rod bearings, as (most) all 32-48's have. Bearings cost more, and some 'talent' is required to properly fit them (so they will 'float'). 8BA crank uses rods with 'locked' bearing inserts, which has been the common 'industry-standard' from 1949 forward (regardless of make). Insert bearings cost less, and are generally easier to install, requiring less talent (assuming the machinist does a proper job). A few 59A engines came originally equipped with 8BA rods and crank, as well as 8BA valve assemblies. (My 47 has one of these 59A engines - probably a 59A replacement engine.)
Your engine is partway there, as you indicated in post 167 that you probably have 8BA valve assemblies.
It would be logical, at least to me, to add the 8BA rods and crank, or maybe a Merc crank if you want a few more inches.
All this info is available in old posts, and I believe, in Ron's book.
The info i've posted here, pretty much goes out the window, if you select a stroke larger than 4.0 (Merc). I think larger strokes require floating rod bearings.
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Old 09-15-2014, 12:57 PM   #189
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Thanks for the info on the 8BA crank and bearings.
Other than being cheaper to buy and easier to install, do the locked bearings last any longer? It wouldn't seem that they would since all the wear is only on one side instead of dividing it between two sides.
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:16 PM   #190
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Some of us believe that floaters can last a long time, maybe approaching 'forever'. I think Ron posted recently about re-using old, original, floaters. Of course, he took a little flak over the comment. I have one friend, over 85, who has a bucket of old, original, floaters, that he routinely uses in his own engines. I've known this person for nearly 20 years, and he has never had one of his 'recycled' engines fail. (I'm talking stockers, no race/hot rods.) JMO
(There is still the puzzle of what went south in your engine. Where did all the material in the pan come from? Hope I didn't miss a post. Your bearings don't appear to be the cause of the problem - only the result of another problem.) JMO

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Old 09-15-2014, 02:43 PM   #191
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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There is still the puzzle of what went south in your engine. Where did all the material in the pan come from? Hope I didn't miss a post. Your bearings don't appear to be the cause of the problem - only the result of another problem. JMO
Agreed. I'm still wondering about that too.
It may well be something as mysterious as the "harmonic" thing Binx talked about in #153. If so, and it was caused by the bad U-joint, hopefully that won't be repeated.
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Old 09-15-2014, 04:48 PM   #192
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Got the dip stick boss in so took it down to Paul and to check status.
He has delivered the engine to the machinist who checked it out and didn't find any glaring problems with anything as far as the block went. Cylinders were fine as well as pistons, etc. He's going to remove the cam shaft and valves and flush it all out then reinstall them. He's also going to machine the crank then check the fit of the rods and resize them if necessary. Then he'll order the bearings to make sure to get the right ones and fit.

In discussing the source of all of the metal in the oil pan with Paul, he showed me how all of the bearings were totally devoid of their top layer of silver metal on both sides which would account for all of the silver pieces in the oil pan. He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.

Knowing the difference between the 59A and 8BA cranks he didn't think there was any reason to change as long as the clearances on the 59A crank were right.

Hopefully it all gets just right this time and lasts much longer.

We'll see.
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:02 PM   #193
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

[QUOTE=Old Henry;946395]

He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.
QUOTE]

So WHO might have been responsible for getting those clearances "right".....TWICE? DD
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Old 09-15-2014, 05:35 PM   #194
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Henry-I know you are getting a lot of advice and people are spending your money like the government. One thing I would recommend is having the fly wheel, pressure plate and disc balanced as a unit. The guy who re-built my engine recommended doing it, he was right. Engine runs very smooth. As for the fly wheel I would have a machinist check it out, there must be specs on how much it can be ground.
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Old 09-15-2014, 06:24 PM   #195
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Got the dip stick boss in so took it down to Paul and to check status.
He has delivered the engine to the machinist who checked it out and didn't find any glaring problems with anything as far as the block went. Cylinders were fine as well as pistons, etc. He's going to remove the cam shaft and valves and flush it all out then reinstall them. He's also going to machine the crank then check the fit of the rods and resize them if necessary. Then he'll order the bearings to make sure to get the right ones and fit.

In discussing the source of all of the metal in the oil pan with Paul, he showed me how all of the bearings were totally devoid of their top layer of silver metal on both sides which would account for all of the silver pieces in the oil pan. He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.

Knowing the difference between the 59A and 8BA cranks he didn't think there was any reason to change as long as the clearances on the 59A crank were right.

Hopefully it all gets just right this time and lasts much longer.

We'll see.
YES I hold the same hope ( it gets just right ) this time, too, I wish there was talk about " line boring and balance " I'am a big fan of both, especial in this case line boring of this engine, but ?? so be it. ..it will be just right "so now the PILOT BEARING" use the bronze oil lite, bearing this time, not the roller bearing type, and check it on the trans. front input shaft, for fit ?? .....OLD....BILL
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Old 09-15-2014, 09:16 PM   #196
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post

In discussing the source of all of the metal in the oil pan with Paul, he showed me how all of the bearings were totally devoid of their top layer of silver metal on both sides which would account for all of the silver pieces in the oil pan. He also expressed his opinion again that the reason all of the bearings wore out was because the clearances of them were not right.


I have to disagree. This is classic "fatigue" failure due to hammering a properly fit bearing. If it was an improper fit it would have melted the outer surface and scored into the next two layers.

Lonnie
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Old 09-15-2014, 09:28 PM   #197
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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I have to disagree. This is classic "fatigue" failure due to hammering a properly fit bearing. If it was an improper fit it would have melted the outer surface and scored into the next two layers.

Lonnie
What do you mean by "hammering a properly fit bearing"?
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Old 09-15-2014, 09:38 PM   #198
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Here: Look at "surface fatigue"

http://www.wilmink.nl/Clevite/Clevit..._tech_info.pdf

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Old 09-15-2014, 11:54 PM   #199
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Indeed. Of all of the possible causes determinable from the appearance of the damaged bearings, surface fatigue does look like the most likely.

Recommendations for me as the operator to avoid such include:

  • Don't lug the engine
  • Avoid premature detonation
  • Avoid overfueling (don't know what that is)
  • No "hot rodding"

As far as I know, I have religiously kept all of those rules and will continue.



I will also be replacing the oil pump so that there is no oil starvation which can also cause bearing damage.

Otherwise, for the mechanic, just replace all of the bearings using proper preparation (grinding) of surfaces and installation techniques.

Great article with everything a person would need to know about bearing failure. I've saved it in my valuable information documents.

Thanks
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Old 09-16-2014, 01:49 AM   #200
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Overfuelling means the mixture is too rich.

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