Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-10-2019, 03:03 PM   #41
JoeCB
Member
 
JoeCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Farmington MI
Posts: 45
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

And Dad and I used to laugh at his story of having to tow his "A" around the block after doing a (not so good) bearing job on the engine. This, back in the early 40's when he was an aspiring shade tree mechanic.

Joe B
JoeCB is offline  
Old 09-10-2019, 03:12 PM   #42
Railcarmover
Senior Member
 
Railcarmover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Ford used over 40 different steel designs during the model a .They sampled during a heat and tested after cooling and treatment,employing the largest number electric furnaces in the world in the upset and spring shop..brinell hardness was just one of them..they even performed failure analysis..
Railcarmover is offline  
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-10-2019, 03:45 PM   #43
Purdy Swoft
Senior Member
 
Purdy Swoft's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 7,204
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

I've read that some are considering increasing the clearance on the rear main bearing to three thousands . the rear main bearing is around an inch longer than the front and center main bearings .
Purdy Swoft is offline  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:50 PM   #44
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 2,943
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
I've read that some are considering increasing the clearance on the rear main bearing to three thousands . the rear main bearing is around an inch longer than the front and center main bearings .
I've read that this extra clearance is a 'crutch' to keep from seizing the rear main in an inserted engine. Anything to that?
40 Deluxe is offline  
Old 09-10-2019, 05:46 PM   #45
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 5,036
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

I've had too many bearings rattle at .003" [ every day engines]

On the 'A' I tend to tighten the rear bearing a bit more thinking helps with leakage.
Where another engines, such as big block Chrysler's, I increase the rear clearance [.0035"] which helps with rear flange breakage under hard use.
Patrick L. is offline  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:23 PM   #46
Terry Burtz, Calif
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Campbell,CA, USA
Posts: 62
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Brent,
My copy of A-6015 has EI 12403 3/28/1929 incorporated with no Brinell hardness mentioned.
Your copy of A-6015 has EI 13436 7/10/1929 incorporated with the Brinell hardness note added.
Terry Burtz, Calif is offline  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:43 PM   #47
Railcarmover
Senior Member
 
Railcarmover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Ford was teaching Brinell and Rockwell hardness testing techniques to trade school boys in 1934..


Railcarmover is offline  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:45 PM   #48
Railcarmover
Senior Member
 
Railcarmover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe View Post
I've read that this extra clearance is a 'crutch' to keep from seizing the rear main in an inserted engine. Anything to that?
Does this issue have anything to do with inserts designed for pressurized systems?
Railcarmover is offline  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:11 AM   #49
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 10,005
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

The only way to affect a specific hardness on the old cast iron formula was to carefully control what was added in the mix at the foundry. If you look at the note. It mentions taking a reading on a scrap block since the Brinell test leaves a larger mark than Rockwell. Casting technology is a lot different now than it was back then. They were trying to insure uniformity in the casting process. Ductile or "nodular" cast iron had not been developed yet.
rotorwrench is offline  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:27 AM   #50
Jim Brierley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 2,848
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

I set all mains at .0025" on my inserted race engines, with a groove to feed the rear at 2 different spots. First I ever heard Patrick L's story about extra clearance helping rear flange breakage!
Jim Brierley is offline  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:45 PM   #51
Railcarmover
Senior Member
 
Railcarmover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Brierley View Post
I set all mains at .0025" on my inserted race engines, with a groove to feed the rear at 2 different spots. First I ever heard Patrick L's story about extra clearance helping rear flange breakage!
So the rear main starves? that the cause of failure? stands to reason.do you have a problem with rear main leakage with two grooves?
Railcarmover is offline  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:37 PM   #52
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,944
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

If you use 0 clearance you will never get the engine to turn. If it would it would melt the babbitt, there would be no oil flow. O clearance is BS
George Miller is offline  
Old 09-11-2019, 10:22 PM   #53
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: 60615,330th Ave.,Clare, Iowa, 50524
Posts: 1,378
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Miller View Post
If you use 0 clearance you will never get the engine to turn. If it would it would melt the babbitt, there would be no oil flow. O clearance is BS
" Agree "

Herm.
Kohnke Rebabbitting is online now  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:05 PM   #54
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: 60615,330th Ave.,Clare, Iowa, 50524
Posts: 1,378
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Railcarmover View Post
So the rear main starves? that the cause of failure? stands to reason.do you have a problem with rear main leakage with two grooves?
With out the right kinds of grooves, you have bearing failure.

The biggest cause of flange breakage, is that the Babbitt wasn't peened,, or lack of knowledge how to do it right.

Many shops don't peen at all. I have also seen videos of peening, that should have been left to Luck.

You have to peen the ends of the bearings also, the thrust.

Herm.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Giles 002.jpg (42.6 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 019.jpg (38.1 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 138.jpg (51.0 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 139.jpg (44.8 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 225.jpg (55.7 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 299.jpg (39.2 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg Giles 300.jpg (41.1 KB, 36 views)
Kohnke Rebabbitting is online now  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:48 PM   #55
31Abone
Senior Member
 
31Abone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Big pine Ca 93513
Posts: 683
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Thanks for posting this ,I did not know it had been gone thru before..sc
31Abone is offline  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:32 AM   #56
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 5,036
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

I raced for Chrysler for a number of years and built the engines. Sudden left off of power would snap the cranks at times at the rear flange. Increasing the rear main clearance stopped it. Also letting off on the power slower probably had a lot to do with it too. [smiley face]
Patrick L. is offline  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:55 AM   #57
mike657894
Senior Member
 
mike657894's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Bay City Michigan
Posts: 906
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick L. View Post
I raced for Chrysler for a number of years and built the engines. Sudden left off of power would snap the cranks at times at the rear flange. Increasing the rear main clearance stopped it. Also letting off on the power slower probably had a lot to do with it too. [smiley face]



there has to be some good stories. what years and what cars and classes? I always dreamed of racing cars as a kid still do. but im just a stiff with a job.


I dreamed of f1 when I was a kid. I have a loose plan to get a used fwd race car for the beginner class at the local circle track when the kids grow up.
mike657894 is offline  
Old 09-12-2019, 10:04 AM   #58
mike657894
Senior Member
 
mike657894's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Bay City Michigan
Posts: 906
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

in the video where he gets its going it doesn't drag much. he states some thing like 120lbs of force required to turn it. just lets off a short chirp and is rolling over. I would say my well broken in engine takes about 50lbs to move the crank. not measured so that could be way off.
mike657894 is offline  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:48 AM   #59
Jim Brierley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 2,848
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Railcarmover, I'm not sure the rear bearing would run dry, just don't want to chance it. On my insert engine I run a 1-piece Burtz seal, and it stays dry. I also run a babbitted mains engine on the salt using a rope seal, and it drips a little but not much. Ran 167 mph on babbitt in 2013, no problems with the engine, just turbo failure, so no record.
Jim Brierley is offline  
Old 09-12-2019, 02:03 PM   #60
Patrick L.
Senior Member
 
Patrick L.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Upstate NY and western Florida
Posts: 5,036
Default Re: babbit tolerance? .000?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike657894 View Post
there has to be some good stories. what years and what cars and classes? I always dreamed of racing cars as a kid still do. but im just a stiff with a job.


I dreamed of f1 when I was a kid. I have a loose plan to get a used fwd race car for the beginner class at the local circle track when the kids grow up.


There are some good stories/memories. But,,,,

Last edited by Patrick L.; 09-12-2019 at 03:48 PM.
Patrick L. is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:21 PM.