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Old 07-28-2015, 01:07 PM   #1
1955cj5
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Default Timing gear teeth...??

Bert's sells timing gears that are .003 over, .005 over and .010 over standard....

I called and that is the width of the teeth and not the diameter of the gear...

But, they did not know the width of a standard sized gear's teeth...

does anyone have a new one that they can measure..?

My old one measures .110 and there is .040 of gear lash...

I know I should replace them both, but a full rebuild is in the future so I'm trying to keep this project simple....

Randy
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

cj5 - What you have stated " that is the width of the teeth and not the diameter of the gear" isn't making sense to me.

After talking to Dan McEachen (the who makes oversize gears); he states the over standard measurement refers to the center to center distance from the crankshaft to the camshaft.

I wonder if there was a misunderstanding?
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Old 07-28-2015, 03:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron/IA View Post
.... he states the over standard measurement refers to the center to center distance from the crankshaft to the camshaft....
Uh ?? Surely this is an absolute unalterable measurement .
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Old 07-28-2015, 03:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

Making the teeth wider would work just fine.

That is why you should get the distance correct between the crank and cam. There is no reason not to.

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Old 07-28-2015, 04:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

I will try to answer both, with what i know......

You have to understand that Bert's oversize gears are Bert's, and no one elses. I asked them if the "oversize" referred to the diameter of the gear or the width of the teeth, he said the width of the teeth...

I do understand that Dan McEachern makes oversize gears that are over sized in diameter, to compensate for the spacing of the cam and crank depending on where the babbitt gets line bored....

I think we are discussing two different products...
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Old 07-28-2015, 04:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

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Ah yes the teeth must get wider as the diameter of the cam wheel gets bigger( unless you bung in an extra tooth!) but crank shaft centre to cam shaft centre is fixed and unchangeable.
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Old 07-28-2015, 04:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

I guess I need to ask what condition the crank gear is in ? A bad one can eat a cam gear fairly quickly. As your lash is .040" I'm wondering if thats the case.
At .040" it must make a heck of a racket.
I'm thinking it would be hard to come up with an answer other than trial and error. I doubt they would let you return a gear once its been installed and checked for clearance.
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Old 07-28-2015, 06:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

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I guess I need to ask what condition the crank gear is in ? A bad one can eat a cam gear fairly quickly. As your lash is .040" I'm wondering if thats the case.
At .040" it must make a heck of a racket.
I'm thinking it would be hard to come up with an answer other than trial and error. I doubt they would let you return a gear once its been installed and checked for clearance.
Yes, that is what I was thinking.....this cam gear is a fiber one and does not look that bad...but obviously it is worn.

I measured the lash again with a dial indicator and got .036...

Width of the cam teeth i sampled was about .108 to .110

If I knew what a new standard gear tooth measured I might be able to make a lucky guess and only buy one gear.

I know the solution is to buy both, but I do not not have a press ....maybe it's not necessary?

I'm planning a full rebuild in the next 6 months or so so this was really just a clutch and cam gear replacement and checking the bearing clearances...

Tough to tell anything from the pictures....
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Old 07-28-2015, 06:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

You don't really need a press to get a new crank gear on. I just heated the gear and it went on without too much fanfare just using the crank nut to press it on. Of course, the cam gear is just on there with it's silly nut (unless you have one of the new kind that takes a regular socket.)
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Old 07-28-2015, 06:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

I do notice something in the pictures that may be issue.
It looks to me that the crank and cam are not parallel.
If you look at the crank gear tooth surface on the drive side, it shows even wear across the face of the tooth. The idle side shows only contact on the rear half of the gear indicating that the rear CL is closer than the front CL.

It probably does not make or break the setup, however, it would accelerate the wear of one of the gears, probably the non-metallic one.

Put in a new composite gear and measure the backlash, then drive it.
It will more than likely last for a long time.

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Old 07-28-2015, 06:40 PM   #11
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

Well maybe I'll just order both then....A new crank gear and a new standard cam gear....and i have the silly nut...perhaps i should also get one of the hex-head replacements...
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Old 07-28-2015, 06:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnneilson View Post
I do notice something in the pictures that may be issue.
It looks to me that the crank and cam are not parallel.
If you look at the crank gear tooth surface on the drive side, it shows even wear across the face of the tooth. The idle side shows only contact on the rear half of the gear indicating that the rear CL is closer than the front CL.

It probably does not make or break the setup, however, it would accelerate the wear of one of the gears, probably the non-metallic one.

Put in a new composite gear and measure the backlash, then drive it.
It will more than likely last for a long time.

John
Thanks John, I noticed that also but did not know what it meant...the crank end play is a little out of spec...maybe that would cause the odd wear pattern?
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Old 07-28-2015, 09:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

If you are doing a full rebuild in 6 months, why not just run with these two gears until that time?
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Old 07-28-2015, 09:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

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If you are doing a full rebuild in 6 months, why not just run with these two gears until that time?
That is a thought for sure....but 6 mos is not a hard and fast date....and I'd like to improve this engine if I can, as long as it's apart.
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Old 07-28-2015, 10:36 PM   #15
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

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Originally Posted by 1955cj5 View Post
Thanks John, I noticed that also but did not know what it meant...the crank end play is a little out of spec...maybe that would cause the odd wear pattern?
I am not sure that the end play would cause the wear pattern like this.

If it was me, I would just replace the gear and start planning.

Do you have any idea how much mileage is on this motor?

All the Best, John
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Old 07-28-2015, 10:52 PM   #16
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

John,

The mileage is unknown. Since 1962 I doubt if it's seen more than a few thousand miles..the speedometer never worked.....but the 1930 engine and 4-speed were installed before we owned it.

I do not have the right tools but my best measurements show the bore to be .060 over.

It ran well enough, but was down on power...noticeable on hills, but it would do 45 on level roads...
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Old 07-29-2015, 01:36 AM   #17
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

Not sure I understand how over size gear teeth fit between the crank gear teeth that space is only so wide ???
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Old 07-29-2015, 02:19 AM   #18
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

FWIW:

Some Model A owners have had problems with either noisy timing gears; and/or rapidly wearing timing gears caused by non-aligned and non-parallel crankshafts.

Dan will not brag on his accomplishments; however, he has a reputation of having had great success with curing this misalignment problem after Model A owners had installed his "matched" set of his hand crafted metal timing gears accompanied by his "matching" hand crafted metal crank gears.

Most men are not even close to perfectionists ..... most men cannot even successfully cook fluffy white rice either .... don' t ask how I know.
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Old 07-29-2015, 07:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

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Not sure I understand how over size gear teeth fit between the crank gear teeth that space is only so wide ???
Colin, If the main bearings are line bored a few thou different from the original position, the distance from camshaft centreline to crankshaft centreline will be different. Clearly once the bearings are bored, the distance doesn't change for the life of that rebuild. We take great care to get it right before starting the line borer. Measure twice, cut once!
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Old 07-29-2015, 01:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1955cj5 View Post
I will try to answer both, with what i know......

You have to understand that Bert's oversize gears are Bert's, and no one elses. I asked them if the "oversize" referred to the diameter of the gear or the width of the teeth, he said the width of the teeth...

I do understand that Dan McEachern makes oversize gears that are over sized in diameter, to compensate for the spacing of the cam and crank depending on where the babbitt gets line bored....

I think we are discussing two different products...
Gear engineering is a very complicated subject.It is easy to get terminology mixed up when first learning it.
One thing that is seldom mentioned when discussing over or under size gears is how it is done. It is process called "generating up or down" as the case may be.
Here is a URL that will explain most of the terms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...re#Pitch_angle
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Old 07-29-2015, 04:50 PM   #21
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

Now I remember why I dropped my engineering classes....But thanks for the link..it is interesting...

I just really was hoping someone would take a caliper and measure the width of a tooth on a standard, reasonably new cam gear at the tooth's apex.

I get .109"
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Old 08-07-2015, 05:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

I received the new standard cam gear today and also the new crank gear...


These are going to make a huge difference...

I was getting about .035" of gear lash before...

I get about .015 difference between old and new for the cam gear teeth, and another .016 difference for the crank gear teeth..

That accounts for about .031 and that leaves about .004 which is right in the middle of the "normal" lash range....

You don't even need to measure to see the difference in the cam gear...
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:28 PM   #23
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

I don't know....it had a "Ford" licensed part sticker on it....maybe you can't trust anything or anybody...
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

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I don't know....it had a "Ford" licensed part sticker on it....maybe you can't trust anything or anybody...
That means nothing as far as quality. It means Ford gets a payment for having their name on the package.
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:42 PM   #25
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

So does someone have an NOS OEM perfect timing gear they would like to send me?

What am I supposed to do????
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:22 PM   #26
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

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Aluminum, brass gears. or just wait until you're ready for the rebuild.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

This is a done deal.....how about a positive comment?
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Old 08-08-2015, 12:13 AM   #28
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

"This is a done deal.....how about a positive comment?"
OK, a positive comment:
Drive it the way you have it!
And then don't come back and complain about what will inevitably happen, positively!
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Old 08-08-2015, 04:47 AM   #29
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

For sure now is the time to change that gear to a better one. I'm surprised anyone would still be selling this style that so easily fails. Think of this gear as a sheet of OSB where you have a bunch of wood chips pressed into the shape of a 4 x 8 "hunk of wood" vs. a real sheet of plywood made from laminated layers for strength.
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Old 08-08-2015, 09:43 AM   #30
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

I'll call Bert's this morning and see what they have to say........I've looked at many of the provided links...it seems failures are pretty common....

First, are there any quality fiber gears out there, and is it certain that this one is NOT a quality fiber gear? My old gear looks like layers of fabric...and as you say this new one does not. But it looks just like the one in the Bratton's catalog....

Bert's sells the aluminum gears....

As Tom said, now is the time...
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Old 08-08-2015, 10:02 AM   #31
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

OK...Aluminum gear is on it's way.....

And I was going to put the engine together today...

Guess I'll clean the garage....

For what it's worth, Bert's said they get those fiber timing gears from Snyder's....
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:17 PM   #32
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

That second picture sure does look like the macerated gear, or dried cow pie composition. I don't have any personal experience with that type, but have seen the failures of others. I've not had a problem with the laminated gear, but the aluminum gear is a very good choice. In fact I bought one at the last swap meet.
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Old 08-08-2015, 02:01 PM   #33
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

The gear I have and the Bratton gear look to have the same part number....except the Bratton gear has an "L" after the 2718A...L for laminated no doubt..

Here are some better pictures..I took it off...
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Old 08-10-2015, 10:06 PM   #34
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

OK the fiber is out and the alloy is in......
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Old 08-10-2015, 10:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: Timing gear teeth...??

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OK the fiber is out and the alloy is in......
GREAT!! Now get out there and drive.
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Old 08-10-2015, 10:35 PM   #36
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GREAT!! Now get out there and drive.
Might have it together by the weekend.....unless something else comes up!!
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