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Old 02-23-2021, 03:19 PM   #41
Will D
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

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The cover was brazed, do you think it was finished to the correct height?

Would a replacement cover that is not damaged possibly be all that is required?

Mart.

It is quite possible it was not finished to correct clearance. I can't find a picture of a good NOS cover to compare. The 2 best pics I could find, one from the hamb another from ebay. The hamb one says its used but all cleaned up, the ebay one says its NOS but appears to be a used rope seal in it so not sure. Both covers show an indented ring where the cam gear would sit against.

Did these covers come new with same plain on the entire face or did they come with slight indent?

If the indent is supposed to be there then I would assume my cover was brazed and finished at same plain and the gear wore the indent where it should be??



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Old 02-23-2021, 03:32 PM   #42
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Should be flat, Will, same plane as the centre part.
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Last edited by Mart; 02-23-2021 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 02-23-2021, 04:15 PM   #43
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Make sure you change the 4 freeze plugs in the oil pan. They did not look too good. Dont ask me how i know. It is amazing how fast the oil pan will fill up with water
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Old 02-23-2021, 05:19 PM   #44
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

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Should be flat, Will, same plane as the centre part.
Thanks for the pic.

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Make sure you change the 4 freeze plugs in the oil pan. They did not look too good. Dont ask me how i know. It is amazing how fast the oil pan will fill up with water
Will do, one was pretty corroded, the other 3 looked ok but yes all 4 will be replaced. If it wasn't for all the hi temp rtv it probably would have leaked into the pan.
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Old 02-25-2021, 08:04 AM   #45
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Great info for me! I have a ‘39 2dr Standard with a ‘53 Mercury, at least it looks the part and that’s what I was told but I haven’t measured the stroke. I have a very leaky pan and am contemplating pulling the engine to replace the gaskets and dip stick thing a ma bob. And while I’m at it figure out why the oil pressure drops off under hard acceleration. The pan was replaced I was told because it was hitting the frame cross member. Current pan has a rear sump. Could it be I need a different pick for the rear sump?

Thanks,

Jim
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Old 02-28-2021, 09:34 PM   #46
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Valve assemblies and crankshaft oil plugs

I managed to get the valve assemblies cleaned up and everything checked with a micrometer. According to the reconditioning specs in my manual, the valves are all within spec. 3 split guides will need to be replaced as well as 1 spring.








It is interesting to note, all the split guide sets appear to be original FOMCO aside from x2 sets which I believe are reproductions. Of the 3 split guide sets that need to be replaced, 1 set is the repro set which has the worst wear out of all the guides.

Repro on left, FOMOCO on right





I decided to get creative to see if the springs were within spec. My rig looks alittle different than the one in the manual but garnered the results needed. Utilizing a long bolt and two nuts to lock against each other, then a large washer and another nut. The distance from the washer to end of bolt head is 2.125". The double nut and bolt head were ground down to fit within the spring.



With the gauge/bolt mounted in the drill press, the drill stop was set just as the gauge/bolt came into contact with the scale. This allowed the gauge/bolt to sit high enough for a spring to be slid in under it. Then compressed the spring, stopping with the drill stop as 2.125" was achieved. Resulting with the gauge/bolt just above the scale as to not add additional pressure/ weight to the scale.





The oil plugs in the block came out relatively easy. Using a propane torch, heated around the plug to 110F and the brass plug came right out with a hand driver. The steel plug required the heat and a slight rapp from an electric impact driver.

The crankshaft oil plugs proved to be a bit more of a challenge. First attempt was with just a slotted screw driver and a Cresent wrench on the shaft for leverage. Then some penetrant fluid, then some heat, then the impact, then I stopped before I mangled the slot to bad.....I ended up welding a nut to the plug. First 2 came out like butter, last 2 took a few attempts. The last one, I ended up having to weld a washer to the plug, then a nut to the washer in order to get the weld to stick.





Getting there, bit by bit. Now to track down some parts.
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Old 02-28-2021, 09:59 PM   #47
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Looks like lots of progress!
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:20 PM   #48
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

When testing the oil relief valve springs, both in the block and in the pump, it was discovered that the spring in the pump was quite higher tension than spec. Can this happen to the spring steel under certain conditions or did someone install a stronger spring at some point for some reason?

Spec is between 78 oz / 4.875 lbs and 87 oz / 5.42 lbs. The spring was measured at 128 oz / 8 lbs.

The block oil relief spring was a lot closer to spec at 4.5 lbs

Block relief valve spring

Oil pump relief valve spring
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:54 PM   #49
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

...

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Old 02-28-2021, 11:52 PM   #50
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

nice detective work there ! i'm sure you will have a nice flathead as a result
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Old 03-01-2021, 12:21 AM   #51
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

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Valve assemblies and crankshaft oil plugs
I decided to get creative to see if the springs were within spec.

Getting there, bit by bit. Now to track down some parts.

Hey Will .....Ya know, for a young, 32-year-old, snotty-nosed kid, you're pretty damned intuitive and resourceful. It's so cool watching an enthusiastic young guy figuring-out methods on your own...simplistic ways to tame that ancient old beast. You're doing some slick stuff here, Will! Proud to see you here on the 'Barn, likely showing some old farts some new tricks! DD
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Old 03-01-2021, 07:46 AM   #52
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Very good work, there Will. Nice methodical and scientific approach.

Mart.
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Old 03-01-2021, 10:53 AM   #53
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Hey Will .....Ya know, for a young, 32-year-old, snotty-nosed kid, you're pretty damned intuitive and resourceful.
Haha, you crack me up DD!

Can someone educate me on oil pumps. What is the difference between a #50 and #80 pump? Aside from part of model number. Is it the amount of gear teeth or the spring tension?
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:54 PM   #54
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Is there a problem at the oil pump drive end? Imagine an oil pump that is very hard to turn (mega high pressure) or very tight idler gear, that would impart a forward thrust on the cam from that gear at the back end.

Can't really se that being it, but I'm racking my brains to think what could cause the cam to thrust forwards.


Mart.
The oil pump gears/bushings/shaft are in good condition and all spins freely. The pressure relief spring however has been replaced with a high tension spring(8lbs) when it should be between 4.8 - 5.4 lbs. for a 50lb pump. Could this be the added pressure you where thinking of which could cause forward thrust on the camshaft?

I had good oil pressure but the bearings are all well worn. Thinking the spring was replaced to increase pressure. Does that make sense?
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Old 03-02-2021, 12:46 PM   #55
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

I honestly don't know. Bear in mind the spring is a blow off valve if the pressure gets too high. In reality the pressure is determined by the clearances in the bearings It would be unusual for the relief valve to be operational except for a short time after startup.
So I honestly don't know whether the forward thrust generated from the driving of the oil pump is able to overcome the rearward thrust from the timing gears having to drive the valves plus the oil pump load.
I'm thinking too much.
My brain hurts.
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Old 03-02-2021, 01:46 PM   #56
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

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I honestly don't know. Bear in mind the spring is a blow off valve if the pressure gets too high. In reality the pressure is determined by the clearances in the bearings It would be unusual for the relief valve to be operational except for a short time after startup.
So I honestly don't know whether the forward thrust generated from the driving of the oil pump is able to overcome the rearward thrust from the timing gears having to drive the valves plus the oil pump load.
I'm thinking too much.
My brain hurts.
Mart.

Thanks Mart, no doubt your head hurts, I forget about the time difference sometimes. Your burning the candle at both ends

From what I'm finding online and given the way ford designed the cover, it is meant to be a thrust surface with the 2 oil grooves to lubricate it. This wear may not have bin as much with a fibre timing gear but the aluminum replacements can grind a little more. Most used covers I've found have a groove worn in it from the timing gear.

With the aftermarket aluminum timing gear, it would be neat if a guy could modify the cover with a torrington bearing. You can find them with high enough rpm ranges but not sure the amount of noise that would generate.

Some might say it worked fine for ford for years, why change it but we changed the material for the gear so maybe the cover should change along with it?
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Old 03-02-2021, 02:27 PM   #57
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

The french engine uses a hardened round tip on a screw right in the center of the cover in front of the cam. Thus no contact from timing gear to cover and adjustable as well as the hardened balltip rests on the cam center.

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Old 06-17-2021, 12:29 AM   #58
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Default Re: Engine removal '38 deluxe

Slowly but surely....

The block has been sitting at the machine shop for the past 3 and a half months waiting in line. Stopped in and the fella said to keep on him and he'd get on it so, after stopping in every day for the last week, it's happening! It's been hot tanked, magnafluxed and pressure tested and all is good. Now it's up for a sleeve in the damaged cylinder, clean up bore on the other cylinders and valve seat clean up/cut.

I managed to source locally, a good condition used timing cover and a matching set of used 8ba rods at more than a fair price. Ended up meeting a guy who only lives a hop, skip and a jump from me with a nice little collection of flathead goodies and a wealth of knowledge. I couldn't be happier.

Hopefully I'll be on to re assembly shortly.
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