New Snyders head

[walls]

There are some small inconsistencies in the combustion chamber.

Should I smooth these out before installing? Is it worth worrying about?

[denniskliesen]

I would contact them and voice your concerns. Ask them what they would do if it were them making the purchase.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Agree...Ernie in Arizona

[Tod]

That is just the texture of the metal as it is cast against the sand. Perfectly normal.


Tod

[41plym]

It looks pretty nice to me....

[modelAsteve]

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I would knock the bumps down a little to eliminate hot spots- just run!

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

I would have it checked for straightness, as not only my one, but several others I’m aware of weren’t flat. Several lost gaskets.

[Fordfan29]

I use a 5.9 Snyder's head and smoothed the combustion chambers with an air grinder to eliminate the potential hot spots as in an earlier post.

I also set the head on my bare block with out a head gasket and it rocked back & forth! It was warped several thousandths & had to be milled. Snyder's offered to ship another head but the first on took three weeks to arrive. After talking to them I had the head milled & sent them the bill and was reimbursed.

I had heard many suppliers machine green castings and they will move around after machining is initially done.

[old31]

I bought a 6.0 head from Snyders and the shop told me it was far from straight. The areas where the nuts go had to be ground and the water inlet had to be repaired.

But, 3,000 miles later it makes a heck of an improvement in performance.

[MikeK]

I ran two foundries for 30 years. The as-cast appearance in the combustion chambers is absolutely normal. I see no inclusions (sand, slag, etc.), no penetration/scabbing, no rat-tails, shrinkage, cold shuts, core shift, or visible porosity.

The head in the photo is absolutely normal. Should you wish a greater degree of finish within the combustion chambers take it to a shop experienced with polishing and CC'ing heads.

To sell a head with either hand finished chambers or fully CNC'd would add at least $100 to the end price.

Now, if you look at a collection of original Ford heads, bead blasted in the chambers to remove the carbon and reveal the original as-cast appearance, you WILL FIND a myriad of defects.

[Wick]

I buy my 6.0 heads from Schwalm at Hershey. The head has already been inspected and surfaced.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by 2831A’s

Can you please explain why these heads are all warped out of the box!!

Yes. All metal and alloy parts contain internal stress when they are initially formed from a hot state. Over time that stress causes the part to change dimensionally as it ages. The majority of the dimensional change in gray iron castings occurs within 30 days of shakeout. Parts are generally held that long before machining if dimensional accuracy is critical.

Castings can also be artificially aged by intentionally subjecting them to heat/cool cycles. This is usually done on parts that have finish tolerances down it the tenths range.

Flat machined surfaces can also end up 'warped' if the clamping used during the machining operations stresses the part.

Even storage conditions of finished parts can affect dimensional stability. Lack of proper support imposes stress that will impart directional bias to the movement of the grain structure as the part ages.

Now, as to what is the specific problem with this run, you would have to talk to the foundry and machine supplier of the part.

[CarlG]

IMHO, all the surfaces in the combustion chamber should be like a "mirror finish". This keeps carbon deposits from forming and all the other problems that propagate from that, as well as permitting a better air flow in and out.

[24ruxstel1339]

As long as it's flat, I would run it.
Those casting imperfections are not a big deal...just my $0.02.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree with Mike. Those combustion chambers look fine, and there is no reason to send it back or complain about the head. I knew a guy who polished his heads and piston tops to a mirror finish on an Olds V8. When he honed the cylinders to install new rings, he didn't get the honing grit cleaned out very well, so he had worn rings in one week. He took the engine apart, and the heads and piston tops had the same coating of carbon, just as they would if he never polished them. Also, polished isn't always the best for flow.


I bought a Snyder's 5.5 head years ago, and it's still in the box. Just for kicks I'll have to check it for flatness, and see how the combustion chambers look.

[ronn]

That head looks pretty darn good!


Think about what you are paying-pretty darn cheap!

[SAJ]

These chambers look good to me. Just the texture of casting sand showing. I have fitted a dozen Snyder's heads and none showed an asperity from sand pockets, but if one did, for the price we pay, I would just take a sharp chisel and remove the lump.
It would be easy to increase the cost of heads a lot for little gain in quality.
Regarding flatness, I have seen 3.5 thou concavity in the centre in one and about 3 thou end-to-end rock in another one.
I glued 30 grit paper in one case and 80 grit in another to a surface plate and used sets of 10 leisurely strokes, using just the weight of the head to flatten it. After 20 sets or 200 diagonal strokes which is quick and effortless a 1.5 thou feeler would not pass under.
I have large and small milling machines but it would take far longer to set up on these than sanding by hand.
The same goes for manifolds where I have bolted them together and removed 15 thou, since the cast iron is very soft.
It comes off so fast a dust mask and dustpan and brush is neccessary to cope with a large volume of cast iron dust. And I still ended up with a nose full of black dust.
Any flat surface about 15 by 24 inches will do for a surface plate. The bed of a table saw might be good, after checking with a straight edge. Plate glass is also very flat if thick enough, like an old mirror or broken plate glass window.
I have both granite and cast iron tables so I am spoiled. You can find small granite or cast tables at machinery auctions quite cheaply and they quickly pay off if you are into engineering as a hobby in any way, since fitting, marking out and, with vee blocks, dial test indicator and machinists square, testing crankshafts, conrods etc for stroke, bend twist etc becomes quite easy.
SAJ in Cornwall

[chap52]

What SAJ said...
If you want to "touch up" and assure a flatter head surface here is an old school way to do it yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK2R2LdkLKs&t=14s

Just my 2 cents worth, Chap

[Bob Bidonde]

Old school works for me too. I use a large flat cross-cut file across a Model A cylinder head and cylinder block deck to remove high spots.



I am of the opinion that a Model A & B cylinder heads deflect when torqued over a compressible gasket, so a few thousandths run-out in flatness of the head / deck is acceptable.

[MikeK]

Most guys will tell you a head or block deck can be checked for flatness with a machinist's straight edge or parallel. Unfortunately, this is WRONG!

This distorted plane will measure perfectly "flat" with a machinist's straightedge along any point perpendicular to any edge AND across opposite corners!! It is extremely deceiving and can only be detected with a surface plate or more advanced electronic measuring that 'feels' or scans the entire surface.

Unfortunately it is also possible to produce this error while machining a block or head to correct an out-of -flat condition! It is very easy to instill a torque on a part when clamped for machining. The result is a distorted planar surface like the one above that may NOT be detectable with just a straightedge! You send a head out to be machined, it checks out with a straightedge, but it is like the above illustration!

It is entirely possible that both the block and a well-used head have distorted into MATCHING profiles over time. A surface plate may reveal head spots several thousandths from flat, but the deck may very well be a perfect geometric match.

Making matters even worse, many guys pull heads that have run for a while and have them planed without checking the block. There seems to be a general belief that heads distort, but not block decks. What was a perfect match of two non-planar surfaces is lost. Then the head gasket gets blamed for short life. Pulling the head reveals it's attempt to assume the block distortion, then the head manufacturer gets blamed for a part that does not hold true.

Truing the block before installing a newly planed head, even in-place by hand, requires pulling the studs. Many guys never want to go that far.

FWIW, most new head gaskets will accommodate slight distortions, up to 3 or 4 thousanths. This accommodation ability is lost if a head gasket is re-used. Once compressed they never recover to their pre-crush condition.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

I would have it checked for straightness, as not only my one, but several others I’m aware of weren’t flat. Several lost gaskets.

I read that Steve of Bert's in Denver has installed 260 of them and only found 2 not flat?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I read that Steve of Bert's in Denver has installed 260 of them and only found 2 not flat?

I've made upwards of 10,000 of these and there seems to be one or two chronic complainers. Some complaints we hear are so absurd you wouldn't believe it.


Tod

[divcoone]

My only comment is the rebuilder I used didn’t chase the spark plug threads. I have zero gasket problems.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by Tod

I've made upwards of 10,000 of these and there seems to be one or two chronic complainers. Some complaints we hear are so absurd you wouldn't believe it.


Tod

Well, I know of at least three people with warped heads. Mine was .008”, right out of the box.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

Well, I know of at least three people with warped heads. Mine was .008”, right out of the box.

What caused the warp? And what inspection equipment did you use to determine that figure?


Tod

[Dodge]

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Mine was also warped .011 out of the box. Checked it with a straight edge, then put it on
the surfacer you could see it as it cut it had a twist in it. That was the new 6.0 head. Went back to the 5.5 after that one on the next motor and it was flat as a pancake right out of the box.

Who knows. Maybe the casting was green or something. What do you think Tod?
I know others that had no problems.

They sure pep up the motor.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Most guys will tell you a head or block deck can be checked for flatness with a machinist's straight edge or parallel. Unfortunately, this is WRONG!

This distorted plane will measure perfectly "flat" with a machinist's straightedge along any point perpendicular to any edge AND across opposite corners!! It is extremely deceiving and can only be detected with a surface plate or more advanced electronic measuring that 'feels' or scans the entire surface.

Unfortunately it is also possible to produce this error while machining a block or head to correct an out-of -flat condition! It is very easy to instill a torque on a part when clamped for machining. The result is a distorted planar surface like the one above that may NOT be detectable with just a straightedge! You send a head out to be machined, it checks out with a straightedge, but it is like the above illustration!

It is entirely possible that both the block and a well-used head have distorted into MATCHING profiles over time. A surface plate may reveal head spots several thousandths from flat, but the deck may very well be a perfect geometric match.

Making matters even worse, many guys pull heads that have run for a while and have them planed without checking the block. There seems to be a general belief that heads distort, but not block decks. What was a perfect match of two non-planar surfaces is lost. Then the head gasket gets blamed for short life. Pulling the head reveals it's attempt to assume the block distortion, then the head manufacturer gets blamed for a part that does not hold true.

Truing the block before installing a newly planed head, even in-place by hand, requires pulling the studs. Many guys never want to go that far.

FWIW, most new head gaskets will accommodate slight distortions, up to 3 or 4 thousanths. This accommodation ability is lost if a head gasket is re-used. Once compressed they never recover to their pre-crush condition.

I agree with this except about running the straight edge across diagonal corners. Wouldn't a head with a twist now make the center show low on one diagonal, and make the straight edge rock on the high center in the other diagonal?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Dodge

Mine was also warped .011 out of the box. Checked it with a straight edge, then put it on
the surfacer you could see it as it cut it had a twist in it. That was the new 6.0 head. Went back to the 5.5 after that one on the next motor and it was flat as a pancake right out of the box.

Who knows. Maybe the casting was green or something. What do you think Tod?
I know others that had no problems.

They sure pep up the motor.

I have no explanation without experimenting, which there is no time to do. I check heads all the time and cannot find even .0015 variation. Once they leave the shop who knows what can happen? If they are not stored flat, or on their sides before shipping, they may move. The alloy is fairly soft, as I have stated before. I have never found one that I can slip a .0015 feeler gauge under using a granite inspection plate and/or a precision ground machine level that is 2" wide. Those two combined give me two means that I know are flat and cannot lie. I can also set them up and use an inspection indicator with .001 incremental divisions.


Green castings MAY be the issue, but the demand for heads is so high that aging is probably out of the question. Normalizing may be but that is not my call. I run 5 heads a day. I will be running out of 5.5's soon and we will not be getting castings until November. I will be playing catch up yet again.


The amount of negative feed back we see if so far below 1% I doubt it is worth messing with. The foundry has about a 20% scrap rate and they don't change a thing. I know of a production machine shop that has at least a 10% scrap rate and they don't care. Problems stemming from my end are almost non-existent, so the only reason you will see me chime in is to deal with what may effect my business. Snyder can deal with anyone he thinks is harming him.


If people want to get into this further, email me.


Tod

[40 Deluxe]

Thanks, Tod, for the voice of reason!

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Just a few thoughts and ramblings from a non - expert. I am sure the Barn will correct me where needed


My opinion is we are dealing with designs, materials, methods from the 20s and 30s. Can't expect anything close to perfection. Even in today's world we have warranties on new because things happen.


How much of this is due to the age of the design - materials, design tools, etc.?


In the day, I wonder what Fords scrap rate was, probably a lot higher?


I wonder what the rework rate was, a lot higher?


Is inspecting/grinding heads a science, or more of an art? I do not know, seems to be a lot of discussion on what is proper once you deviate methods for the customer/mechanic. Sounds like Berts has the proper equipment.


How many vehicles had Warranty issues with blown gaskets, warped heads?


If the issue is with the castings, or with material - with the volumes being so low, foundry might not care, and Bert's is too small to sink money into research.


Berts can not control environmental stressors once it leaves Berts - Temp fluctuations, Humidity, stresses in shipping, and what happens at the customer. So heads may ship OK, and have issues at install. This is my opinion.


Are new Heads seasoned, do not know, have been told it is better to use good original parts because they have been seasoned and are more stable.


A part as large and heavy as the A head seems to be a stable metal part, and the assumption is it will never change form - not true, temp change and other factors causes it to change.


In the day the part was designed without computer tools, no ability to look where metal and temp stresses are in the head and design for them. If designed today the head metal/material would probably different/modified, and shaped differently to deal with stresses.


In Berts defense, I myself have been guilty of blaming a supplier or product for something and been wrong. After cooling down and working through things with the supplier find that it is me either doing something incorrectly, not ordering the best quality part (guilty of trying to save dollars, ends up costing me a lot more), or not understanding something. If a supplier is willing to work with you they are usually reputable, and want to see happy customers, if not they will not be in business long.


Of course stuff made in China, South America, etc., bought on the internet, not from a reputable supplier is a different subject.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Originally Posted by Tod

What caused the warp? And what inspection equipment did you use to determine that figure?


Tod

I used a never installed one inch shaft., I don’t know what the machine shop used that milled it. The .008” was the figure they gave me.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Did I confuse Berts with Snyders. If so I apologize. Looks like Tod is Snyders

[CarlG]

Tod machines the heads for Snyder’s. Snyder’s supplies all the other suppliers with their heads. So in reality, no matter who you bought your head from, Tod touched it.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

I used a never installed one inch shaft., I don’t know what the machine shop used that milled it. The .008” was the figure they gave me.

What is a "never installed one inch shaft?" Find out what the shop used and let me know.



Tod