The Ford Barn

Paul Bennett · 10-29-2018, 05:08 PM

A flathead engine swap may require the transmission pan to be removed. Or does it? The nice rug has way too much glue holding it in place to save.

Has any one faced this situation? Can the rug be saved? Does the seat back need to come out? Mine is resisting removal. Is the back edge of the floor pan (over the transmission) midway under the seat? Or?

ford38v8 · 10-29-2018, 05:14 PM

If you were able to remove it in one piece, it'd likely be stretched and lumpy from gobs of glue. What's your time worth against coughing up for a new carpet?

JSeery · 10-29-2018, 05:30 PM

I have never tried it, but one of the viberator saws with the attachments used to remove tile might work.

TJ · 10-29-2018, 06:16 PM

If the carpet is old, tear it out and get a new one. I think Auto Custom Carpets are sold by Summit racing and I believe you can get a new molded carpet from them for your Merc. I recall that those carpets were not glued down from the factory. You might try a paint scraper to try to lift it out if you think you can save it, but it's tricky.

my4dv8 · 10-29-2018, 06:42 PM

Sorry I had visions of a barner in his convertible trying to stop his rug blowing off in the wind<<<

Jack E/NJ · 10-29-2018, 08:17 PM

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Take the seats out. Use a razor knife to slice the rug around all the lags by feeling them. Peel the rug back a bit to get a socket on the lags. Lift the floor pan out along with the glued on rug. Put it back after you're done. You won't even notice the slices. Jack E/NJ

Tinker · 10-29-2018, 10:38 PM

Also Try a little heat with a map torch maybe. If its set it might be tough. Patience and a razor.

TJ · 10-30-2018, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinker

Also Try a little heat with a map torch maybe. If its set it might be tough. Patience and a razor.

Bad idea to use a torch if the carpet is a synthetic material. Way too easy to start a fire and that material burns fast.

54vicky · 10-30-2018, 08:35 AM

I agree with TJ terrible idea with open flame better to use a hair dryer.

tubman · 10-30-2018, 09:27 AM

I tried the old lady's hair dryer for a couple of things, activating heat-shrink tubing, softening adhesives, removing paint; didn't work at all. Then I bought a real purpose built heat-gun. What a difference.

corvette8n · 10-30-2018, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubman

I tried the old lady's hair dryer for a couple of things, activating heat-shrink tubing, softening adhesives, removing paint; didn't work at all. Then I bought a real purpose built heat-gun. What a difference.

+1 on the real heat gun, I got a HF one, you still have to be careful with the high heat setting, but I use mine all the time.

rotorwrench · 10-30-2018, 02:22 PM

If you're just doing a swap, you can use jacks or blocks to support the transmission. The last time I just pulled the engine, that's how I did it. Now if you have the Merc-O-Matic it might be harder to get to the bell housing bolts. That big torque converter may be able to come with it but it will gush oil. A person should be able to disconnect from the flex plate to leave it with the trans though.

Pulling the floor tunnel cover is a bear the first time. They used the tar stuff to seal it and it gets hard as a rock. Heat will soften it but it can be a giant PITA. Your somewhat limited on what you can do there but it may make it easier to get to bell housing bolts. FoMoCo designed it to have the transmission pulled from the top. They had a special fixture to hold the back of the engine up while the trans is removed but the fixture is a one way deal. There are photos in the overhaul manual of that set up as well as the tool for hoisting the trans up into the cab. Not much info on the Merc-O-Matic in there though. Mine has clevis pins that hold the seat. Take the pins out and scoot the seat back for better access. I'm not sure about a 49. It may be different.

JSeery · 10-30-2018, 03:53 PM

Not sure how difficult the bellhousing bolts are to get at, but I have used some really long extensions (talking in the 3ft range or more) and swivel head sockets. Normally try to work with 3/8 extensions and sockets, but sometime it takes a little more muscle than 3/8 will handle.

Paul Bennett · 10-30-2018, 04:36 PM

The car museum I got the car from bought the car with fresh upholstery and the insides look pristine, partially due to the rug. Plus, new rugs aren't available in dark green. Unfortunately the engine has a dead hole requiring a swap.

I've never pulled an engine and the bell housing bolts look inaccessible to me. But I was hoping several would tell me it can be done and the rug can stay put. So far, I've arranged the engine swap with a hot rod shop and he wants to raise the transmission cover.

Tell me this ... can the engine be pulled forward ... radiator out ... enough to gain access to the transmission bolts from underneath?

51 MERC-CT · 10-30-2018, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Bennett

Plus, new rugs aren't available in dark green.

Any upholstery shop that does cars can make a rug to fit in any color or material that is available.
Your '50 rug is the same as mine and the rug can be tucked under the sill plates to hold in place.
Removing the radiator support cross bar should allow the engine and transmission to be removed as one unit without removing the floor pan.

Jack E/NJ · 10-30-2018, 08:10 PM

I too am very careful about not using the words "should" and "would" interchangeably. 8^) Jack E/NJ

Tinker · 10-30-2018, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJ

Bad idea to use a torch if the carpet is a synthetic material. Way too easy to start a fire and that material burns fast.

your right, I was thinking a little heat could help. Open flame probably not a good idea. By bad.

19Fordy · 10-30-2018, 10:29 PM

Removing the transmission cover must be done to remove and reinstall the engine easily. Seat does not have to come out. You don't have to pull the radiator but be sure to remove the generator and fan bracket pulley with fan for max clearance. Also remove the carb and fuel pump so you don't damage them with the hoist chain. Be sure to use an engine levelor to make it easy.

rotorwrench · 10-31-2018, 05:55 PM

I used long extensions with wobble sockets to get all but the ones on top. I had to use a combination wrench on those but they will come out. Make a note of where wire clamps are attached. My cars are the overdrive type. I even left the drive shaft & equalizer connected on the clutch. If you have to move the motor/trans forward, the rear mount would have to be undone along with the fronts. The equalizer would need to be disconnected. The 49 has different front mounts but I've seen some that were converted to be like the 50 & 51. There was a time when those front mounts were hard to get. The 49 also has a different brace over the radiator than the 50 & 51 but all of them are removable. Removing the radiator gives a lot of room too but it takes a bit of work and the cross over wires may have to be dealt with. There is a trick to getting bullet pins out of sockets when they've been in there for a long time. I'd leave them to dangle if I went that far.

Paul Bennett · 11-01-2018, 02:29 AM

Your posts have been quite helpful to preplan the engine swap here for March. It would seem the transmission cover may or may not need to be removed. I feel better now about the alternatives and ideas about removing the rug should it be necessary.

My radiator will be removed this winter to be rodded plus a puller fan w/shroud will be added soas to never overheat.

With engine out, conversion to Wilwood dual brake master cylinder becomes easier.

With engine out, changing the heater fan motor to 12v becomes easier.

My plans have gone from having AAA towing car free. Next quoted $2500 as I learn AAA won't tow a non-running car. Next figured I would tow the car myself for $1000 (gas+motel) with rebuilder's buddy doing the engine swap for $2000. Currently plan to have the engine shipped for $300 and doing the swap myself. I've been whip-sawed but starting to feel good about the job. Again thanks for the helpful posts.

10-29-2018, 05:14 PM	#2
ford38v8 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 6,634	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up If you were able to remove it in one piece, it'd likely be stretched and lumpy from gobs of glue. What's your time worth against coughing up for a new carpet? __________________ Alan

10-29-2018, 05:30 PM	#3
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up I have never tried it, but one of the viberator saws with the attachments used to remove tile might work.

10-29-2018, 06:16 PM	#4
TJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Napa,California Posts: 6,029	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up If the carpet is old, tear it out and get a new one. I think Auto Custom Carpets are sold by Summit racing and I believe you can get a new molded carpet from them for your Merc. I recall that those carpets were not glued down from the factory. You might try a paint scraper to try to lift it out if you think you can save it, but it's tricky.

10-29-2018, 06:42 PM	#5
my4dv8 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,111	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up Sorry I had visions of a barner in his convertible trying to stop his rug blowing off in the wind<<<

10-29-2018, 08:17 PM	#6
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Take the seats out. Use a razor knife to slice the rug around all the lags by feeling them. Peel the rug back a bit to get a socket on the lags. Lift the floor pan out along with the glued on rug. Put it back after you're done. You won't even notice the slices. Jack E/NJ

10-29-2018, 10:38 PM	#7
Tinker Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: MN Posts: 7,053	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up Also Try a little heat with a map torch maybe. If its set it might be tough. Patience and a razor.

10-30-2018, 08:35 AM	#9
54vicky Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Oakville Ontario Posts: 586	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up I agree with TJ terrible idea with open flame better to use a hair dryer.

10-30-2018, 09:27 AM	#10
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,303	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up I tried the old lady's hair dryer for a couple of things, activating heat-shrink tubing, softening adhesives, removing paint; didn't work at all. Then I bought a real purpose built heat-gun. What a difference.

10-30-2018, 02:22 PM	#12
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up If you're just doing a swap, you can use jacks or blocks to support the transmission. The last time I just pulled the engine, that's how I did it. Now if you have the Merc-O-Matic it might be harder to get to the bell housing bolts. That big torque converter may be able to come with it but it will gush oil. A person should be able to disconnect from the flex plate to leave it with the trans though. Pulling the floor tunnel cover is a bear the first time. They used the tar stuff to seal it and it gets hard as a rock. Heat will soften it but it can be a giant PITA. Your somewhat limited on what you can do there but it may make it easier to get to bell housing bolts. FoMoCo designed it to have the transmission pulled from the top. They had a special fixture to hold the back of the engine up while the trans is removed but the fixture is a one way deal. There are photos in the overhaul manual of that set up as well as the tool for hoisting the trans up into the cab. Not much info on the Merc-O-Matic in there though. Mine has clevis pins that hold the seat. Take the pins out and scoot the seat back for better access. I'm not sure about a 49. It may be different. Last edited by rotorwrench; 10-30-2018 at 02:35 PM.

10-30-2018, 03:53 PM	#13
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up Not sure how difficult the bellhousing bolts are to get at, but I have used some really long extensions (talking in the 3ft range or more) and swivel head sockets. Normally try to work with 3/8 extensions and sockets, but sometime it takes a little more muscle than 3/8 will handle.

10-30-2018, 04:36 PM	#14
Paul Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 628	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up The car museum I got the car from bought the car with fresh upholstery and the insides look pristine, partially due to the rug. Plus, new rugs aren't available in dark green. Unfortunately the engine has a dead hole requiring a swap. I've never pulled an engine and the bell housing bolts look inaccessible to me. But I was hoping several would tell me it can be done and the rug can stay put. So far, I've arranged the engine swap with a hot rod shop and he wants to raise the transmission cover. Tell me this ... can the engine be pulled forward ... radiator out ... enough to gain access to the transmission bolts from underneath?

10-30-2018, 08:10 PM	#16
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up I too am very careful about not using the words "should" and "would" interchangeably. 8^) Jack E/NJ

10-30-2018, 10:29 PM	#18
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,921	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up Removing the transmission cover must be done to remove and reinstall the engine easily. Seat does not have to come out. You don't have to pull the radiator but be sure to remove the generator and fan bracket pulley with fan for max clearance. Also remove the carb and fuel pump so you don't damage them with the hoist chain. Be sure to use an engine levelor to make it easy.

10-31-2018, 05:55 PM	#19
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up I used long extensions with wobble sockets to get all but the ones on top. I had to use a combination wrench on those but they will come out. Make a note of where wire clamps are attached. My cars are the overdrive type. I even left the drive shaft & equalizer connected on the clutch. If you have to move the motor/trans forward, the rear mount would have to be undone along with the fronts. The equalizer would need to be disconnected. The 49 has different front mounts but I've seen some that were converted to be like the 50 & 51. There was a time when those front mounts were hard to get. The 49 also has a different brace over the radiator than the 50 & 51 but all of them are removable. Removing the radiator gives a lot of room too but it takes a bit of work and the cross over wires may have to be dealt with. There is a trick to getting bullet pins out of sockets when they've been in there for a long time. I'd leave them to dangle if I went that far.

11-01-2018, 02:29 AM	#20
Paul Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 628	Re: My Rug is Glued Down 50Merc - and needs to come up Your posts have been quite helpful to preplan the engine swap here for March. It would seem the transmission cover may or may not need to be removed. I feel better now about the alternatives and ideas about removing the rug should it be necessary. My radiator will be removed this winter to be rodded plus a puller fan w/shroud will be added soas to never overheat. With engine out, conversion to Wilwood dual brake master cylinder becomes easier. With engine out, changing the heater fan motor to 12v becomes easier. My plans have gone from having AAA towing car free. Next quoted $2500 as I learn AAA won't tow a non-running car. Next figured I would tow the car myself for $1000 (gas+motel) with rebuilder's buddy doing the engine swap for $2000. Currently plan to have the engine shipped for $300 and doing the swap myself. I've been whip-sawed but starting to feel good about the job. Again thanks for the helpful posts.