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Old 11-28-2021, 01:11 AM   #1
fredeuce
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Default Fitting Sump

I am at the stage where I am preparing to install the sump.

I know the seals front and back need to be trimmed . However the sump gasket appears to abut the crankshaft .

Does this mean that the gasket in effect sits between the two halves of the front and rear seals?

I haven't sat the sump on to compress the seals yet.

Before I do that I would like to know the correct procedure.

Attached are some pictures to show where I'm at.
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Old 11-28-2021, 01:23 AM   #2
deuce_roadster
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

Most people I know don't use the white rope pieces. There are other options such as a 1 piece seal which usually involves modifying the front pulley. There are professional engine builders on this site that can give you the lowdown on getting the best chance for no leaks. There are new composite seals that can be used that give you a much better chance of a good outcome. The last one I did with composite pieces I think came from the Best gasket company. I'm sure someone that has done one more recent than me will chime in. Don't be in a hurry here.
Good luck.
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Old 11-28-2021, 09:02 AM   #3
cadillac512
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredeuce View Post
I am at the stage where I am preparing to install the sump.

I know the seals front and back need to be trimmed . However the sump gasket appears to abut the crankshaft .

Does this mean that the gasket in effect sits between the two halves of the front and rear seals?

I haven't sat the sump on to compress the seals yet.

Before I do that I would like to know the correct procedure.

Attached are some pictures to show where I'm at.





I installed the seals with the gasket sandwiched between the halves and abutting the crankshaft as you have pictured. I trimmed the seals flush after rolling them into their grooves tightly using a socket that approximated the journal OD. This is a procedure I'd not seen in any more modern engine (even those using "rope" seals) but it was the only way the parts would properly fit. I have 12000 miles on the engine now and front and rear are sealed nicely with no issue.


Terry
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Old 11-28-2021, 09:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

The only thing I would add is a daub of sealer in those corners where the gaskets meet.
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Old 11-28-2021, 01:31 PM   #5
Bored&Stroked
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

I use the gasket sets from Best Gasket - as I like their graphite impregnated rear main seals. One thing that you may consider is to install the rear main cap/seal and then use gasket sealer (high-temp RTV is the best) to glue the cork gaskets to the block. I clean the gasket surfaces with acetone or lacquer thinner (to get all oil off of them).

Also, depending on the year and rear main style (with 32-48 being totally different than 49-53), the cork gaskets may be a bit LONG in the areas where they interact with the rear main cap or the front timing cover. If you need to trim them a bit with an Xacto knive or razor blade, no problem.

As noted by marko39, I always put a dab on RTV sealer on the ends of the rope or graphite seals and also in the "corners" where the oil pan meats the pan rail surfaces (next to the crankshaft - front and rear).

I've been using the aftermarket one-piece front timing cover "doughnut" seals - they seem to work better than the rope seals, though you need to install a thin steel sleeve on the crank pulley seal area for a smooth surface. (you don't want the spiral groove working on the seal surfaces).
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Old 11-28-2021, 01:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredeuce View Post
I am at the stage where I am preparing to install the sump.

I know the seals front and back need to be trimmed . However the sump gasket appears to abut the crankshaft .

Does this mean that the gasket in effect sits between the two halves of the front and rear seals?

I haven't sat the sump on to compress the seals yet.

Before I do that I would like to know the correct procedure.

Attached are some pictures to show where I'm at.
To answer the question you asked here's what I do which works perfectly. First I DO NOT shorten the rope seals provided in the gasket set. Next I DO NOT place the cork pan gasket between the rope seals.

First what I do is carefully trim each end of the pan gasket so it fits around the outer edges of the rope seal.

Next to improve sealing I place a small amount of gray or black silicone sealer around the outer surfaces of the crankshaft seal I do this on both the block surface and timing cover and also the oil pan surface area. I go about 1/2 inch out from the sealing area in each location. The sealer holds the gasket in place nicely as you tighten the pan down

I have found this method works perfectly on every engine I build. Those builds number in the 100"s

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Old 11-28-2021, 02:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

I agree with Ronnieroadster as I use NOS Ford script asbestos front seals with graphite cores on all of my '32-'37 engines and I pretty sure that they are not supposed to be trimmed, but rather soaked in oil for at least 24 hours before inserting into the oil pan and timing gear cover. (I also use the big socket for their insertion.) But, I do overlap the pan gaskets between the seal ends. Untrimmed seals compress completely and provide a leak-less seal, at least in my experience with multiple fours and V8s. Nor do I trim the cork seal at the rear main bearing cap, in fact sometimes I have to add to it along with sealer as most shrink with age.
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Old 11-28-2021, 05:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

Ronnie ,
You are saying you trim the gasket to fit around the rear main seal,,,,,like a half moon pie cut shape ?

And,,,,you leave the rope seal long,,,,to help compress and make a better seal ?
How long,,,,whatever it comes as ?
I’m not there yet,,,it will still be a while before I need this in use .
I’ve always used sealer to help join things,,,,but this is my first rope seal .
I’m going with a 1 piece front seal,,,,.but my rear will be the normal rope type .
What’s the best rope seal ?

Tommy
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Old 11-28-2021, 05:52 PM   #9
Ronnieroadster
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desoto291Hemi View Post
Ronnie ,
You are saying you trim the gasket to fit around the rear main seal,,,,,like a half moon pie cut shape ?

And,,,,you leave the rope seal long,,,,to help compress and make a better seal ?
How long,,,,whatever it comes as ?
I’m not there yet,,,it will still be a while before I need this in use .
I’ve always used sealer to help join things,,,,but this is my first rope seal .
I’m going with a 1 piece front seal,,,,.but my rear will be the normal rope type .
What’s the best rope seal ?

Tommy
Yes Tommy if the gasket set has the original rope style seal leave the seal the length it is there's no need to modify it at all. When the two half's are compressed they will seal correctly. Also there's no need to put any sealer between the ends of the seals. Some current gasket sets still have the original design rope seal as well as older gasket sets.

The Best brand gasket sets usually come with the graphite style rear seals they work extremely well. The graphite seals come long so they must be trimmed once installed. When the graphite seal is long the gasket set includes a height gauge that is easy to use and includes a razor knife to trim the seal to the correct height.

The actual difference between the two styles of rear seals has to do with the drag produced between the two types. The graphite seal will have less drag when installed and in effect a bit less heat from the frication caused by drag. For a stock build and a mildly modified engine this difference is not important.
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First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH

Last edited by Ronnieroadster; 11-28-2021 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 11-28-2021, 06:01 PM   #10
Desoto291Hemi
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

Okay,,,the graphite seal was what I wanted to use,,,,I have been reading that it is a better seal .
But,,,,the graphite seal does need to be trimmed to the correct length .
And use no sealer between the seal halves ,,,correct .
My main concern is I want a good leak free seal,,,,well,,,,as leak free as possible,,,LoL.

Tommy
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Old 11-28-2021, 06:30 PM   #11
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Default Re: Fitting Sump

Also, on the Best Gasket graphite rear main seals, they come with a small roll-pin and instructions to drill the pot-metal seal housings to install the pin (with about 1/2 of it sticking out). The purpose of the roll-pin is to prevent the graphite seal halves from rotating/moving. Some people neglect to drill/install the roll-pin . . . this is an important step and it should be done.
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