Concourse judged car imponderable question

[nospartsman]

My question involves early V8 Concourse judged cars (mainly 1937-41) shown with extremely pitted exhaust manifolds. I have attended V8 meets for over 35 years and it seems 25 to 50% of the cars being judged on the Concourse have badly pitted exhaust manifolds. I'm talking like craters of the moon. My question is why??? Even now at 2015 1937-41 NOS exhaust manifolds are relatively plentiful and reasonably priced ($150 pr range). No motive here, I don't have any for sale. You just spent $30,000 to $100,000+ restoring your car but buying some non pitted manifolds is a bridge too far. Used manifolds from western parts cars can be just as smooth as NOS, and cheaper. Can someone explain??? Has anyone else noticed this? Otherwise stunning restorations.

[ford38v8]

That's an excellent question. I can only speak for myself, but will be glad to offer my experience on the subject. Being a judge myself with more than a few meets under my belt, I've seen the pitted manifolds as you describe, but have been reluctant to dock points for any but for two cars in my experience. Those two were so bad, they really stuck out, just begging for deductions.

Manifolds came from the factory unpainted, quickly developing surface rust. For the most part, only cars prepped for the showroom floor were sprayed at the dealerships to hide that surface rust, which burned off soon after it sold. With that information well known among judges, I doubt that many scrutinize manifolds for excessive pitting. In my opinion, a manifold looks more natural when mildly rusted than when painted, so for that reason, I prefer leniency rather than to push for painted.

If NOS or mildly rusted manifolds are indeed plentiful as you say, that's great news for those restorers in need, but then also, cast iron with surface rust does appear pitted to the untrained eye, so maybe that's the more valid answer than my long winded reply!

[deuce_roadster]

When judging, I take off points for PITTED parts (as opposed to very lightly rusted). The standard the car is being judged against is how it left the factory. I'm pretty sure they rolled off the assembly line without pitted parts. NOSpartsman is correct in that it is odd that relatively easy parts to find were not used on a vehicle that was assembled to be judged.

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone, nospartsman, I too have noticed these types of condition issues, also on rears and springs (originally painted parts). It always gets at minimum a remark from me. Frequently there are discussions between myself and the Deputy Judge on the team and his opinion is weighed.

It's really hard to ding a guy when he's taken what he had and made it as nice as could be expected, but it's still showing its age simply because he started with a 75 year old piece.

The other side of the coin is that there are some Dearborn cars out there that are simply not equal to showroom condition.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

When judging, I take off points for PITTED parts (as opposed to very lightly rusted). The standard the car is being judged against is how it left the factory. I'm pretty sure they rolled off the assembly line without pitted parts. NOSpartsman is correct in that it is odd that relatively easy parts to find were not used on a vehicle that was assembled to be judged.

Deuce, I am with you and Paul (nospartsman) on this one. Cars are supposed to be judged against how they left the factory. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not an owner could find the correct parts nor does it have anything to do with the cost.
Unfortunately the Early Ford V8 Club is rapidly turning in to the Early Ford "where we ate" Club.
A guy shows up, gets his trophy and everyone is happy. No matter if he deserved it or not. Right?

Wrong!
Me? I am growing qiuite tired of this "don't kill the car" mantra we as judges hear at each and every judges meeting. "Don't kill the car" has turned in to (all too often) "don't hurt the owners feelings".
If it's wrong or poorly restored, I mark a deduction. I am more than willing to help anyone "get it right" and put them on the path to finding correct parts.
While I have been told I am strict as a judge, I have yet to hear I am unfair or incorrect.
I have said it too many times to recall "Not all of us play on the same level. Some have deeper pockets than others, some have more talent than others. That's why there are those that truly excel and those that fall a bit behind. That's life within any given subject."
I am hoping the Club gets back to the days when earning a Dearborn meant something. The days when attempting to purchase a car that had won this award and a guy knew before inspecting it, just what it was going to be.

[charles in east texas]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Well said, Kube. Charles

[19Fordy]

KUBE: You are correct in your thinking and judging. DON"T RELENT!

[Barry-ct]

Absolutely Correct Kube! Stick to your guns!

[Charlie ny]

What Mike says.........this is an offshoot of every kid gets a trophy so his self esteem won't be crushed...... BS......I don't judge anymore because of that. I'm rather
pleased the really obvious items such as fuel pumps and carburetors are still nailed if not factory correct, think that will eventually get a 'wink'.
Charlie ny

[nospartsman]

The purpose of my post was not to criticize V8 club judging standards nor Concourse judged cars. I am in awe of anyone who undertakes a quality restoration, the time, expense, effort, research and talent are beyond my capabilities. Manifolds that are shown badly pitted always stuck out like a sore thumb to me as a spectator. It was just a mystery that I thought I would ask to see if anyone could explain. I enjoy all aspects of Ford collecting, restoration, driven cars, and even street rods. I think the Flathead driven cars are the guys with the broadest smiles..... Moonshine Festival tourers come to mind. Old Henry too.

[JM 35 Sedan]

There is another side of the restoration coin that I have not seen mentioned on this thread and that is judging cars that are obviously "over restored". I see this quite frequently on the show field. Cars that are so perfectly done that you know there is absolutely no way they left the Ford assembly lines this perfect. I am wondering how many points you experienced judges deduct in this type of situation?

[Cecil/WV]

I was on a team at a meet where we deducted for a powder coated undercarriage.

[stangblue]

Judging has a lot of variables. I built my car, according to the production date of the vehicle and it is verified by service letters issued by Ford and conversations with others. (IE Deluxe Roadster 1933 starting 04/17/33 Interior to have Copra Drab interior to 06/07/34 then changed to Taupe color interior). Now in order to have Taupe interior your car by reference to the serial # would have to be built in June of 1934 (or even better yet not the first low production cars produced in June) now that is splitting hairs. But I believe this is not taken into consideration at all when judging (probably a good thing). They basically say don't kill the cars. Well, I understand that as well because the hobby is supposed to be fun and being with people that share the same interest. But there are some that, probably including me, that share in the sport of "Upmanship". Now before I get criticized, this is my thing. I guess I like order and semblance and research. I also feel that when you do most of the work on the restoration yourself that should hold more credence and accomplishment, then opening up your wallet for someone elses labor. In my case, such as painting of the body, rebuilding shocks, recoring a radiator, etc... Am I going to allow myself to ruin or learn that part of the project without the proper training and equipment? You just have to remember what points are deducted at one meet and are corrected before the next. You can be sure there will more deducted at the next one for something else! :-)

[rockfla]

First....What is "Over Restored?".....I've seen old movies (with V8's) and original factory photo's with exceptionally shinny paint jobs with exceptional reflections......So who determines or what standard is there for "Over restoration?"
Second.....As a 32 owner (son).....yes there are running factory changes and notifications (research materials avail) and "ONE" can "GENERALLY" get their car close to "RIGHT" by the frame number...BUT....In the end no one can specifically say with 100% certainty that it's right or wrong!!!!!
Third.....restorations and car clubs are like golf courses.....there is ALWAYS a group who is unhappy!!!!!! There is ALWAYS a group who is happy!!!!! and there is ALWAYS a group who for the most part is ambivalent!!!!! By and large I feel the club does a good job of keeping the major standards of the years in focus and being somewhat flexible in the areas that MAYNOT matter as much. That's my opinion!

[FL&WVMIKE]

Over restored are as wrong as under rerstored cars, in my opinion.
The car makers did not spend the time in a first class paint job as the over restorers do, today. They could not afford to. They did not have the quality of paint, either.
An over restored car is beautiful and I wish that I had the talent, but I don't, so no problem for me.
I wish that I was able to paint like this ! This is amazing !
MIKE (mikeburch)
CLICK ON PHOTO TO ENLARGE

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Cecil/WV

I was on a team at a meet where we deducted for a powder coated undercarriage.

I have to ask how the judges knew it was powder finished vs. painted. I also have to ask what criteria was used to deem this deduction correct. Was the frame to glossy in your opinion?
Did this team of judges deduct for non lacquer finish on the body panels?

[stangblue]

My frame was powder coated so were my rims. One rim had a slighly bent spoke and had a point deducted as well but not for the finish. The frame was powder coated semi gloss black just a little bit duller not much more than the rest of my chassic parts that I painted Dupont Chassic Black. I imagine over time the Dupont Chassic Black will lose some of it's luster and may even things up. Powder coating seems to have has a different sheen than the paint. I'm very Happy with the results of powder coating and the Show.

[rockfla]

At FL&WVMike
Look at ebay #'s 370825953291, 350832832081,350870142780 & 350863017352 ALL are Ford factory release photo's and I defy you to look at those paint jobs, the clarity of the reflections and the crispness of the reflective lines and tell me that you wouldn't consider those "Over restored" paint jobs today. I don't buy it!!!!!! those are a good cross section from 1935, 37, 39, and 40 and all are very fine, very smooth, very reflective paint jobs. Instead of over restored we oughta be talking about white wall tires, especially on 1932 thru 1935's (at least)!!!!! My opinion.

[Cecil/WV]

Originally Posted by Kube

I have to ask how the judges knew it was powder finished vs. painted. I also have to ask what criteria was used to deem this deduction correct. Was the frame to glossy in your opinion?
Did this team of judges deduct for non lacquer finish on the body panels?

The frame was so shiny you could see yourself in it. I don't remember what else except the owner had it parked with all the valve stems at the bottom and the Ford logo on the hubcaps were all parallel. LOL

[stangblue]

Did it have Dearborn air in tires as well.