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04-06-2019, 04:04 PM | #1 |
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The A will not move
Working on a club members coupe. He backed the car out of the garage and put in it first gear, let out the clutch and nothing happened. I removed the floor boards and look in the inspection cover to confirm the clutch was working. Depressing the pedal you can see the through out bearing contacting the fingers on the pressure plate and working as it should. Next I removed the tower from the transmission. With the car running when I release the clutch the input shaft in the tranny turns. I next removed the top have of the clam shell that covers the u joint. visibility is limited there is only a small hole that I could look in to. It appears the joint is turning but with the rear wheels off the ground there is not movement. I next pulled both brake drums thinking he broke a axel key. Both keys are in tact and in contact with the drums, however with the drums off the axel will not turn. Is there enough room inside the clam shell for the unit to come apart? And am I correct that to remove the clam shell for inspection we need to remove the rear end, or motor. Is it possible for the bolt to come out and the shaft to separate? Any help is appreciated. We plan to look into this more deeply on this Thursday.
thank for all your responses. bob |
04-06-2019, 04:43 PM | #2 |
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Re: The A will not move
First,don't run that car with the shift tower removed.At the least it will sling a ring of gear oil around the inside of the car.I saw it happen on a coupe,it got the door panels,seat,headliner,the complete inside.They tried to have it cleaned,but in the end the interior had to be replaced.The way those gears are tipped to the rear if it is run without the forks holding them,they can drift rearward and everything locks up.Some call it getting in two gears at once.
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04-06-2019, 05:16 PM | #3 |
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Re: The A will not move
Don’t go taking things apart. It’s probably your gears are in the wrong place. Put car in third, move the gears around until you can push it. That will clear the rear end.
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04-06-2019, 05:43 PM | #4 |
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Re: The A will not move
Does the car have an overdrive? If so, check to see if the shift lever is in neutral.
Tom Endy |
04-06-2019, 05:58 PM | #5 |
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Re: The A will not move
no over drive. Also the trans was low but not empty on oil. I was carful to just let the clutch out enough to begin the movement of the gear's. This is a new car to this member. It was just purchased at the end of last season. We as the club are still in the process of helping him iron out all the kinks.
There is a problem with the shift tower in that the gear shift touches the dash when you select reverse or second. You can see a definite bend in the lever. That was my first though in that it was in between to gears. I took over an extra tower I have just to check that. When the two slider gears ( the one's the forks go into) are in neutral the trans is in neutral correct? If not what do I need to do. Also we had the trans with shift tower installed in neutral and pushed the car back into the garage. It rolls free and easy. |
04-06-2019, 06:01 PM | #6 |
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Re: The A will not move
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04-06-2019, 06:44 PM | #7 |
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Re: The A will not move
When the car is in gear is the speedometer working. If so, I would say problem is in the back of car.
Last edited by WHN; 04-07-2019 at 06:02 PM. |
04-06-2019, 06:58 PM | #8 |
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Re: The A will not move
Purdy, when that happened to you do you check to see if the trans was turning? My though is if the rivets all were stripped the friction material would not connect with the pressure plate.
I did not check to see if the Speedo was turning. Good thought! |
04-06-2019, 07:22 PM | #9 |
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Re: The A will not move
Um. Speedometer and driveshaft work together. If the speedometer shows forward motion and the hubs up on jacks are stationary, I guess you could say the problem is to the rear of the driveshaft.
Transmission is in neutral when the two "forks" of the left/right gear shifters are matched together and "midway." They might be matched with gear three engaged and gear one engaged (or conversely reverse engaged and gear two engaged.) Joe K
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04-06-2019, 07:59 PM | #10 |
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Re: The A will not move
The friction material or clutch lining stayed in contact with the pressure plate . The clutch lining rivets were all still in place . the metal flange that rivets to the center of the clutch disk had all of its rivets stripped off .This is the part that the splined end of the transmission main drive slips into . The transmission wasn't turning because it no longer had real contact to the clutch disk .
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04-06-2019, 08:25 PM | #11 |
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Re: The A will not move
Stripped pinion gear?
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04-06-2019, 08:47 PM | #12 |
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Re: The A will not move
If riveted style universal joint, it could have come apart.
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04-06-2019, 08:57 PM | #13 |
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Re: The A will not move
Take the fill plug out of the rear. On jack stands put the car in gear and see if you can see oil moving or the ring gear move in the rear. I had a drive shaft brake once. I had movement at the speedometer but no movement at the rear. Could only be one thing. Broken drive shaft. When I got it apart that was what it was.
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04-06-2019, 09:40 PM | #14 |
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Re: The A will not move
Joe K
If the two other gears are engaged even though the shift forks indicate the trans is in neutral wouldn't the car stall when the clutch is released? Also there was not bang or noise when he shifted from reverse to first. Remember he backed the car out of the garage, shifted gears and no forward motion, also no rear motion. It's like something came apart! but what? |
04-06-2019, 10:34 PM | #15 |
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Re: The A will not move
If the driveshaft is turning which is easily confirmed by noise and vibration you can also pull the filler plug in the rear end to see if the ring gear is turning. If so and the car is not moving you have a broken axle. If the axle was working a break spot it could have hung on and not taken much to have snapped at that point. If that is the case he is extremely lucky.
Check the Above and report back. Larry shepard |
04-06-2019, 11:29 PM | #16 |
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Re: The A will not move
Will it work in third?
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04-07-2019, 09:07 AM | #17 |
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Re: The A will not move
I think you have a sheared key way on the rear axel. Ed
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04-07-2019, 09:11 AM | #18 |
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Re: The A will not move
Bingo!
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04-07-2019, 09:23 AM | #19 |
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Re: The A will not move
Post #1 says keys are good........................
Paul in CT |
04-07-2019, 10:28 AM | #20 |
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Re: The A will not move
pull your speedo drive off the torque tube put the trans in gear let out the clutch and look up in the speedo drive hole and see if the drive shaft is turning if it is turning then your U joint is good. sound like it is in the rear end.
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04-07-2019, 11:55 AM | #21 | |
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Re: The A will not move
Quote:
Very true. You're reading the details while I am "skimming" and caught a high point. My bad. Joe K
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04-07-2019, 12:56 PM | #22 |
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Re: The A will not move
I had a similar situation. Installed a new rear end, went to test drive it, worked in Reverse but not in any forward gear. When releasing clutch in forward gear car stalled.
A fellow from our club stopped by with a very small pry bar type screw driver. Put the car in third gear, rocked it back and forth, he placed the pry bar ever so gently between the transmission case and the gear closest to the aft of the transmission.Gently rocked it and the transmission came unstuck. I am not saying that is the case with yours but you might try it. Gerry |
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04-07-2019, 02:00 PM | #23 |
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Re: The A will not move
With what you have said, sounds as if its a broken axle. Can probably/maybe be fixed without removing the rear end.
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04-07-2019, 05:37 PM | #24 | |
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Re: The A will not move
Quote:
Um. In a word - no. To replace an axle means taking apart the "pumpkin." And to get there from here means removing the axle from the spring. It may be possible to drive out the shackles by use of a "spring spreader" and thereby drop the important part - but you'll be wheeling it over to a bench, removing the wheels and hubs, and pulling the axle(s), differential/ring gear, unbolting the differential enclosure to access the axle ends/spider gears. And then, rebuilding the whole thing again with a new axle. It may be possible that you can escape the "bluing" and gear contact part of the exercise of setting up a rear axle - after all, all you're doing is exchanging one captive part for another. All the other dimensions/relative locations of parts are set in the pumpkin/enclosure. The only really difficult part I see is in disassembly of the pumpkin, you no doubt will tear a gasket. Not insurmountable but the gasket thickness IS where pinion/ring gear contact is set. If you do tear, use a micrometer to find the total thickness of gasket (there may be layers) AND document its location on the assembly (right or left. And DON'T swap the trumpet housings left to right inadvertently. That same bluing/gear contact issue will surface if you do. (i.e. the relative position of the bearing to the flange of the trumpet housing may be slightly different side to side.) Joe K
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04-07-2019, 09:02 PM | #25 |
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Re: The A will not move
I replaces an axle in my sept 29 strip down without removing the back end . I used a spring spreader and removed the spring shackle on the drivers side . I carefully unbolted the drivers side axle housing and was able to remove it without tearing the gasket up too badly .. I removed the axle nut and then the hub and drum on the passenger side . I could then pull doth axles and differential out from the drivers side . The differential housing will need to be unbolted and separated . Marke the differential housing so that you will be able to bolt it back together , the same way that it came appart . There are three spider gears that fit between the axles . Start the replacement axle through the removed side of the differential and fit the pieces back together as they came apart . I used non hardening gasket maker and fitted the pieces of the gasket back in place . The back end had been silent before disassembly . I didn't remove any bearings and could really see no need in going through the usual bearing set up ritual . The back end is still quiet . the only reason that I replaced the axle was because the threads were bad .
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04-07-2019, 09:32 PM | #26 |
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Re: The A will not move
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04-07-2019, 10:01 PM | #27 |
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Re: The A will not move
If the axle is broken , a person should be able to grab the wheel on the broken axle side and be able to remove the wheel and axle just by pulling . usually the wheel and axle fall off and the rear fender and possible the body get damaged . It could cause a wreck. I doubt that an axle is broken .
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04-07-2019, 10:23 PM | #28 |
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Re: The A will not move
If I were going to replace a broken axle at home I would pull the entire rear end and disassemble it and rebuild it up from ground zero. However more than one broken axle has been replaced in the parking lot of a hotel without the rear end being removed from the car. Attached article is how it is done.
Tom Endy |
04-08-2019, 02:32 PM | #29 |
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Re: The A will not move
Title sounds like some tenants I have had in a rental! (:>)
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04-09-2019, 10:36 AM | #30 |
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Re: The A will not move
Hello again
Sorry for not responding but I have been out of town for a couple days. After reading all your comments and having a fresh mind set I went over to the car again this morning. First thing I did was to pull on both axel's to see if they were broke, neither one cam out. Next I removed the fill plug in the rear end to see if the ring gear turned, with the trans in all three forward gears and reverse, there was no movement of the ring gear. Moved up to the spedo gear and removed the drive assemble from the bottom of the trans, again in all gears there was not movement. Now I did not have the motor running I was turning the gears with the starter, I did not think the slower revolutions would make a difference. Looking at the universal joint with the limited viewing it still appears to turn. There are two 1/4 inch holes in the clam shell that I am looking in and I see movement both forward and reverse. Never seeing an old style riveted u joint I am wondering if it came apart, and only the outside is turning? Thanks again for all your responses. bob |
04-09-2019, 01:03 PM | #31 |
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Re: The A will not move
Well, you're certainly narrowing it down.
It is possible the ring type universal is come apart. IIRC, the front portion of the universal is bolted to the output shaft of the tranny - but the rear portion of the universal is free to move on its spline - and if the ring comes apart, the back portion of the universal moves to the back away from the ring and other yoke. As long as the front universal yoke clears the back and the two yokes don't hang up on each other - no movement between front and back can occur. That is unless your ring gets hung up between the two yokes and decides to go "sideways" and comes out through the clamshells. I would check it next by removing the clamshells and try pulling the axle to the rear to the limit of your spring (oh - undo your brake rods before you do this.) You can pull the axle back about and inch or inch and a half and this might be enough to REALLY see what is going on inside the half sphere. Joe K
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04-09-2019, 04:45 PM | #32 |
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Re: The A will not move
jw
I have the spedo off the drive shaft and used the starter to turn over the engine in all gears 1,st 2nd 3rd and rev. at no time did the spedo gear turn but the ujoint will turn forward and backwards with the correct gear used. We are planning to pull the entire rear end on Thursday. Don't know if I want to use the spring spreader and remove the shackle's or unbolt the u bolts and remove with spring attached. When we spin the rear wheels you can see the ring gear turn in both directions. ruling out broken axel? Last edited by bobmc; 04-09-2019 at 04:48 PM. Reason: additional information |
04-09-2019, 04:59 PM | #33 |
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Re: The A will not move
Are you saying that the u-joint is turning but the speedometer drive gear is not turning?
If I am understanding you. That would mean the drive shaft is also not moving. Could you have a broken u-joint? |
04-09-2019, 05:44 PM | #34 | |
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Re: The A will not move
Quote:
We're narrowing it down now! I suggest pulling the rear end back and having a look-see.
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04-09-2019, 09:52 PM | #35 |
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Re: The A will not move
Attached is a picture of a riveted universal joint.
If the rivets come loose, the rotational movement will push the splined half back on the spline on the driveshaft. You will have all of the symptoms you describe. I'd look here first before doing any disassembly of the rear end. Best regards George PS Picture from a current ebay listing |
04-09-2019, 10:06 PM | #36 |
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Re: The A will not move
I have seen a drive stub shaft broken at the forward end of the key slot. This is similar to where an axle shaft breaks. The cause can be the nut not torqued sufficiently allowing the pinion sleeve some movement which will work against the key and cause a crack to start at the forward end of the slot. Eventually the crack will work its way around the circumference and break off.
This phenomenon is more prevalent with cottage industry overdrives installed where the builder did not line up the housing sections properly and had the stub shaft on a bias. Tom Endy |
04-10-2019, 05:54 AM | #37 |
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Re: The A will not move
Hmm, this is different isn't it. Kinda sounds as if the rear end does have to come out. I prefer to remove it with the spring attached if the car can be raised enough to allow the spring to clear everything. But, in this case it may be better to leave the spring in the car [ use a spreader].
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04-11-2019, 02:21 PM | #38 |
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Re: The A will not move
Well the verdict is in!
We pulled the rear end today, removing the shackles using the spring spreader. The rear end / torque tube assembly moved back and down. The universal joint remained attached to the trans. Now in order to explain what happened let me tell you how the universal joint is assembled. There is a yoke that attaches to the output shaft of the trans with a bolt/lock washer and special washer with a tab. Then there is the inner part the is sold as a repair for the universal join. Followed by the rear yoke that slides onto the driveshaft coming from the rear end. The rear yoke broke in two pieces. The brake was in such a manor that the two pieces could pass each other without touching. Now we contacted two of the well known vendors and both informed us that the unit they sell is not in stock due to mfg. issues. We were able to locate one from another vendor who claims that he has no experience with any of his ujoints. We should have it in our hand by next week. Time will tell if it is going to fit. As a back up plan we have the option to acquire a good used one. Thanks for all your help and support. bob |
04-11-2019, 03:26 PM | #39 |
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Re: The A will not move
A V8 U-joint would also work................
Paul in CT |
04-11-2019, 03:33 PM | #40 |
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Re: The A will not move
If it's shaped like the one on the left it won't work.
Bob |
04-11-2019, 04:24 PM | #41 | |
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Re: The A will not move
Quote:
There was an issue a while back with U-joints on the market being made incorrectly. They probably all come from the same place. I suspect the one you ordered will be incorrect. The better suppliers, such as Bratton pulled them from sale. If the one that broke on you was from that incorrect batch it is probably the reason for the failure. Your best bet is to find a used one that works. There are plenty around. I see them at swap meets all the time. A used one can usually be had for about $35. Tom Endy |
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04-11-2019, 06:43 PM | #42 |
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Re: The A will not move
I hope your friend appreciates the fact that the car broke in his driveway. It's a good car that leaves you at least within reach of a cold one.
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04-11-2019, 07:26 PM | #43 |
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Re: The A will not move
Bob, interesting thread with the final verdict. A few years ago I passed on a purchase of an A with your initial problem, good to hear it will be a reasonable fix.
Let us know how you make out with the available U-joints. |
04-12-2019, 08:04 AM | #44 |
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Re: The A will not move
WELL, there goes my theory of a stripped Kotter Keyt!!!---LOL
Bill Guessing
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04-12-2019, 09:03 AM | #45 | |
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Re: The A will not move
Quote:
It much be the market doesn't demand too much or too often? Still D-S U-joints in various parts/arrangements still show in their engineering data. I ultimately found my "mix & match" U-joint on a bottom shelf of a local Model A Vendor. "Where did you get this?" I asked seeing the 6 in and 10 spline out? "Oh I picked it up at a flea market somewhere." As others have said - U-joints are out there. Your best bet may be Bert's. Joe K
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04-12-2019, 12:57 PM | #46 |
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Re: The A will not move
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04-13-2019, 02:36 PM | #47 |
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Re: The A will not move
Seem to recall there was an issue with the splines on some of the repos. If you to ahead with the one you bought, make sure it fits the splines. If it does not slide on and off easy, don't force it, return it.
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04-14-2019, 05:33 AM | #48 |
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Re: The A will not move
The same joint fits 28-48 Fords. Fred Wilner at Southside Obsolete has NOS Ford Ujoints. He is on the Ford Barn as barnfind08 and you can PM him. A phone call also works.
http://www.southsideobsolete.com/Sou...e/Welcome.html John
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