Brake drums.

[Jim M]

I recently went through my 29 Std Roadster brake system and replaced almost everything. The only thing I didn't do was the drums and brake shoes. The drums LOOKED very good and the shoes had probably 1/8 - 3/16 left to get down to the rivets. One mistake I know I made was I am fairly sure...but NOT positive... that the shoes are on the correct drums but what I am NOT sure is if they the are placed back in the same positions on the drums. The end result is the play is all gone, I have plenty of pedal, but the brakes won't lock up tight and stopping is a slow process. I did make the notched board to do the adjusting and feel quite confident they are adjusted properly.

I have searched all through many posts and I have not found out how to know if my drums are cast iron or what they are. It seems to me my next step would be to take the wheels apart, have the drums turned down, get new linings and have them "centered". I love to do everything myself as I have learned so much in the project, but I think it is time to get some expert help as I am now VERY hesitant to drive on anything but a rural back road and even then I putt around an about 25 MPH.

Any suggestions or advice would be GREATLY appreciated. JIm

[mrtexas]

Doubtful your drums are cast. They are easy to spot, much thicker.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

sounds like your shoes are not centered

[Quigley1930]

Someone posted a picture of the difference. I can not find it but it's on the edge where the difference shows. Quite obvious.

Sewall Tyler

[160B]

Below is a photo of a cast drum unpainted on the left and a steel drum painted on the right. Note that the steel drum has a rolled edge and the cast drum has a solid edge.

[mshmodela]

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160B,

Thanks for that photo... yet to pull my drums... but I now know what I have drum wise..

[Jim M]

Great picture! I do have steel. Seriously thinking of getting new cast iron. I have tried to keep my Roadster as close to original as possible since most replacement parts are crap compared to original. But this may be one instance where the new is better than the old. Also, with today's traffic can't think of anything more important than good brakes. Them maybe I can go a little over 25 MPH.......lol

[ccb360]

Did you replace the cams/camshafts/bushings. If you have a stuck cam you may have only 1 shoe engaging the drum(s).

[Tom Wesenberg]

No need to turn the drums unless they are badly grooved, or out of round. I would first try to arrange the shoes as they used to be, so you have full contact.

Also make sure all moving parts are well lubed. Inside the drum, any lube used should have a high melting point.

[Tim B.]

If it stopped well before you put in the shoes it should stop well after if assembled correctly. As Tom noted it sounds like you aren't getting full shoe contact. Couple of other things to look at: you didn't mention if the shoes were arched to match the drum, if not you won't be getting full contact, are the roller pins facing in the correct direction with the heads on the tracks if not the shoes won't center and move correctly, and was all of the slack taken out of the brake rods before adjusting the shoes using your notched board?

[Jim M]

Tom, Thanks for your reply. I thought the same thing - that is why I didn't have them turned down. There are no bad groves. I don't know how to make sure they are perfectly round. I am thinking the brake shoes are not centered correctly. I am going to buy one of the centering tools so I can check them,

I probably should have give a little history of what I did. The car had not been run in about 20 years. I bought the CD "How to make it stop on a dime" and after watching it several times the first thing I did was check the rods, clevises, and center cross shaft. Everything was VERY sloppy so I took the cross shaft off and sent it to Bratton's for rebuilding. It was beautify when it came back. I then ordered just about everything new, took all the wheels off, and put in the new parts. Put everything back together and adjusted them according to Les Andrews manual (including making the block with Knoches for the adjustments) and took it for a test drive in my driveway. This is the first Model A I have every driven so I have not reference to go on
but I had to really apply pressure to the pedal and it stops very slowly. Took it back to the shop and checked the adjustments and all appear to be fine. Have driven it some on a back road with same results. I definitely can NOT lock up the wheels. Other than getting the centering tool and checking out the shoes I am kind of at a loss. I am tempted to purchase new cast iron drums and new brake shoes but hate to spend another $500+ and have same results. I am open to any suggestions and thanks for listening.

Oh and Tim - I have no idea how it stopped before.

[Bob C]

Did you replace or weld up your brake roller tracks??
I like to use the brake adjustment instructions in the
Service Bulletins.

Bob

[Keith True]

There are quite a few more things to look for.Did you replace the tracks?Rollers and pins? What is the position of the front brake lever in the front with the slop taken out and the pin removed.If is is vertical at rest then you can stand on the pedal all you want and you won't stop.It needs to be 15 degrees ahead with the slop taken up.It would take a half hour of writing to go through what to look for and properly adjust,but somebody,(I think it was Purdy Swoft)wrote the step by step way to adjust brakes so they work.Most importantly,throw that board away.I don't know who came up with that idea,but I have seen it in a 50 year old publication.I don't really know what it does.The braking pressure,and percentage front and rear is built in by the lengths of the levers,but somebody got the idea you could change it by the adjustments.I have seen nothing but problems by blindly following that board procedure.I did work a couple of years ago on a car that the owner had replaced a lot of parts and used the board to adjust.The car wouldn't stop.The owner argued he had all new parts,adjusted it by the board,and it just didn't work.I started at the pedal,and worked my way out.He had nice brakes.

[Jim M]

I did replace the roller tracks. They had big half moons in them. I replaced everything but the drums and shoes. Interesting you say throw the board away since that is how the Les Andrews book says to adjust them before making a trial run. I just did a google search for the Service Bulletin and there is an excerpt from it that gives the dimensions to cut the notches in the board to hold the brake pedal down while making the adjustments. I will search the treads here to see if I Purdy Swoft's method.
Keith, I don't quite understand what you mean by "started at the pedal and worked my way out"

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by Keith True

There are quite a few more things to look for.Did you replace the tracks?Rollers and pins? What is the position of the front brake lever in the front with the slop taken out and the pin removed.If is is vertical at rest then you can stand on the pedal all you want and you won't stop.It needs to be 15 degrees ahead with the slop taken up.It would take a half hour of writing to go through what to look for and properly adjust,but somebody,(I think it was Purdy Swoft)wrote the step by step way to adjust brakes so they work.Most importantly,throw that board away.I don't know who came up with that idea,but I have seen it in a 50 year old publication.I don't really know what it does.The braking pressure,and percentage front and rear is built in by the lengths of the levers,but somebody got the idea you could change it by the adjustments.I have seen nothing but problems by blindly following that board procedure.I did work a couple of years ago on a car that the owner had replaced a lot of parts and used the board to adjust.The car wouldn't stop.The owner argued he had all new parts,adjusted it by the board,and it just didn't work.I started at the pedal,and worked my way out.He had nice brakes.

Your last comment did not address Keith's suggestion which is most important, that regarding the correct angle of the front brake levers.

[Jim M]

Front brake levers are adjusted at 15 degrees

[Keith True]

When I say I start at the pedal,I make sure it is up against the floor.Then I adjust the rod to the cross shaft so the levers on the ends are vertical.Operate the pedal and watch the cross shaft to see if it hits anywhere.I've seen them rubbing on the bottom of the transmission.How are you getting the 15 degree angle on the brake lever? Did you check the links on the shoes that slide into the adjusters? They all have to be the exact same length,at least in each assembly.A lot of them have been filed by people trying to band-aid things.One just a few thousandths longer than the other will result in one shoe hitting and the other just riding out a little bit.You can slide them in a line down a pencil and eyeball them.If any are different it will show up compared to the others.

[Tom Wesenberg]

How far down does the brake pedal go before it's firm?

Where were the jack stands when you did the brake adjustments and work?

Are the brake linings the woven material?

[Jim M]

Tom, The brake pedal was very firm at the third notch on the adjustment stick (2"). The jack stands were on the axles. All the work and adjustments were made on the jack stands. I believe the linings are woven material but I will have to pull the wheels off and check them. Unfortunately I am away from the car right now but will check that out as soon as I can. Just sand blasted and painted the rims and new tires are in shipment. Thanks so much for all the help and suggestions. I am thinking I should have Brattons put new linings on the brake shoes and get a centering tool to make sure they are OK. If that doesn't work then it must be the drums. Am I correct in assuming (Hate that word!) that if I have the drums turned down that would correct them if the are currently out of round or should I buy new ones?? How would I check to see if they are out of round? After seeing the quality of many of the replacement parts I really would like to stay with as much original as possible.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Don't take the shotgun approach of guessing and changing parts. Find the reason for the brakes not stopping the car first. Pictures of your brakes could help. The centering tool might be good to show a contact problem.

[Jim M]

Thanks Tom - good point. I will order the centering tool today and report back soon. Thanks again for all your advice and council.

[Jim M]

Forgot to ask - what is the best way to see if the drums are out of round and by how much. Should I take them to a parts store that turns them down??

[Jim M]

Having trouble with post - oops just found out need to go to page 2....dah

[Tom Wesenberg]

Unless you see a flat spot on the drop, where it fell off a jack or the wheel fell off while driving down the road, I would just assume the drums are round. My 29 Tudor have a very bad pulse in the brake pedal, so I knew one of the drums was bad. As soon as I saw the flat spot on the edge of the rolled lip, I knew that was the problem drum. I swapped it with a good drum and all was well.

Look at the rolled lip right where it leaves the braking surface. If it's a nice smooth transition, then you can bet the drum has never been turned. If it has a line from being cut, that will be easy to see, and the sharper the transition, the more has been cut from the drum.

[Jim M]

Will do!

[mhsprecher]

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I have used the Les Andrews, notched board approach on two cars. My town sedan with cast iron drums stops on a dime now. My roadster, with steel drums, stops much better since I adjusted them using that method, but nothing like the sedan. I am going to get some cast iron drums. In reading the service bulletins, Les's method is very similar to what the Ford Service Bulletins suggest, so I think that is a pretty good method to use. All that said, there can be many factors contributing, as previous comments have shared.