Model A Registration Woes

[Ed in Maine]

Today I went to look at a 1931 Model A that is for sale. I liked it, it is a good ten footer in very good running condition. The price was negotiated and I am happy with it. This is the situation:
1. The owner has passed away and his wife is selling the car.
2. The car has an out of state plate and registration and a title. It seems that the owner felt it was more convenient to keep the old paper work then to re-register the car in his new home state.
3. I have a copy of the title and death certificate and plan to go to the DMV for advice before I seal the deal with payment.
4. After I got back home, I find that the VIN # on the title does not match the number on the engine. The engine must have been changed when it was rebuilt. I suppose the VIN # on the frame may match the title but who wants to go through all the work of removing the front fender?


I want the car but I'm afraid I will be laughed out of the DMV trying to register a car with a different ID number. Has anyone run across a situation like this? Any suggestions? Thank you, Ed

[alexiskai]

Fair warning here, most advice will be state-specific.

[Jacksonlll]

We had the same thing happen. They had to deal with the state where the title was.
On the number, the state probably assigned a vin number and that is the one to use. It has nothing to do with the engine number. Both of my A’s have state assigned numbers with a small plate on the fire wall. I think your plan is good. Just go in and lay it all out. You will be ok.

[gdmn852]

Hello,Pennsylvania will issue a state VIN number to be attached to the car usually on the firewall if the original can’t be found or missing or doesn’t match title. Seems rare to find a Model A still having the original engine.A friend of mine bought a 1939 Lincoln Zephyr from New York and had to go that process.He didn’t know it was on bell housing.

[Bill G]

The state that it is currently registered in may have put a registration plate on the firewall or the inside door jamb. If that state issued a state assigned number you may be home free.

[gary678*]

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Hi, Hopefully the Maine DMV will not go and try to match the engine number with the registration unless the clerk/agent is trying to be the next Inspector Clouseau (which I highly doubt). Present your papers which indicate a clear title and let them take the ball and process it. DEFINITELY DO NOT TELL THEM ABOUT THE MISMATCH !! Here in NY they took my papers (Model A) which indicated a clear title and processed it immediately, happy to get the money and close the deal. I realize that when it comes to motor vehicle registration every state is a foreign country, but it's the Holiday Season, a time of giving, so I think things will work out! A good strategy might be to go to the DMV Office late in the day when they are in a hurry to close and go home. Good luck!
Please let everyone know how you made out. Gary

[mhsprecher]

Is the current title in his name? That should be okay if it does. You will probably need something to verify that his wife is the executor, unless her name is on the title, which I suspect it is not, plus the death certificate.



As for the VIN/serial number, you have two routes to go. One is to not worry about it and register it in your name. You will not the the only person who has a car where the engine number does not match the title. Without taking the body off, you won't be able to confirm the SN on the title is the same as the frame number. And what if it is not?


The other thing you can do is to see about getting it titled in Vermont initially with the engine number you have. You will need to have a police officer check the SN, run an NCIC check to see if it is stolen and have that same agency give you a letter per the Vermont DMV requirements and then register it in that state and then either run Vermont tags or transfer it to Maine.


New England is a bit different from most states, i.e. what I just told you about Vermont. New Hampshire has a similar process and I wouldn't be surprised if Maine doesn't either. Everyone in the country runs Maine licenses on their trailers so they don't have to pay excise tax on the purchase, so maybe getting a title there for a car like yours isn't very difficult?


I would take all this into account when coming up with a price to pay for the car, because of the title/SN situation. Giving more information to DMV than you need to is not always the best approach. I will PM you my phone number and you can call me if you want to discuss. Someone in Maine or in your local Model A club has probably dealt with a situation similar to this.

[daveymc29]

Take the paperwork to AAA if you are a member. That will probably be the easiest, nest would be go to your own DMV and present the papers. Get the widow to write out a bill of sale which she signs for her late husband. I would not disclose the difference in numbers.

[1crosscut]

Go to the DMV and be straight up about what is going on. If it can be worked out you will have a car you like and will have no worries going forward.
If it turns out you will need to jump through a bunch of hoops to make it work then you will need to decide if that is worth it for the price you negotiated. If not you can negotiate a lower price and go for it or walk away.
There are lots of A's out there.

[Mulletwagon]

Your situation can easily become "title hell". If DMV makes it complicated be prepared to pass on the deal and find a ride with a clear in-state title. Making the deal contingent on getting a clear title was a smart move. Good Luck.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by gary678*

Hi, Hopefully the Maine DMV will not go and try to match the engine number with the registration unless the clerk/agent is trying to be the next Inspector Clouseau (which I highly doubt). Present your papers which indicate a clear title and let them take the ball and process it. DEFINITELY DO NOT TELL THEM ABOUT THE MISMATCH !! Here in NY they took my papers (Model A) which indicated a clear title and processed it immediately, happy to get the money and close the deal. I realize that when it comes to motor vehicle registration every state is a foreign country, but it's the Holiday Season, a time of giving, so I think things will work out! A good strategy might be to go to the DMV Office late in the day when they are in a hurry to close and go home. Good luck!
Please let everyone know how you made out. Gary

Ok, let's assume you get through DMV without telling them about the mismatch. What are you going to do if a police officer stops you for a minor violation and since it is a slow night wants to run the VIN and asks you where it is on the car? What if you are in an accident and your insurance agent looks at the VIN on the car and says "This isn't the car we insured"? How are you going to explain it when you sell it to someone else? My advice is to get the title straight now, it is only going to be worse later.

Charlie Stephens

[TerryO]

Move to Georgia, get a bill pf sale and you are home free


TerryO

[KGBnut]

Yes, the rules are very state specific. Find out exactly what you need in the state of Maine (or the state you are registering in). I think that they are pretty easy.

I had a similar problem and anticipated big problems. However, here in Connecticut for a car that old they were satisfied with just a Bill of Sale.

Best of luck. Keep us posted.

Ken

[Mike V. Florida]

If it were me I would put it on the wife to get the title in her name. Then buy it from her. There is no proof that the husband has ever had title and as such it will most likely need a judge to solve the issue legally.


While absolutely not legal, but I have met people that have just signed the name of the person on the title and re-stamped the engine. Again illegal.

[77Birdman]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

If it were me I would put it on the wife to get the title in her name. Then buy it from her. There is no proof that the husband has ever had title and as such it will most likely need a judge to solve the issue legally.


While absolutely not legal, but I have met people that have just signed the name of the person on the title and re-stamped the engine. Again illegal.

I would go this route. You may be out of luck with Maine, I had a title issue with my car being last titled in Maine, when I contacted the dmv they told me they do not hold records(or titles) for older cars and I was out of luck, and my car was a '79! Truck trailers are a different issue altogether. Those tags are issued through a broker with a residency.

[mike657894]

deaths. have the wife title to her name. bingo bongo fresho titlo. the dead are not authorized to sell in US markets.

[ronn]

Maine is a very easy state to title in. no need to get your liver in a quiver!


who cares if the engine matches up? half of them or more dont.

[Keith True]

I don't think any of what you are reading applies to you.You are in Maine.Just like N.H.you can scribble a bill of sale on the back of an envelope,get a verification of VIN,and go register.I think you are going to complicate things by showing up with old titles from deceased people in other states.If you start volunteering information and asking questions they are going to have to answer questions they don't really have answers for.There are no titles on old cars in Maine.Go talk to old car people around you,they can tell you just what to do,it is a nothing process.The guys I deal with in Maine say they all use just the engine number,if you try to explain the non-matching thing you will start a very confusing situation.

[1931 flamingo]

Do what Keith says, using the existing engine numbar. DO NOT open a "can of worms".
Good Luck, let us know how you make out.
Paul in CT


"Back in the day" I bought and sold dozens of cars here in CT never validating a S/N or VIN #, just copied from the previous pa-work.

[TerryH]

I also recommend talking to your local AAA office first. They process titles and registration and often have someone who specializes in older cars. I did that here in California, with a Model A I purchased from someone in New York. They were great to work with and very efficient.

[denis4x4]

Over on the HAMB they have pretty much eliminated threads like this. Most of the ideas here border on the illegal. Maine has a set of rules. Ask their DMV what is acceptable. Finally, consider how cutting corners may effect the sale to the next owner.

[goodcar]

Originally Posted by Ed in Maine

Today I went to look at a 1931 Model A that is for sale. I liked it, it is a good ten footer in very good running condition. The price was negotiated and I am happy with it. This is the situation:
1. The owner has passed away and his wife is selling the car.
2. The car has an out of state plate and registration and a title. It seems that the owner felt it was more convenient to keep the old paper work then to re-register the car in his new home state.
3. I have a copy of the title and death certificate and plan to go to the DMV for advice before I seal the deal with payment.
4. After I got back home, I find that the VIN # on the title does not match the number on the engine. The engine must have been changed when it was rebuilt. I suppose the VIN # on the frame may match the title but who wants to go through all the work of removing the front fender?


I want the car but I'm afraid I will be laughed out of the DMV trying to register a car with a different ID number. Has anyone run across a situation like this? Any suggestions? Thank you, Ed

I had a similar situation with the car I bought several years ago. Two of the previous owners were deceased, car was passed on to second owner's daughter. Our state allowed for a notarized affidavit from the daughter to enable me to register the car and get a new title. Part of the process involved removing the fender, loosening the body bolts and slighty lifting the body enough to read the vin---not a big job. Start with your state dmv, as others have said, every state is different. You probably have several options, just consider them all before you act.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Good Evening! I would like to add my two cents to going to AAA first, if you are or are not a member. Their reason for being is to help with problems like this. They will know what will work and what will not work. What is legal and what is not. Ernie in Arizona

[Keith True]

Most of these answers are solutions looking for a problem.I repeat,Maine is NON TITLE for the old cars.We have been dragging cars out of the willywags and driving them since there have been cars.Maine and N.H. doesn't have the reverence for documents and such that other states have.i know people find it hard to believe,but they really don't much care.If you have something that is actually stolen,that is a different story,Talk to local guys,and they will tell you in two minutes how to do it legally.

[old31]

I 100% agree with Keith.

Try to talk to some locals. Bring as few docs to the registry as possible. The more docs you bring is more of a chance of confusion and opening a can of worms that you originally didn't have.

In your first post, you said taking off the fender to find the numbers. It is the body that must be lifted to find the numbers.

[eagle]

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By your original post, I take it the owner has a valid title, albeit in another state. That's OK. An engine number matching the original VIN is NOT required, probably a large majority of vintage cars out there have the same thing. So, I don't see a problem. Have the owner's wife write you out a bill of sale and give you a death certificate, bring it to the DMV office and have it transferred into your name. It should be simple and straightforward. There is no law that says you can't stamp a VALID VIN on other parts of the car, in fact some theft deterrent practices do just that. Once it was my car, I'd buy a nice professional VIN tag and afix it to the frame somewhere reasonably easy to see, maybe by the starter or ??? If you KNOW the engine number is in fact NOT the correct VIN, you can remove it. Its not necessary, but can make the process less confusing. Re-stamping the engine with the correct, valid VIN is not only acceptable, it should ALWAYS be done when a replacement engine is installed. You cannot legally remove or deface the true VIN, which is located on the frame, under the body. Its a matter of common sense. If it was me, I'd make the sale agreement contingent on the title transfer. A reasonable seller will be OK with that. What you are looking at here, if I'm understanding the situation correctly, is not going to be an issue. Have all the paperwork in order, state the facts clearly to the DMV, and then close your mouth and let them do their job.

[Flathead]

Hi, I'm in Maine and what Keith says is the right way to go. You do not need a title for an old car in Maine.

[ronn]

AAA processes titles in CALI- nowhere else that I am aware of...........

[Dick Steinkamp]

EVERY state is different when it comes to vehicle registration. EVERY state. Advice for what works in California or Minnesota, or Arizona, or Colorado, or ANY other state is worthless. What works in Ohio WILL NOT work in Maine. ONLY what works in Maine will work in Maine.

[big job]

Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp

EVERY state is different when it comes to vehicle registration. EVERY state. Advice for what works in California or Minnesota, or Arizona, or Colorado, or ANY other state is worthless. What works in Ohio WILL NOT work in Maine. ONLY what works in Maine will work in Maine.

come to taxachussets they do not work for this country. I bought a 1923
ford thats been entombed since 1943. for a title these brain dead idiots want me to dig up a grave for the woman original owner to sign bill of sale; the car went
through couple of hands so I bought it and no one registered it. I paid hard
cash for the thing. I know as an old man flipping out, is this country is
big time with vehicles, ok, school shootings thats ok, ah, but you got a bulb out you are in deep shit. No can do; right jolly roger cross bone. pic of a plate print and paste done. then inspection sticker. for $39 bucks it flew
right off the window. and I have to get another one for their cheap glue no way ; So what I need to now is the billions of dollars in this dump RMV where does does all this money go ? Ah Charley baker another ha ya ah
bill Clinton bro. brain dead pollitition. Where is our pot hole asphalt::: Im sorry'' but being old man no way ta get out of here and its a long walk to down south ........................

[Mulletwagon]

Originally Posted by eagle

By your original post, I take it the owner has a valid title, albeit in another state. That's OK. An engine number matching the original VIN is NOT required, probably a large majority of vintage cars out there have the same thing. So, I don't see a problem. Have the owner's wife write you out a bill of sale and give you a death certificate, bring it to the DMV office and have it transferred into your name. It should be simple and straightforward. There is no law that says you can't stamp a VALID VIN on other parts of the car, in fact some theft deterrent practices do just that. Once it was my car, I'd buy a nice professional VIN tag and afix it to the frame somewhere reasonably easy to see, maybe by the starter or ??? If you KNOW the engine number is in fact NOT the correct VIN, you can remove it. Its not necessary, but can make the process less confusing. Re-stamping the engine with the correct, valid VIN is not only acceptable, it should ALWAYS be done when a replacement engine is installed. You cannot legally remove or deface the true VIN, which is located on the frame, under the body. Its a matter of common sense. If it was me, I'd make the sale agreement contingent on the title transfer. A reasonable seller will be OK with that. What you are looking at here, if I'm understanding the situation correctly, is not going to be an issue. Have all the paperwork in order, state the facts clearly to the DMV, and then close your mouth and let them do their job.

GREAT ADVICE !!
Eagle, you da man. Would just add that the frame number ideally must match the title number - especially important when the vehicle is sold at a later date to someone out of state. Admittedly, difficult to check but good to know.

[DHZIEMAN]

Originally Posted by Ed in Maine

Today I went to look at a 1931 Model A that is for sale. I liked it, it is a good ten footer in very good running condition. The price was negotiated and I am happy with it. This is the situation:
1. The owner has passed away and his wife is selling the car.
2. The car has an out of state plate and registration and a title. It seems that the owner felt it was more convenient to keep the old paper work then to re-register the car in his new home state.
3. I have a copy of the title and death certificate and plan to go to the DMV for advice before I seal the deal with payment.
4. After I got back home, I find that the VIN # on the title does not match the number on the engine. The engine must have been changed when it was rebuilt. I suppose the VIN # on the frame may match the title but who wants to go through all the work of removing the front fender?


I want the car but I'm afraid I will be laughed out of the DMV trying to register a car with a different ID number. Has anyone run across a situation like this? Any suggestions? Thank you, Ed

I kinda backed into the situation, you have. Here in Missouri, I bought a car with a title from a fellow in the state. The difference is he was still alive and the title was current. But the same problem! I noted after I bought the car that the title and motor number did not match. The car is a 1930 and the motor is 1931 according to the number on the block.
No one at the Missouri office checked and neither did I. And from what I can tell, this is not an uncommon issue on a Model A where the motor has been replaced, either with a Model A engine or a later V8. It would be difficult and more confusing, I think, for any state to try and keep changing the serial number of the car to match engine Serial numbers. Just my 2 cents

[eagle]

And from what I can tell, this is not an uncommon issue on a Model A where the motor has been replaced, either with a Model A engine or a later V8. It would be difficult and more confusing, I think, for any state to try and keep changing the serial number of the car to match engine Serial numbers. Just my 2 cents
Its a simple and perfectly legal solution to just restamp the engine to match the car VIN.

[fredski53]

Why don't you just restamp the engine number to match the title. Go on EBay and buy a blank vin plate, and have it stamped to match the engine and title. Mount it under the floorboard on the crossmember. It might not be the most ethical thing to do, but on an 80 year old car and a young person at the DMV, it works!

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by eagle

And from what I can tell, this is not an uncommon issue on a Model A where the motor has been replaced, either with a Model A engine or a later V8. It would be difficult and more confusing, I think, for any state to try and keep changing the serial number of the car to match engine Serial numbers. Just my 2 cents
Its a simple and perfectly legal solution to just restamp the engine to match the car VIN.

Originally Posted by fredski53

Why don't you just restamp the engine number to match the title. Go on EBay and buy a blank vin plate, and have it stamped to match the engine and title. Mount it under the floorboard on the crossmember. It might not be the most ethical thing to do, but on an 80 year old car and a young person at the DMV, it works!

As post #2 said answers are state specific. You guys might want to do a little research on changing VIN numbers, at least read about it on GOOGLE and check with your local DMV. A final thought, don't believe everything you read on the internet just because it agrees with what you want to hear.

Charlie Stephens

[Mike V. Florida]

Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 511, the alteration of a VIN, could be a federal criminal offense. Further, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 2321 whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, could be fined or imprisoned for up to ten years. Similarly, Pennsylvania’s statutes also address this matter. Specifically, 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 7703 states that a person who alters, counterfeits, defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates or removes a vehicle identification number with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000, or both. Further, and most concerning is that pursuant to 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 7704 any person who purchases, receives, disposes, sells, transfers or possesses a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with knowledge that the vehicle identification number of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part has been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised, falsified, forged, obliterated or removed with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000, or both. Moreover consider, especially with the case of restamped engines that, in Pennsylvania, it is illegal knowingly buy, or sell an automotive part from which the manufacturer’s name plate, serial number or any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered or destroyed unless instructed or done by the manufacturer. 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 4104.

[Boston Bruce]

You can go to your local town hall in Maine and register your "new" Model A. They will not take your old title and issue a new title. No new titles for antique cars like Keith says. Do not go to the DMV. Are you a member of a club here in Maine? The Pine Tree A's meet monthly in Kennebunk.


Put the old title you get with the car and the old registration and put it in a safe place in case you ever sell the vehicle to someone in a state that requires a title and/or old registration.

[77Birdman]

Originally Posted by Boston Bruce

You can go to your local town hall in Maine and register your "new" Model A. They will not take your old title and issue a new title. No new titles for antique cars like Keith says. Do not go to the DMV. Are you a member of a club here in Maine? The Pine Tree A's meet monthly in Kennebunk.


Put the old title you get with the car and the old registration and put it in a safe place in case you ever sell the vehicle to someone in a state that requires a title and/or old registration.

I would agree with the first half of this statement. But I would disagree with the second. If you have the title from the seller to keep for a future sale this would be a 'skip'. Skipped titles are illegal and no good in my state (MD) so that would narrow a future sale to just 49 of them, also just a bill of sale from Maine would be impossible to register in MD. I have never used one of the guys that advertise clear titles in any state but I guess one of them could do the job for the right fee.

[Mulletwagon]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 511, the alteration of a VIN, could be a federal criminal offense. Further, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 2321 whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, could be fined or imprisoned for up to ten years. Similarly, Pennsylvania’s statutes also address this matter. Specifically, 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 7703 states that a person who alters, counterfeits, defaces, destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates or removes a vehicle identification number with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000, or both. Further, and most concerning is that pursuant to 18 Pa. C.S.A. § 7704 any person who purchases, receives, disposes, sells, transfers or possesses a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with knowledge that the vehicle identification number of the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part has been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised, falsified, forged, obliterated or removed with the intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity or prevent the identification of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part commits a felony of the third degree and, upon conviction, shall be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than seven years or a fine of not more than $50,000, or both. Moreover consider, especially with the case of restamped engines that, in Pennsylvania, it is illegal knowingly buy, or sell an automotive part from which the manufacturer’s name plate, serial number or any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered or destroyed unless instructed or done by the manufacturer. 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 4104.

A really good read which highlights the murky interpretations for Model As.The concept of VIN numbers was not established until 1955, and therefore, the engine number or frame number is not actually a VIN - although some states take it to be so. With engine changes over 90 years it is clearly unreasonable to tie vehicle ID with the block number. The frame number is forever - but is difficult to see. On a rare occasion,there is no frame number. All this complicates Model A titling where some states force fit current rules which make titling impossible. Good advice is still get the facts from your state, and be prepared to pass on the deal if the climb is just too steep and expensive. Changing engine numbers happens all the time and legality is debatable. No question that the frame number should never be altered. By strictest interpretation of the rules, in some states titling is just too hard to mess with if the numbers do not all agree.

[Keith True]

The A used the serial number,it was not called a VIN.The Branham bible,the book used by town clerks for info to register cars states the Model A Ford uses the engine number,and shows a picture of the number pad.No mention of the frame number.My Branham book is 1932.My Canadian chassis have no frame numbers.In Maine this is not difficult or costly.I sold a 65 VW to a guy in Maine last summer,we made out a bill of sale but got to gabbing and he left it on the toolbox in my garage.A month later he drove in with the car,he got it registered with no problem.There are supposed to be procedures in place in every state to deal with other states requirements,but the clerks in other states seem to ignore that fact,and won't even bother trying to help you.Maine and N.H.are just not like that.Talk to anybody around you that registers pre-title cars,and go to the town clerk with the info they tell you to.

[fredski53]

You talk about the frame number should never be altered, what if the frame has been replaced?! Do you restamp the frame to match the engine? These car are old! Parts are changed. Since the Model A was built before VIN numbers were used, then why don't ALL the states just issue these cars a MODERN VIN and we can move on!

[ronn]

Every time title talk comes up- grumps come out...................


Lol

[DD931]

Because Maine is a no-title state I think you should be able to slide through. Just go down to your town hall and file the paperwork. I've done it before with successful outcome. Go to the town hall - not the DMV. You don't need a title - only a bill of sale.