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Old 09-16-2019, 03:55 PM   #1
frnkeore
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Default Early V8 Dyno Work

I have read, with great interest, the work of Ted Eaton and his Y block, dyno tests.

Has anyone done anything like that with the first generation V8's? Or does anyone have any dyno runs on there own engines that they would like to share?

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Old 09-16-2019, 05:33 PM   #2
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

There are several books out there on the topic. One is JWLs (who post often here on the Barn) book. Joe Abbin also has books out with dyno data.
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

The Aussie Mike Davidson has books out with dyno info
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

JWL says 400+ dyno runs, that should give you some ideas.
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Old 09-16-2019, 06:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

JWL's are real world tests.
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Old 09-16-2019, 09:41 PM   #6
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Old 09-17-2019, 05:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

I'll have to get JWL's book.

Can I assume that no one else has had their engine on a dyno (what about a chassis dyno), even to jet the carbs?
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by frnkeore View Post
I'll have to get JWL's book.

Can I assume that no one else has had their engine on a dyno (what about a chassis dyno), even to jet the carbs?
Yes I have had my car on a dyno, 39 standard coupe, to check output and A/F ratio. As a follow up to a previous engine failure due to a detonation problem.
Ended up going up 1 jet size on Main Jet, a single Stromberg 97 carb. Standard 81A engine 83 thou over. Edelbrock Heads. Dont have figures handy.
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Last edited by Phil Gillespie; 09-17-2019 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 07:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Main jets size
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Old 09-17-2019, 08:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

I have recommended dyno tuning to several people who did so and liked the results.
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Dave Tatom has done dyno runs on a blown flathead he races at Bonneville. He is in Mt Vernon, WA, and tests his flatheads, as well as other engines, in Renton, as I recall.
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Old 11-30-2019, 12:26 PM   #12
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

I have dyno tested several Ford Flathead V8's. The standard build for a street Flattie will make 150 HP while an all out build (normally aspirated) will break the 200 HP mark. I did dyno a blown Flat Head V8 for an old school dragster that made in excess of 450 HP but that engine was set up on 'Kill'. Ted Eaton.
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Old 11-30-2019, 01:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Thank you, very much, Ted. Are those dyno results posted somewhere on your web site?

If not, could you give general specs for a 150 HP and a 200 hp build? Such as, cubic inch, approx C/R, cam and carburation?
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Old 11-30-2019, 01:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Oh, one other thing, did the ignition timing vary much between the 150 and 200 hp versions?
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Old 11-30-2019, 01:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by frnkeore View Post
Thank you, very much, Ted. Are those dyno results posted somewhere on your web site?

If not, could you give general specs for a 150 HP and a 200 hp build? Such as, cubic inch, approx C/R, cam and carburation?
I am interested in this as well.
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Old 11-30-2019, 02:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by frnkeore View Post
I'll have to get JWL's book.

Can I assume that no one else has had their engine on a dyno (what about a chassis dyno), even to jet the carbs?




I have had my engines on the rear wheel dyno a number of times however the results must remain a secret. All I can say is more than one HP per cube at the wheels and over 200 MPH on the race surface. Very valuable for getting a good jetting tune up.
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Old 11-30-2019, 04:26 PM   #17
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

I doubt that anyone has reached the 200 hp mark with a normally aspirated flathead. using regular gas (91/93 oct). The reason I say this, is: the ports wont pass enough air. They come close but at around 48/6000 RPM depending on displacement, the ports shut dowm. I built a 294 blown engine for Ron Horrell to replace the 296 engine I build 15 years ago. Using a Magnason /Eaton blower his engine produced 235 HP ay 4500 red line. With 5 lbs of boost. It also produced 300 ft /lbs or torque at 3000 rpm with 3 pounds of boost. I would suggest that if anyone makes a new block he work on the intake port allot. Must get rid of the bowl.
A garden hose will only pass so much water, with mother nature pushing on it.
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Old 11-30-2019, 05:17 PM   #18
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

the engine in our dragster is 276, 4/71 blower at 13 lbs ,home made heads ,has run 9.3 at 141 mph , with the weight of the dragster we think about 350hp.
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Old 11-30-2019, 05:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

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the engine in our dragster is 276, 4/71 blower at 13 lbs ,home made heads ,has run 9.3 at 141 mph , with the weight of the dragster we think about 350hp.
Lawrie
Lawrie all of the supercharged street Flatheads i build easily see 300 HP at the 276 cubes using modern ideas. Im sure your numbers are pretty accurate possibly maybe a touch conservative. One question would you know the elevation your running the rail at? As you know that makes a difference due to the thin air at higher elevations which will also effect economy but allows for using lower octane gas.
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First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

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Originally Posted by frnkeore View Post
Thank you, very much, Ted. Are those dyno results posted somewhere on your web site?

If not, could you give general specs for a 150 HP and a 200 hp build? Such as, cubic inch, approx C/R, cam and carburation?


Because the Eaton Balancing website concentrates heavily on the Ford Y-Block builds, other engine builds are not posted on that site. I can see why there's not a lot of engine dyno information out there for the Ford Flat head V8 engines. They are not the easiest engine to get hooked up to an engine dyno so many of the dyno shops out there will not set up for them.


The 450 HP supercharged Flathead was on nitro methane and serious boost. That one made everyone's eyes water as it was running zoomies and the shop was getting a full blast of burnt nitro fuel. It was a solid 9 second runner in the quarter mile.


The 200+HP normally aspirated Flathead was a Bonneville engine that was just breaking the 200 HP mark at 203-205 HP. That particular engine was 294 cubic inches at 10.1:1 compression ratio and was running on 110 octane racing gasoline with a Hogan's sheet metal intake manifold and a pair of 390 cfm 4V Holley carbs. Camshaft was a Potvin 425. The piston design required that the Offenhauser heads be machined accordingly for piston clearance in the cylinder heads. The combustion chamber cc's are 73.6 while the piston domes are 25 cc's. Exhaust header design was also critical on that particular engine. Without looking it up, I vaguely remember it running at 24° total timing for the best horsepower numbers. Tried to post pictures of the pistons and combustion chambers but this site asks for URL links which I don't have.


I'd have to look at the build details for the 150 HP version for the Flattie but remember it having Edelbrock heads, Offenhauser two deuce intake with new Speedway carbs, the small Isky camshaft, and Fenton cast iron headers. Final cubic inch on that one escapes me right now. Compression ratio on that one was for pump gas premium and idled nicely. Higher horsepower versions than this one have been done but those get ragged for running as everyday street engines without a large gain in horsepower. Ted Eaton.
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:24 PM   #21
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Ronnie ,our strip is at or very near sea level as we are right on the coast.look up Benaraby raceway on google maps.
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Old 12-01-2019, 07:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Ted, regarding pictures.

Either click "Post Reply" or the "Go Advanced" icon, then near the bottom of the page, there will be a tab that says "Manage Attachments", click that a box opens with Browse buttons, click Browse and it take you to your hard drive. Click the picture you want, then upload, then "ok" and it will be attached to the reply.

Do you remember the HP, peak rpm for the 425 Potvin?
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Old 12-01-2019, 07:14 PM   #23
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Ted - Thank you for the interesting information. If you ever run across it, could you post the displacement of the 150 HP engine? It would be interesting to know.
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Old 12-01-2019, 07:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Frank. Thanks for the tip on the picture posting. When I get a chance, I'll go through the dyno computer and dig up the peak HP and rpm numbers.


tubman. I looked up the 150 HP Flattie and it was 276 cubic inches. It actually made just a bit more than 150 HP.


Here are the pictures of the piston and combustion chambers in the 200+HP Flat head. Ted Eaton.
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File Type: jpg 1e flathead piston.jpg (76.2 KB, 157 views)
File Type: jpg 1e flathead cylinder head.jpg (277.0 KB, 156 views)

Last edited by TedEaton; 12-01-2019 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Added text
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Now that I can now post pictures, here's a shot of the 150 HP Flathead when it was on the dyno. Ted Eaton.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:18 PM   #26
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Thank you for the information and pictures. Very nice! Looks like some serious work on the 200 HP unit with the pistons out of the holes and heads counterbored to suit with good quench distances. Like the relief on the piston's inlet side as well. Well done!
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:19 PM   #27
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

By using a home made doming tool I put a set od 3 3/4 stroke pistons on a 4" crank. I only had to "Bore the heads" about .070" for th proper cyl tp piston clearance. Brought the CR over 9:1 and still have a good transfer area. Ya gota experiment with these little engines, that's the fun of it.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:31 PM   #29
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Ya' know, Ron- I wondered if maybe you had done this before at some time. Not surprising! I am sure impressed with your way of thinking.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Thanks for filling the displacement in. May I indulge you some more and ask what a "small Isky cam" is? MAX-1? I ask you as it is quite similar to my last build.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:03 PM   #31
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

“I doubt that anyone has reached the 200 hp mark with a normally aspirated flathead using regular gas (91/93 oct). The reason I say this is, the ports wont pass enough air. They come close but at around 48/6000 RPM depending on displacement, the ports shut down.”

Regarding the first part of your statement, It has been done so many times, there is no way to count them. Not so much any more though because few are willing to put the kind of money into a flathead that is required for that hp.
I can think of more than 40 engines I saw run in person that made over 300 hp on gas naturally aspirated. Most of them back in the 50’s. Many were driven on the street also. The street gas called “ethyl” was close to 100 octane back then but many ran “regular” on the street which was about 90. This was done simply by retarding the spark 5 degrees. Many of these engines were driven to the various tracks, both circle and drag, on gas, changed the carb tops and ran alcohol to race, changed back to gas to drive home.

Regarding the second part of your statement, The ports WILL pass enough air if they are hogged out enough. This means the walls have to be a maximum of
.090 ALL THE WAY THROUGH. For a stock port configuration flathead, bigger is better. Forget the fancy contours. I have built a 352 ci flathead engine, a 340 ci, and several 321 ci ones and they all made over 1 hp per ci. naturally aspirated and without chemically enhanced fuel.

I might mention also that, flat top pistons with matching combustion chamber have ALWAYS shown more hp than any shape of popup pistons in a flathead engine. This was discovered in the late 40’s by 2 guys. Smokey and Speedy.

This engine was first built in the mid 70's and made 328 hp on av gas. It was wet sump back then.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:36 PM   #32
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

would love to know the results of the dyno work done by my Dad back in the V12 program at Duke
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:43 AM   #33
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

There has never been a gas burning Flathead which could make within 100 horsepower of 328 on my dyno. It is fair to say there can be significant differences from one dyno number to another and neither of them accurate except within itself. That is why I went to great lengths, in my book, to expound the fallacy of announcing horsepower numbers. The important thing when using any test device is to have repeatable results so that the value of changes can be properly evaluated. And, for that purpose most properly operated dynos can do a good job.
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:36 AM   #34
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Pete, those are some wild numbers. and I'd like to know what was in those engines. Present day over head engines have been blessed with after market cylinder heads to increase hp and they rely on better breathing to do so. Having had several Flow benched and a Dyno, I could never figure out how to do it, still don't, stupid factor to high I guess. However, the minute you install a blower on a Flathead, it sure makes power.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:23 PM   #35
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Maybe I can help a bit with some numbers. The following info is from the ride in my signature below here. Also placed 2 shots below!

My very good friend Ron House, owner of this ride, a '50 Merc convertible, recently passed away. I first met him when I belonged to the Ford/Merc club in my avatar! He was the president of the club at the time, probably around 1975?

At the time we did the dyno testing back in August 2010 Ronnie hadn't recieved his tri-power setup yet from Clive at Stromberg but wanted to get the ride going. I wasn't aware who Clive was back then or that he was connected to the Stromberg carb company! So he decided to supply us with an Offenhauser 4-brl intake and a Holley 390 CFM carb for the test. The build dynoed at 154+ HP @ 4300 and 264# Torque @ 2200 at the flywheel.

After having the ride and enjoying it for a couple months he finally received the intake/carb setup and had his guy install it and set it all up. Up to that point he was extremely happy with the power and couldn't believe how the ride felt? He was an excellent judge of power and although this was just his own estimate he felt as though he had picked up about another 15/20 HP from the new tri-power carb setup! Remember, this just being an estimate, if correct, this would have put him around 170/175 HP. And down the road from these gains there was still a bit more to come thanks to Clive once again. Ronnie had Clive build him another center carb, a bit larger, and Ronnie said he again felt the difference in power, although not quite the same amount, but still more.

Over the years all the N/A Flatheads we've tested end up between 140 and 175 HP depending largely on the cubic-inch AND the other chosen components.

I will add this, just about every one had Ross pistons with some lighter ring packs, originally 1/16"-1/16"-3/16" and now today all get the metric rings, 1.5, 1.5, and 3.0 on the oil rings! All are "moly" top rings!

(Add) Ronnie couldn't praise Clive enough, they became very close over the past few years! I have all the info here on this build, every part we used and every "mod" we did!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Just a little side note connected to this story. This all began with another of Ronnie's friends (Ray) around mid 2009 initially asking me to build Ronnie's Flathead, I told him I just couldn't fit in any Flatheads at that time, I believed that was the end of the story at least for me doing Ronnies build! Well, low and behold I get a phone call in October 2009 from Ronnie. He was at Kennedy Airport and was coming by just to say "hello". He had just flown in from California, rented a ride at the airport, and wanted to stop by. Had no clue what was coming?? He informed me he wanted us to do the build for certain, one way or another. He explained he had flown out to another (major) builder on the west coast to see about his build, was totally "turned-off" after a rather lengthy discussion with them. He didn't really say why, only that they would never build him a Flathead, period. The rest is now history and the ride has over 40,000 miles on at this stage! Have no idea what will become of the ride now, it's all up to his family??
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:40 PM   #36
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Ah yes, 'tis the season for bench racing! Let's keep it coming; NOT to put each other down, but to share ideas, compare notes! Discussions like this are educational, especially for us onlookers.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:49 PM   #37
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Over the years I have told pretty much told what goes into one of my engines, but not everything at once.
Most people are still living in the distant past when they think about flathead engines.
How many people are willing to spend 40K on an engine just to beat a buddy that spent 35K?
How many people have ever seen a flathead cam with .520 lift and a max. acelleration of .013?
How many have seen 2 ring gas ported flat top pistons. How about a dry sump oil system?
Full radius valve seats?? Oh, did I mention injectors with 1.875 butterflies?
They haven't banned titanium parts in vintage racing yet and we are hoping they don't.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:50 PM   #38
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Over the years I have told pretty much told what goes into one of my engines, but not everything at once.
Most people are still living in the distant past when they think about flathead engines.
How many people are willing to spend 40K on an engine just to beat a buddy that spent 35K? Looks like you're willing and able to go rather fast!
How many people have ever seen a flathead cam with .520 lift and a max. acelleration of .013?
How many have seen 2 ring gas ported flat top pistons. How about a dry sump oil system?
Full radius valve seats?? Oh, did I mention injectors with 1.875 butterflies?
They haven't banned titanium parts in vintage racing yet and we are hoping they don't.

As has long been said: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" Looks like you're willing and able to go quite fast!
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:58 PM   #39
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You know when you read a thread and you realise that's just out of my league? I'm just glad to get one running at all.

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Old 12-02-2019, 06:00 PM   #40
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All it takes to make Horespower is air, and lots of it. I guess Pete found away.
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:11 PM   #41
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All it takes to make Horespower is air, and lots of it. I guess Pete found away.
I don't take credit for a lot of this stuff. There were a LOT of people before me that I had to learn from.
I only hope the ones I taught so far can develop the science further.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:23 PM   #42
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"And now we return you to our regular scheduled programming......"
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:17 PM   #43
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I don't take credit for a lot of this stuff. There were a LOT of people before me that I had to learn from.
I only hope the ones I taught so far can develop the science further.






Pete not to worry some of us are reading and listening and looking forward to gaining more HP. As well as passing this on to those who can continue developing what you and others have proven works. Its not easy to do and sure it may cost a lot but heck its one hell of a great way to have fun and go very fast with such an old piece of iron. Now wheres that catalog on dyno's i gotta get me one.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:28 PM   #44
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I don't want this to stop on a sour note. I trust Pete and his past accomplishments account for the power he makes from a Flathead. The fact that I and a few others haven't , is not his problem. My problem is: I can't get enough air into the block to do it. Take a few early engines for example. Back in the mid 60's we had the Ford 260 and 289. A stock HP260 made 240 hp and the 289 made 270. Gm's 283 made 275 with a 4 bl and 283 with FI Mos of these engines were running 9:1 Cr or less. How many cubic feet of air does it take to make one HP?? I can't find a definitive answer, so I'll take the lowest of 2 CF. so 200 hp requires 400 cfm. Allot of engines make alot of power on that kind of ail a 44o Chrisler has a 465 CFM carb And we cant het hallf that much air into a flathead with out a blower. Consider Fuel 87 ocy has more BTU of power in it than 110 race gas, and Alcohol has even less.. Now I may have some of these Facts wrong, but not by much. Did you know they make an old 350 chevy block, so you can bolt on the LS heads. Interesting. Remember it the journey not the destination.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:15 AM   #45
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I don't want this to stop on a sour note. I trust Pete and his past accomplishments account for the power he makes from a Flathead. The fact that I and a few others haven't , is not his problem. My problem is: I can't get enough air into the block to do it. Take a few early engines for example. Back in the mid 60's we had the Ford 260 and 289. A stock HP260 made 240 hp and the 289 made 270. Gm's 283 made 275 with a 4 bl and 283 with FI Mos of these engines were running 9:1 Cr or less. How many cubic feet of air does it take to make one HP?? I can't find a definitive answer, so I'll take the lowest of 2 CF. so 200 hp requires 400 cfm. Allot of engines make alot of power on that kind of ail a 44o Chrisler has a 465 CFM carb And we cant het hallf that much air into a flathead with out a blower. Consider Fuel 87 ocy has more BTU of power in it than 110 race gas, and Alcohol has even less.. Now I may have some of these Facts wrong, but not by much. Did you know they make an old 350 chevy block, so you can bolt on the LS heads. Interesting. Remember it the journey not the destination.
Not flathead related, but to your point of LS motors. My friend has a 6.2L from a junk yard that runs on E85. It has a cam change and some other cheap improvements, BUT it's got a massive turbo. I forget the boost number, but it's close to 20 lbs.

That motor makes 750 hp at the rear wheels tuning it from a laptop. Driving it (it's in a Mustang), it spun the rear wheels when planked at 70 mph.

The reason I mention it is the CFM and air aspect of making power.

The turbo adds another 250-300 HP to the overall numbers.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:39 AM   #46
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I like the photo Alanwoodieman posted of his dad in post #32 showing him measuring engine speed with a handheld gauge and the load scale in the background. Probably smoking a Camel or Lucky Strike.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:15 PM   #47
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A lot of really great info. I feel very lucky to read about the history of making more power from the flathead from those who actually did the work in the day and from those who continue to do so. Keep it coming for those who are new.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:51 AM   #48
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A lot of people were interested in this subject, wish we had better answers.
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:17 PM   #49
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Unfortunately, the only way that we can get answers is, with a dyno and then compare one build, against another, on the same dyno, to see where the last bit of HP comes from.

Dynamometers are the only tool that can tell the difference in one build vs another, that's why I asked this question. Everything else is subjective.
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:11 PM   #50
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Unfortunately, the only way that we can get answers is, with a dyno and then compare one build, against another, on the same dyno, to see where the last bit of HP comes from.

Dynamometers are the only tool that can tell the difference in one build vs another, that's why I asked this question. Everything else is subjective.
Whats needed is a competition run similar to the Engine Masters Competition. Builders square off following a set of rules who then build Flathead engines their way then all engines are tested at the same location and on the same dyno to see which engine comes out on top. After all engines have been tested the winning engine is taken apart for all to see exactly how it was done. I can see it now since it only takes me about 8 months to build a record setting combination i figure building for this type of competition would only take about 12 months.
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:54 PM   #51
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Unfortunately, the only way that we can get answers is, with a dyno and then compare one build, against another, on the same dyno, to see where the last bit of HP comes from.

Dynamometers are the only tool that can tell the difference in one build vs another, that's why I asked this question. Everything else is subjective.
A dyno is ONE way to get SOME answers but definitely not the last word.
Engine dyno comparisons are for TV shows.
Seldom you will find 2 vintage engines running at the same track on the same day that are worth comparing. There just are not that many around.

Lap times on a circle track or top speed and ET on a drag strip are far better ways to tune.

Picture this, you just spent 40K on a new engine that developed XXX hp on the dyno yet your buddy from down the road timed in 3 tenths faster than you and can pull you a car length on the straights. He has no more money or savvy than you do but he DOES have 2 weeks of on track tuning that you don't have.

Computer programs that calculate hp, ET and top speed etc are quite accurate
if you have good data to input.
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:09 PM   #52
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

Running the same engine with no changes on more than one dyno can produce some differing results.



R
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:46 PM   #53
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Racing has very limited, comparison value. Weight and chassis set up has more valve, in racing.

In road or oval racing, it is how fast you get out of a corner (both weight and chassis set up), that effects any speed on a straight section. In drag racing, it's weight and how fast you get hooked up and the overall gear ratio at the light.

Terminal speed, both in drag racing and road/circle track racing can give a idea of HP but, aerodynamics also play a big part, at speeds over 100 mph.

Racing has to many variables to do direct comparisons.

The EMC trials is the best way. It tests HP per CI, Average HP and Max torque and HP on the same dyno.
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:40 PM   #54
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An EMC engine would be a very poor racing engine.
They are built to do ONE thing very well.
I would put any of the top 5 World of Outlaws 410's up against an EMC engine.

Yes, racing has many variables and that is why it is a good way to compare engines.
You can see how they compare over the period of a season.
The best engine will almost always end up with the number 1 on the tail of the car.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:20 PM   #55
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Pete, I hate to disagree with you and maybe I should have said EMC type of testing.

Race cars work in a limited rpm range, usually 1500 to 2500 rpm. Are you trying to tell me a engine that has a high peak HP number is going to beat a engine that has a higher average HP, within that rpm range?

What I'm always interested in is HP per CI and average HP in the range that I have to work in. Average HP, has a lot more to do with cam selection.

Chassis set up can be much more important than HP. In drag racing, it takes a huge amount of extra HP to beat a car, if you can't get it hooked up and loose even a 1/2 sec off the line. It also takes a huge amount of extra HP to catch a car on the straight, if you come off the corner 10 mph slower. You can't compare those engines and the one with the higher HP ain't going to come in #1.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:48 PM   #56
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Pete, I hate to disagree with you and maybe I should have said EMC type of testing.

Race cars work in a limited rpm range, usually 1500 to 2500 rpm. Are you trying to tell me a engine that has a high peak HP number is going to beat a engine that has a higher average HP, within that rpm range?

What I'm always interested in is HP per CI and average HP in the range that I have to work in. Average HP, has a lot more to do with cam selection.

Chassis set up can be much more important than HP. In drag racing, it takes a huge amount of extra HP to beat a car, if you can't get it hooked up and loose even a 1/2 sec off the line. It also takes a huge amount of extra HP to catch a car on the straight, if you come off the corner 10 mph slower. You can't compare those engines and the one with the higher HP ain't going to come in #1.
Whatever you say.
I am not giving out customer information for the sake of a stupid internet discussion.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:23 AM   #57
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Do you remember the HP, peak rpm for the 425 Potvin?
Peak numbers were 203 HP at 5200 rpm, 256 lb/ft torque at 3200 rpm.


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Thanks for filling the displacement in. May I indulge you some more and ask what a "small Isky cam" is? MAX-1? I ask you as it is quite similar to my last build.
The camshaft was indeed the Isky MAX #1.


Ted Eaton.

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Old 12-06-2019, 10:03 AM   #58
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Thanks for getting back to us Ted. It's good to have some information for benchmarks.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:28 AM   #59
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That's a pretty mild cam, compared to say a 1007B or 400 jr, These cams I', familiar with in competition, However the best cam was an Erson D410 to bad that one is unavailable right now. Then we could consider the roller cams for the big buck people.. I'm impressed.
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Old 12-07-2019, 07:05 AM   #60
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Actually an EMC engine could be a VERY good racing engine. To discount the dyno developed engine flies in the face of ALL known engine shops from Nascar to Sprints, to Drags, to boats to planes. There is simply no other reasonable way to develop engine systems that work at the highest level.
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Old 12-08-2019, 02:49 AM   #61
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Actually an EMC engine could be a VERY good racing engine. To discount the dyno developed engine flies in the face of ALL known engine shops from Nascar to Sprints, to Drags, to boats to planes. There is simply no other reasonable way to develop engine systems that work at the highest level.
Boy is that a crock.
I think I previously said, the dyno comes first, BUT, final tuning ALWAYS comes at the track if you expect to win.
We had the fastest midget in the country for 3 years running in the late 50's and only the first of the 3 engines ever saw a dyno. We never blew one up either.

John, you know you are one of my best friends and you wrote a book about stock and street engines but I don't ever remember you telling me about your USAC circle track or Bonneville experience with flatheads. It is not even in the same galaxy.

Unless someone knows Speedy Spiers or did know Smokey Yunick, I doubt they
have a clue what goes into a real flathead race engine.
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:07 AM   #62
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Actually an EMC engine could be a VERY good racing engine. To discount the dyno developed engine flies in the face of ALL known engine shops from Nascar to Sprints, to Drags, to boats to planes. There is simply no other reasonable way to develop engine systems that work at the highest level.

Agreed. Look at what Ford did in the '60's with the comparatively primitive computerized dynos available then. To get their 427 durable enough to last 24 hours at Le Mans (and beat Ferrari) they came up with a dyno program that replicated a full lap around the circuit. They could duplicate the RPM's, the shift points, rates of acceleration and deceleration, etc. They would run an engine til it blew, then redesign the weak part and try again. Without this dyno testing, they may never have won!
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Old 12-08-2019, 09:19 AM   #63
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The only "crocs" around here stay pretty close to water. The final, at track, "tuning" of a competition engine amounts to very minor adjustments made to coordinate with current atmospheric conditions. In these cases the "at track" tuning is done to match the power standards established on the dyno. If the "at track" tuning improves the power beyond what the standardized numbers were at the dyno it can only mean the job was poorly done in the dyno room or the atmospheric conditions have changed to a point beyond the SAE standard correction factor. (a very unlikely occurrence)The dyno rooms are operating at full capacity in all the winners' shops.

As for Bonneville I think one of my Bonneville Flathead records remains viable although it is always just a matter of time before someone puts enough time and money into a project to break a record. However the Goldenrod record existed for nearly 50 years, so, who knows? As for USAC, there is more lap time influence provided by the chassis, tires, and driver than any engine tuning.

There was no mention of the Drag Race engines but the most powerful, refined, competition engines can be found at the drag strip. Too, it is the only form of racing which gives a good reading for determining the power of an engine. I have many trophies in both Flathead and non-Flathead classes but I do not see why that would be important to mention in this discussion??

Pete, I usually try to correct and inform you privately when your information is wrong or poorly expressed.

I am reminded of the quote I saw the other day that went something like "do not get too smart to learn". And, I would add, "or think". Yes, I know about the older I get the better I was.
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Old 12-08-2019, 12:35 PM   #64
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That's a pretty mild cam, compared to say a 1007B or 400 jr, These cams I', familiar with in competition, However the best cam was an Erson D410 to bad that one is unavailable right now. Then we could consider the roller cams for the big buck people.. I'm impressed.
What do you think of the 404? That's what i ran back in '54 and it was considered by many to be the top of the line. My current has a 400jr as the tappet bosses had so many holes there wan't room for the holes for the tappet guides. I have a Dyno print out from Panella's dyno in Stockton,CA and the best i could get was 193 at 4900. I can post the print out if you would care to see it?
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Old 12-08-2019, 01:18 PM   #65
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I won't speak for Ron but, I would love to see the print out.
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Old 12-08-2019, 02:11 PM   #66
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While I love these "dyno debates" - the challenge is that there is never one 100% correct answer. The only answer is "it depends" - as to the degree of applicability of a dyno (and type of dyno) as it applies to the best possible engine tune for any type of track. In many cases the amount of at-track tuning goes beyond just adjustments for weather or atmospheric conditions.

Example: On one of our road-race cars, even though we've spent many thousands of dollars on dyno time (full chassis dyno), we still spend quite a bit of time at the track dealing with things like acceleration pump tip-in and partial throttle condition tuning - depending on the track layout and how well we're coming out of specific corners (and Yes - this has a lot to do with chassis setup, tires, car designs, etc). The speed at which we can carry and come out of a corner has a lot to do with our top-speeds in the straight-aways and overall lap times. We can't effectively mimic these load and traction conditions on a dyno. The overall torque/HP curve information we get from dyno sessions is a valuable tuning aid . . . but there is a lot more we have to do at the track.

Now, with that said, it would not surprise me that some very sophisticated dyno operations can somehow input/utilize simulated true track conditions - and therefore can mimic a lot more actual track conditions. Obviously these types of dyno programs are FAR away from what 95% of racers could ever afford . . . they'd only be available to the totally highest end of the performance industry.

Okay - my 2 cents . . . now back to the never ending dyno debate! LOL
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Old 12-08-2019, 03:38 PM   #67
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What do you think of the 404? That's what i ran back in '54 and it was considered by many to be the top of the line. My current has a 400jr as the tappet bosses had so many holes there wan't room for the holes for the tappet guides. I have a Dyno print out from Panella's dyno in Stockton,CA and the best i could get was 193 at 4900. I can post the print out if you would care to see it?
The 404 is ancient technology. It was the best we had in the 50's though.
It has become a very popular street cam since lifters have become available in the last few years.
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Old 12-08-2019, 03:56 PM   #68
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In my case I never had a dyno to go to in the area we were running. I learned by what worked, I took suggestions from the more experienced racers, if and when they would share. I was lucky that I had a good friend and engine builder that allso built Danbury engines for others. He was from Upstate NY and ran several short tracks there. Mostly dirt. We;re talking late 50's early 60's. Yes I ran a 404 radius lifter cam, it didn't work for me or the car/driver chassis setup. We never found out why. Later i discovered that quite a few cars ran this cam for awhile but switched to other grinds, mostly the 400 jr.
After a few years of learning you find that some guys give you misleading information for their own benefit. When we changed drivers for the last time, we discovered that changing cams was not our problem, and all the horse power in the world won't help a poor handling car or an inept driver.

The best thing that ever happened to our car was the addition of Bob Counio to out team. He was a young engineer that worked for the bullard co as I did . One day I took him out to lunch and dropped of some parts an the garage where our car was. It was the first time he saw a stockcar up close. He turned out to be one of the best chassis man in NASCAR, even won the olympics BOB sled Gold for America for the first time. Just think, if I didn't take him to lunch, we'd never win the gold medal
When Danbury left Flatheads I left racing. but I never left Flatheads. I have one more story of a race bete\wen the 258 vs the 284. Later.
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Old 12-08-2019, 05:39 PM   #69
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In my case I never had a dyno to go to in the area we were running. I learned by what worked, I took suggestions from the more experienced racers, if and when they would share. I was lucky that I had a good friend and engine builder that allso built Danbury engines for others. He was from Upstate NY and ran several short tracks there. Mostly dirt. We;re talking late 50's early 60's. Yes I ran a 404 radius lifter cam, it didn't work for me or the car/driver chassis setup. We never found out why. Later i discovered that quite a few cars ran this cam for awhile but switched to other grinds, mostly the 400 jr.
After a few years of learning you find that some guys give you misleading information for their own benefit. When we changed drivers for the last time, we discovered that changing cams was not our problem, and all the horse power in the world won't help a poor handling car or an inept driver.

The best thing that ever happened to our car was the addition of Bob Counio to out team. He was a young engineer that worked for the bullard co as I did . One day I took him out to lunch and dropped of some parts an the garage where our car was. It was the first time he saw a stockcar up close. He turned out to be one of the best chassis man in NASCAR, even won the olympics BOB sled Gold for America for the first time. Just think, if I didn't take him to lunch, we'd never win the gold medal
When Danbury left Flatheads I left racing. but I never left Flatheads. I have one more story of a race bete\wen the 258 vs the 284. Later.



Ron I just talked to Bob Counio yesterday hes the proud owner of a Flathead I built. Getting ready to fire the monster up. Small world for sure. Hes now getting some of the modern era Flathead experience and knowledge.
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Old 12-08-2019, 06:35 PM   #70
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"As for USAC, there is more lap time influence provided by the chassis, tires, and driver than any engine tuning."
Very true for a B main car.

"There was no mention of the Drag Race engines but the most powerful, refined, competition engines can be found at the drag strip."
Powerful, yes. Refined, not so much. Naturally aspirated engines are more refined because they don't have the advantage of chemicals (most of the time) and a supercharger.

"I have many trophies in both Flathead and non-Flathead classes but I do not see why that would be important to mention in this discussion??"
It is highly important because it makes you qualified for this discussion.
I only have 2 trophys. One is a piece of paper that says I did 5 years of college. This incidentily was paid for by driving a sprint car for money, not trophys.
The other is a trophy for a national championship.

"Pete, I usually try to correct and inform you privately when your information is wrong or poorly expressed."
Yes, you did once and Ryan probably appreciated that.

And lastly, thanks for your insinuating quotes at the end of your posts. I always get a belly laugh from them.
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Old 12-09-2019, 12:34 AM   #71
Ol' Ron
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Default Re: Early V8 Dyno Work

I don't have any trophies . I;m glad Cunio is alive and working on a flathead, probably tires of hearing those nASCAR engines. He has a web site on setting uo a chassis, and i'm using it for the track "T" I'm building. Maybe Pete would drive it?? Just a 258 tho. Wish I could see better I'd like to drive it as well. I need a set of Wilcap disks for 37/48 spindles for a reasonable price, so I can stop it One thing everybody forgets, and thst's the guys that try every week to runas fast and better than the leaders, but nobody cares h who comes in second or third or???? we work just as hard, maybe harder, than the guy that wins.
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