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06-23-2019, 04:54 AM | #1 |
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H D truck engine sodium valves.
Hi guys! You guys always have great repys!
I have this 272 h.d. truck engine. It's been totally rebuilt with reconditioned heads. I'm having an oil burning issue, meaning it's going past the exhaust guides. There are no valve seals on the exhaust valves on this motor.anyone that's familiar with this particular engine knows the exhaust valves are sodium-filled and they are larger diameter stem. Does anyone know of what kind of umbrella valve stem seals I could use on these exhaust valves? I really don't want to take these heads off again and get them machine, it's too much of a job... Thanks! |
06-23-2019, 06:56 AM | #2 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
you dont by any chance have to much oil going to the top end.
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06-23-2019, 07:51 AM | #3 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Good reply! I'm going to have to pull the valve covers and take a look at that..that would probably be a first for these engines, you know they have lack of oil up top.
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06-23-2019, 08:25 AM | #4 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
The 272 in my car was "rebuilt" before I bought the car. It was using oil pretty rapidly and the right side exhaust was oily. I pulled the rocker covers and found a lot of oil coming from around the rockers on the right side. Turns out the shaft and rockers were worn and galled allowing too much oil to escape around them. New shaft and rockers brought the oil burning under control. I know you said that the rockers can't get too much oil with "tongue in cheek" but you can get enough up there to flood the valves.
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06-23-2019, 08:38 AM | #5 | |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Quote:
Is this engine in a pickup or heavier truck? If pickup, how did you decide to use? The 272 HD is a torque engine, meant for low RPM usage and low gearing. It is not rated for passenger car use. As for the seals, it was assembled with none on the EXH side. Low RPM usage would not really require them if the stems/guides are tight. TED EATON is going to be the best source if info by far (IMO). The FYB and LYB HD engines are a different animal. BTW - The INT VLV is 5.02" L and the stem dia. is .3402" STD size. The EXH VLV (1956 272HD) is 4.92" L and the stem dia. is.4345" STD size. The reduced stem length is to allow for the 6550 lash caps. Did the machine shop mention there being no seals when the heads came in? Exactly how much oil does it consume? Does it show on spark plug readings? My guess ... ... is as the valves absorb engine heat and the sodium liquefies, the resultant stem heat would ruin the seals quite quickly. OH! This era of sodium filled valve stems are known for the valve head separating from the stem in fairly high RPM usage. Please keep the board informed on this thread as to what you find.
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06-23-2019, 09:23 AM | #6 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
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06-23-2019, 09:24 AM | #7 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
What a great reply! This is a HD truck engine. And I know the exhaust valves don't come from the factory with Seals. I believe there is one model that does. I probably should have took it to a machine shop with a better understanding of these old heads. I don't know if they were familiar with the sodium valves,? anyways you gave me the answer I was looking for and I needed to know the valve stem diameter of the exhaust valves. When you get a rebuild kit they give you 16 umbrella seals assuming that you don't have oversized valve stems. Once again you guys on The Barn, always have great replies!
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06-23-2019, 09:29 AM | #8 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Forgot to answer a couple of your questions?
The plugs do not appear to be oil fouled. But, I did remove the headers and I could visibly see oil residue on the exhaust valves.. and I do have to put some makeup on oil in it. But, it's the blue smoke upon startup that is very discerning to me. Then you brought up another good point. With the sodium heating up in the exhaust valves you're absolutely right it could destroy the seals quite quickly. So, what am I supposed to do with this? |
06-23-2019, 10:03 AM | #9 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
The exhaust valve always has positive pressure on it when the valves open. The intake is subjected to low pressure so that's the one you generally have to worry about drawing oil in through the guides. Modern high temp elastomers like fluorosilicone can take a lot of heat but I don't know that you will need anything on the exhausts. Exhaust valves can get carboned up and stick but it depends on the clearance in the guide. The Lycoming aircraft engines use near 1/2" diameter sodium filled exhaust valves and they have to be checked every 300-hours on the helicopters. The check is for looseness but more often than not, they get carboned up and have to be reamed with a .501" reamer to get the stuff cleared out. You likely won't have to worry about this on a Y-block as long as your rockers are holding their mud like they should.
The weld process on sodium filled valves is generally pretty good but it might not be as strong on smaller stem types. Most valves have the heads welded on and have since Charles E. Thompson developed the process over 100 years ago. |
06-23-2019, 10:19 AM | #10 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Maybe I’m missing something but I have always installed seals on exhaust valves and really don’t know why. As rotorwrench states there is always positive pressure on the exhaust valve thus oil won’t be sucked down the stem into the cylinder like the intake valve. So can someone enlighten me why there are seals on exhaust valves.
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06-23-2019, 10:19 AM | #11 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
I don't have the specs at hand, but I would imagine that these sodium filled valves need extra guide clearance to handle all the extra heat carried up the stems under full load. The idea was to transfer heat from the valve head up the stem and into the guide, then into the water jacket. Remember, these HD 272 and 292 engines were built to run under full throttle full load conditions all day (so operating guide clearances would close up with all that heat). If you're just putt-putting around with light throttle, it may be normal to use some oil.
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06-23-2019, 10:30 AM | #12 | ||
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Quote:
Quote:
FORD used an 'oil deflector' up to about 1955 on the FYB AND LYB HD engines whereas any splash-over would be directed around the valve guides. Also check rocker arm to shaft clearances. Might be excessive clearance there allowing a greater oil supply to hit the guides. Coolant temp good? Correct spark plug heat range? If TED EATON can't answer it, you will just have to go with common sense. Maybe consider acquiring a set of pass car heads? Again, what year engine and what are you using it in?
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06-23-2019, 10:35 AM | #13 | |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Quote:
If it smokes @ startup, it is most likely loose guides and/or seals. It has to be realized the differences in the engine designs and why.
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06-23-2019, 11:10 AM | #14 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Coolant temperature is about 200. A little bit warmer than I would like. I'm running a 180 thermostat, with it electric fan. It does have oil deflectors on it. And I'm running the recommended autolite spark plugs. A lot of great thoughts you guys..
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06-23-2019, 01:40 PM | #15 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
If there is always pressure being present in the exhaust port how is oil consumption a factor from the exhaust valve and guide? I understand the intake as you have a vacuum that can pull oil into the cylinder due to a bad seal and or guide. I’m not arguing with anyone’s opinion just trying to find out why exhaust valves have seals.
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06-23-2019, 02:23 PM | #16 | |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Quote:
If the seal was not necessary, FORD surely would not use it.
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06-23-2019, 02:35 PM | #17 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
I appreciate everyone's opinions! And everyone taking the time to answer! And yes we're all getting too old! That's why I don't want to pull these heads off again it'll be the fourth time!
And remember most of all, do not take the wife to Subway!!!!! That's a guaranteed war.. |
06-23-2019, 03:00 PM | #18 | ||
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Quote:
Quote:
You haven't heard the all of it. Late one evening, the wife mentioned maybe my getting some pills to help with my sexual performance problem ... The next day after work, I came in and handed her a bottle of diet pills ... And then the fight started... She treats me like a red-headed stepchild ...
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06-23-2019, 05:08 PM | #19 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
1956 h.d. engine. It's in my
Rat rod... |
06-23-2019, 06:35 PM | #20 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
thanx!
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06-24-2019, 12:28 AM | #21 | |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Quote:
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06-24-2019, 12:28 PM | #22 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Hey guys, this is what I found out. The stem diameter of a sodium valve is 0.4 3 4 5. Egge machine has valve stem seals for this! So when I get them on I'll let you guys know..Love the barn....
Last edited by reddog565; 06-24-2019 at 12:36 PM. |
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06-24-2019, 12:35 PM | #23 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Sorry for the last sentence . Meant to say ,I'll let you guys know if it cured my problem.
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06-25-2019, 01:57 AM | #24 | |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
While early AM Carousing With My Browser ...
This is from the other forum- Quote:
He's the man and has the final say. Why the seals are not listed in the MPC I have no idea. But this info may be useful to someone one day. In addition and IMO ... ..., the heads were designed and intended for low RPM usage. They have smaller valves and are not power producers.
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06-25-2019, 03:33 AM | #25 | |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
- ADDENDUM - OK, Mr. Eaton says there are seals on the HD Engine sodium filled EXH valves. As usual, I begin wondering (as I do when staring at a lit match), there has to be something else going on here. So I pull out my SHOP MANUALS (1955 and 1957 - I have no 1956) and begin to cipher. Quote:
The 1957 SHOP MANUAL shows the EXH VLV seal in the ILL of the EXH VLV ASSY So, my contention is that FORD did not use EXH valve seals on the sodium filled valves until the 1957 model run. This is in no way to contradict Mr. Eaton. It explains why one year doesn't have them and another year has. The seals sourced from EGGE (excellent supplier BTW) must be for a 1957 HD engine and/or earlier retro-fit.
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DIAGNOSED CDO - (OCD In Correct Alphabetical Order) Last edited by KULTULZ; 06-25-2019 at 08:25 AM. Reason: ADD MISSED INFORMATION |
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06-25-2019, 04:52 AM | #26 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
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06-25-2019, 08:20 AM | #27 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Just realized ... ... why I couldn't find the EXH VLV seals in the MPC, the one I was looking through (1948-1956) only goes to 1956. The seals started in 1957.
Getting harder to find good help ...
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06-25-2019, 09:53 AM | #28 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Final thoughts for a while... I guess I should have checked with the barn before I had these heads rebuilt. I certainly would have done away with the sodium valve and probably would have taken it to a more old car machine shop...that's why the barn is so helpful, could have saved me a lot of aggravation.... Thanks to all you guys for your replies.
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06-25-2019, 11:24 AM | #29 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
most if not all these heads i had were rebuilt maybe the factory did put them on the rebuilders sure didnt.as i said i ran one of these in a car without a problem.
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09-29-2019, 06:10 PM | #30 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
OK ... follow up ...
In the 1954-55 FORD TRUCK SHOP MANUAL, PG 16, Table 1 will give what TRUCK ENGINES received EXH VLV seals. The 256 w/ sodium filled exhaust valves did not have seals. There are many differences between PASS CAR, TRUCK L/D and H/D FYB engines, all for a reason. I would show the chart but my scanner is still on the fritz. BASIC PN 6571 valve seal chart shown below -
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DIAGNOSED CDO - (OCD In Correct Alphabetical Order) Last edited by KULTULZ; 09-29-2019 at 06:22 PM. |
09-29-2019, 08:33 PM | #31 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
One thing to consider, Sodium is also highly reactive and will react violently with water. Kaboom!
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09-30-2019, 08:08 AM | #32 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Also, the sodium fill is very corrosive possibly leading to a valve failure.
Below is a TABLE from the 1956 FORD TRUCK SHOP MANUAL showing on what engine EXH VLV seals were and were not used -
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09-30-2019, 01:07 PM | #33 |
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Re: H D truck engine sodium valves.
Aircraft engines have been running them for a very long time on the exhausts. Oil and air cool these engines so they need good heat transfer to the valve guides. They use high chrome guides now days so that they will last an overhaul period. They do pretty well with the late guides. I've only seen one valve fail in the last 40 years and it was an intake valve. The reason it failed was that that particular engine had a loose fuel injector that was making it run lean with power. I ended up with it after a customer purchased the aircraft on one of those "Good Deal" purchases. It failed within 50-hours after he purchased it. I didn't get a chance to inspect it before he started flying it. So much for Good Deals.
We still inspect the exhaust valve guides every 300-hours on these engines but I think they could go a lot longer now than before they changed to the hardened steel valve guides. |
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