Comparison of Original and Halogen Bulbs

[MikeK]

In a recent thread LINK Mark Maron posted a picture of his new uber-spendy 6V halogen lamps from Classic Vintage Bulb. SteveB31 from Berts also posted a link to their 6V halogen. I put together three pictures:

Here's what I see-
1) Neither halogen has the same filament shape or orientation.
2) One halogen will permit some light directly to the lens, one only permits reflected light to the lens.
3) One halogen bulb has the filament focal height of both the low and high closely grouped, one has them spaced far apart.
4) The center bulb could be brought to the original focus height if the lamp socket can be extended much farther forward- Can it???
5) The far left bulb was clearly designed for a purpose-engineered modern bi-focus reflector with a clear lens cover. Note the low beam reflector and different focal distances of the two filaments. Will it produce a usable beam pattern with the straight parabolic dish A reflector and Ford's purpose-engineered Twolite lens???

[Mike V. Florida]

Interesting.

[duffer]

We need more guys like you around here...great work...thanks.

[Kurt in NJ]

My camera won't do as good for pictures of a bulb ---this is classic and vintage 35/50 for 6V generator use

[Kurt in NJ]

I tried a different setup

[Pat Martone]

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MikeK,
Thank you for your great posting showing the physical differences between the original and after market halogen bulbs. Your illustrations are outstanding.
I provide my experience here just as an FYI; your results may vary.
I am running 12v and an alternator, and also have the latest made-to-ford print headlight reflectors that I got from Bratton's last summer.
I tried using the halogen bulb illustrated in your second photo, but could not focus the beam. Thinking that I must not know what I am doing since many people tout the great benefits of these halogen bulbs, I also had one of my club member's try to focus the beam in his fully instrumented Model A garage set-up for headlight alignment. Unfortunately, he also could not get a good focus, so I switched back to the original type bulb. Of course I was disappointed that I could not get these expensive halogen bulbs to function properly for me. I will say that I could not detect (with the naked eye) a significant (or any) brightness difference between the original type 12v 50/50 bulb and the halogen bulb.
I truly hope that others will have better results than I did.

[2manycars]

I had a halogen setup in my roadster for a while. The lights were very bright, but I could not get them to focus. The result was that while the countryside was well illuminated, the road was not, except near the car, and the oncoming traffic was blinded and annoyed. I replaced the setup with original re coated reflectors, and 50-50 bulbs, and the result was very satisfactory.
All modern "improvements" are not an improvement.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I like what Mike is saying and I would like to expound on the latter part of his #5 point. I think we would all agree there is a huge difference between the correct shaped reflector vs. incorrect aftermarket reflector, ...AND there is a huge difference between dull silvering, incorrect plating (chrome), and correct silver plating as far as light reflectivity is concerned. So, if the reflector is such a vital part of having adequate lighting, what does this mean as far as the light bulb is concerned?

Another question is if we use any of the light bulbs as shown above with a properly silver plated original reflector, is the reflector responsible for 50% of the total lighting output as seen 10' in front of the bulb, --or less percentage --or more percentage? My thoughts are more.


One other point that has always been explained to me is lumens (or candlepower as expressed in headlight bulb ratings) are the same measurement whether it be from an incandescent bulb or a halogen bulb. The difference with halogen bulbs are they produce more lumens than a 32/50 candlepower bulb. Therefore they ARE going to be brighter. Place the same candlepower incandescent bulb in place of the halogen and it will be the same brightness. That is why there is such a difference of opinion as to whether halogens are better. To some halogens are brighter so they feel they can see better while others place more emphasis on the reflector so they can see better.

[MikeK]

I've added the photo from Kurt. Although this 6V 35/50W lamp is touted as "generator operation", a pair will draw ~16amps on high beam. Add 3A for ignition and 2A for tails and you are well over the sustained running limit of 17A for an A genny. Got replacement smoke?

[Kurt in NJ]

I tried again for better pictures, and took out the 12+ year old 35/35 bulbs --they are 1- 5/16 pin to filament ---the focus point was very close to the Mazda bulbs I had before (I will look for them)

I have been thinking of setting up a headlight and trying different bulbs against an old 30s headlight aiming board that has a meter, it is the same machine that NJ state inspection used for many years ---it is becoming obvious that there are many different interpretations in making halogen replacement bulbs.

the 2 top left and center are better pic of the 35/50, the right and bottom left are my old 35/35

[Kevin in NJ]

You have to include one more parameter.

The relationship of the filament to the pins. I believe the filament has to be horizontal as part of how the system works.

[jrelliott]

Another reason Halogen bulbs appear brighter is they produce a wavelength of light that is closer to blue than incadescent bulbs

[msmaron]

For those that did not see the candle power in my last post...also should be noted these bulbs are the EXACT same price as Berts, Brattons, and all the rest. They all have shipping attached to them. The difference is that these are 60/55

2w=3cp
6w=6cp
10w=-15cp
16w=21cp
25w=32cp
35w=50cp

so 60w=82cp if i am correct....

[msmaron]

Mike the comparison is outstanding..But you state what you "SEE"...do you have an opinion based on comparison?
I have not installed them as of yet or attempted to focus them, that will be the real test but was wondering your "opinion" on what you have seen by comparison.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Another question is if we use any of the light bulbs as shown above with a properly silver plated original reflector, is the reflector responsible for 50% of the total lighting output as seen 10' in front of the bulb, --or less percentage --or more percentage? My thoughts are more.

Here's one way to figure the %. Refer to the diagram below.

Measure the distance from the filament to the edge of the reflector. This is the RADIUS.
Measure the angle from the center line @focal point to the reflector edge. This is THETA.
Compute the surface area of the sphere of total photon emission, outlined by the red circle. A = 4pi x r x r
Compute the surface area of the cone of unreflected photon emission, shown in yellow. A = 2pi x r x r (1- cosine theta)
Use the two areas to calculate either the direct or reflected %. (simple arithmetic!)

Side note here:
1) Not all of the light that flares through the lens (blue) without parallel reflection is bad! All of the scatter light below the centerline is useful road illumination. You may consider using 1/2 the area of the unreflected cone of emission when figuring % of useful light.

2) The 60/55W lamps with the BLOCKED forward emission eliminates much of the unfocused forward scatter, but does not reflect that light back to the reflector. The black top converts visible photons to heat. Is this good or bad? You eliminate the annoying upward scatter that illuminates trees, but you also lose the useful down-scatter that illuminates ground close to the vehicle. On a positive note, there will be less glare to oncoming traffic. The low beam filament internal reflector will bias which section of the Twolite lens receives the most light. Result unknown without field test comparisons.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Thanks for sharing -- very well illustrated.

Appears down range focusing on a distant wall, (as indicated in the "Model A Owner's Manual"), would give a very detailed analysis of what one could expect from each bulb indicated using an original Ford silver plated headlight reflector.

Then, if one wanted to get a bit more technical, to document metered light intensity, one could maybe borrow a light meter from an electrical engineer or sports lighting contractor who is hired to re-direct lights on football & baseball fields.

Analysis appears similar to one fine tuning & adjusting the choke on a shotgun barrel with calipers & a fine stone hone; i.e., one never knows exactly what pattern one can expect until a target is provided downrange & one pulls the trigger.

Most interesting subject!

[P.S.]

Good point.

I happen to be an electrical engineer, and would be glad to make the comparisons and measurements.

Anyone want to donate a set of original 30-31 reflectors with lamps? I can swap my modified halogen reflectors out for the stock ones easily as I retained the bullet style connectors in the buckets. The test could be made on the same car with same electrical system etc. which would be much more accurate than 2 separate cars.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by MikeK

2) The 60/55W lamps with the BLOCKED forward emission eliminates much of the unfocused forward scatter, but does not reflect that light back to the reflector. The black top converts visible photons to heat. Is this good or bad? You eliminate the annoying upward scatter that illuminates trees, but you also lose the useful down-scatter that illuminates ground close to the vehicle. On a positive note, there will be less glare to oncoming traffic. The low beam filament internal reflector will bias which section of the Twolite lens receives the most light. Result unknown without field test comparisons.

Basically if i read what you are saying is that This bulb in particular will NOT focus the ford way due to the "Blocked" Shield on the bulb and will have a tendency to give me more UP ward, side and downward light.. All of course subject to change until i test them

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

You have to include one more parameter.

The relationship of the filament to the pins. I believe the filament has to be horizontal as part of how the system works.

Good point. One that I did not want to address, but. . .
A paraboilc reflector has a single infinitely small focal POINT. Any filament will have physical dimension, larger than a point. The farther from that point, the greater the reflected deviation from parallel. The original lamps had the filament in a "V" shape to keep them as compact as possible and close to the ideal focal POINT.

The axis of filament deviation from the focal point (orientation and shape of the filament) will produce a specific summary set of off-axis photons. The Twolite lens was designed with multiple sub-lenses or lensettes to maximize refocus to the desired road pattern using the original filament shapes. Of note here, the tiny vertical separation distance between the Hi & Lo filaments of an original bulb will bias the deviation from parallel reflection slightly up/down.

As to whether a vertical, horizontal, or axially linear (straight forward, like the 55/60W) filament will produce a better or worse road pattern through the Twolite lens can only be determined by ray-trace geometry or field test.

To add insult to injury, NOT ALL TWOLITE LENSES FOCUS THE SAME. There was a barely perceptible change in some of the lens elements as Ford went from 21/21cp. to brighter bulbs in later years. I'm sure some of this change was to further refine the road pattern, too. The J.S. DO NOT address correctness of lenses in this way. Here are some pix from my lens collection to illustrate the point. ALL FOUR of the pictures have a different center element as well as other changes:

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by msmaron

Basically if i read what you are saying is that This bulb in particular will NOT focus the ford way due to the "Blocked" Shield on the bulb and will have a tendency to give me more UP ward, side and downward light.. All of course subject to change until i test them

Just the opposite. You are blocking direct off-axis flare emission. You may be very happy. I make no assumptions. (Been there, done that!)

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by MikeK

ALL FOUR of the pictures have a different center element as well as other changes:

Are you also saying the center element plays a role in how the light is reflected outward....based on the candle power of the bulb??

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'm finally begining to see the light!

I'm keeping my original lights.

[P.S.]

C'mon, guys. Put up, or shut up- https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showpo...8&postcount=18

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by P.S.

C'mon, guys. Put up, or shut up- https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showpo...8&postcount=18

I admire your enthusiasm, but are you interested in just an observed opinion or a true evaluation? I've seen tons of online photos touting the great light output and pattern of aftermarket lights for cars. Also photos of how great some LED flashlights are compared to others, but it is all subjective, qualitative, and uncontrolled.

For this to be a valid analysis you will need to further define the conditions and method. A few simple preliminary Q's-

Will the collected data be quantitative or qualitative? If it is not quan, it will be dismissed by observers as opinion.

What will be used to establish a 'control' or standardized baseline identical to a properly focused and aimed pair of OEM headlights on a test target? Will that 'ideal' light pattern be the one established by Ford in '29, or a later, more modern light pattern. Or both? Each has some debatable validity.

When lamps are tested how will they be focused? Parallel output from the reflector only, then the lens is attached, or for best attainable pattern with a lens in place? What parameters define 'best attainable' without introducing subjection? Will the sockets/reflectors be modified to permit attaining halogen lamp focus if it cannot occur with the stock setup? (This could be a useful 'how to' mod for halogens.)

How will the "on target and on ideal pattern" light be measured, both in total, and in intensity at numerous points on the desired control pattern? Will view-able photographs be produced that are free of camera auto-exposure compensation and corrected for human spectral response. Halogens give off a lot of IR that a camera 'sees' and shows in photos, but humans will not see. Will high/low spectral cutoff filters be used to compensate and correct the photos?

How will off axis light be measured, and in what pattern? Will evaluation and analysis of the pattern weigh bad off-axis light(into oncoming traffic) and good (side of road and down) light differently?

What certified instrumentation will be used to quantify the light measurements, and at how many target points? 1000? 100,000? Will it produce a spectral analysis, and will that spectrum be normalized for human response? A gigawatt/sq m of UV or IR photons will knock the needle off a light meter, but a human will see nothing.

How will ambient and retro-reflected light be factored out?

What will standardize the supply voltage to the bulbs? A one-wire regulator? Other?

Other points. . . ? ? Outside variables to account for . . . ?

BOTTOM LINE- None of the above really matters. What an individual sees and perceives is what counts!! Unfortunately, to prove what you see, the above need to be addressed. Engineering. Gotta love it.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by MikeK

BOTTOM LINE- None of the above really matters. What an individual sees and perceives is what counts!! Unfortunately, to prove what you see, the above need to be addressed. Engineering. Gotta love it.

I "think" the test he wants to do is simple....Put in the halogens and drive, take out the halogens and put in standard bulbs and drive....PERIOD Done.. what is brighter...
PS...am i right or wrong here???

[Pat Martone]

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Mark,
I did just that; drove with each night and could "see" much better with the original style bulbs, compared to the halogens.
This was a surprising and disappointing discovery for me.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Pat Martone

Mark,
I did just that; drove with each night and could "see" much better with the original style bulbs, compared to the halogens.
This was a surprising and disappointing discovery for me.

Pat... big surprise and for me the halogens i got from Brattons were much more bright than the 50/35 standard bulbs...very interesting...

[Kirby1374]

Originally Posted by msmaron

Pat... big surprise and for me the halogens i got from Brattons were much more bright than the 50/35 standard bulbs...very interesting...

yet another variable; brightness vs. visability. Or is this what this whole thread has turned into?

[TudooR31]

My brain is pulsating with all this information! Thanks!

With the mentioning of silvering the reflector is better than chrome...
could I glue strips of aluminum foil (shiny side up) into an old reflector and burnish with a spoon to get the desired silvering effect?

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Kirby1374

yet another variable; brightness vs. visability. Or is this what this whole thread has turned into?

I should amend my post to say that not only were the halogens brighter but also very very good visibility

[Pat Martone]

Mark,
I am pleased to hear of your success using halogen bulbs!
Perhaps yours are of a better design than mine; I got mine from one of the local suppliers last summer, at a cost of about $26 each. I recall yours came from Australia.
My experience was that even if I could concede that the halogens are brighter, my traditional (although 12v) bulbs are preferable to me because they focus and place the light where I want it, and this is exactly where the Ford alignment instructions indicate it should be, which lights the area I want without disturbing others. Both a local Model A expert friend (who has the proper headlight alignment set-up in his amazing Model A garage) and myself individually, and together, could not focus the halogens, but nevertheless I tried using them at night for one or two nights and had to switch back to the traditional bulbs because I preferred the ability to focus and direct the light, which I could only do with traditional bulbs. No matter where we placed (adjusted) the headlight focus screws, we just could not focus the beam, but we could focus it very nicely with the traditional bulbs. To me, the halogen bulbs "threw" light everywhere which included irritating oncoming drivers. Simply, I can "see" better with the traditional bulbs, but again I hope that other people will have more success than I. My situation must be unique because I have read too many positive comments on halogen bulbs.
I will add that I use 12 volts, an alternator, the new Bratton's made-to-original-Ford-print headlight reflectors, and LED tail lights (which I think save more power (amps) for the headlights).

[TerryH]

I also agree with the above....it appears that almost everyone has a different take or result on this, but it boils down to what works best for you. I also started out with stock headlights, even put the higher candle power bulbs in, helped some, but I was also much happier with quartz halogen. I bought one of the kits from either Brattons or Snyders several years ago and had a local Model A mechanic install for me. He said it did take some time for him to focus them correctly, but they sure light up the road for me...both in terms of where the light is and the brightness of it. And mine are 6v with an alternator. Just my results, but I am not going back...............

[Pat Martone]

TerryH,
So, you're onto something that I haven't considered.
We've been speaking for the most part about using the existing reflector with the direct replacement halogen bulb with no modifications required, but you indicated that you have a "kit".
Is your kit just the Snyder's "Quartz Adapter Kit" ($50) which includes the bulbs and sockets but requires you to modify your existing reflectors, or is your kit the Snyder's "Quartz Adapter Kit" ($100) that also includes the 2 reflectors?
Which kit works better?
Is the kit that comes with the reflectors the proper parabolic shape/profile and are they chrome or aluminum coated; for only $50 more to include 2 reflectors I can't imagine they are very good reflectors, but I guess it beats "butchering" your existing reflectors.
I also wonder if either kit is really designed to be used with the Ford two-lite headlamp lens?
So I wonder if either of the two Quartz halogen kits are better than using halogen bulbs designed to fit the existing bulb sockets in high quality original Ford type reflectors?

[msmaron]

fascinating great discussion. YES what works for one may not for the other,. i was using the 50/32 standard bulbs from Brattons, and I was able to focus and found that they are GREAT. BUT i drive a lot at night and in areas that are not lit at all, I switched to the halogen bratton bulb and yes it lit up the street and i was able to "see" much better and in turn was safer for me.. NOW I have not tried the German bulb yet from AU.. I will report back when they are in..just a Bit cold here right now...thanks all

[P.S.]

Mike, Mark, Pat, etc.:

I hadn't really given it extensive thought, as these are just lights. The plan was to establish a "calibration point", that is, having the actual car at an established point and marking the location at both a long road and in front of a vertical barrier. Was thinking it would be best to use a power supply to run the car electrical system so a voltage standard can be set. Let's say, 7.0 volts or so. As long as the voltage at the lights can be measured accurately and make it repeatable. Then, suppose I would make measurements and take photos with both types of lights and compare the data. None of this would be "subjective" as that is a real pet peeve of mine (engineer minds are wired differently).

Lumens are easily measured, but from what exact point to take the measurement is the question Mike brought up as part of his extensive post. For that, I suppose the areas which one would wish to see are the most important with oncoming drivers being secondary and everything else tertiary.

But, one thing I have learned in my short time here on the Fordbarn forum is that there are hundreds of people willing to post their thoughts on a subject, and even debate a subject, all without a shred of a care for uncovering actual facts. I'm 99.9% sure that nobody is going to send a set of stock lights to compare for this experiment, so all of this is most likely moot.

It's been so long since seeing at night with Model A stock headlights, I totally forgot why I chose to stay with halogens. I do remember being able to see "more" with halogens and do remember the lights illuminating objects farther out, but any more than that without actual measurements borders on becoming subjective.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by P.S.

Mike, Mark, Pat, etc.:

I do remember being able to see "more" with halogens and do remember the lights illuminating objects farther out, but any more than that without actual measurements borders on becoming subjective.

That is the key. Able to see more. Those of us that drive daily at night consider this very important. Thanks again

[columbiA]

I use 32-32 stock bulbs with repop chrome reflectors & lenses with 6V gen with regulator in cut-out can & have good lites for 50 mph driving.Also have soldered connections & good grounds.For me,there is no need for "improvements" in lighting.

[jegbflat]

Yes, I'm very late to the party - don't know if any of you are still online at Ford Barn, but thought I'd take a chance. Your discussion was obviously very technical and especially so for me - first time car project. I'm making Grandpa's ole' '36 Chevy pickup into a RestoMod. I have all original parts for headlights, including moderately oxidized reflectors. I want to run turn signals inside bucket (my reflectors have 2 holes). Technical and engineering info aside, I would greatly appreciate just a little advice on which of the following routes to go (or is there other alternative?). This will not be a daily driver, nor a show quality truck. Limited use in parades, local car shows, probably very little night driving. Given that, my limited research says: 1) resilver my reflectors ($350) and replace bulbs with 12v OR 2) purchase new kit containing reflectors, gaskets, bulbs (standard), sockets & wiring ($130) OR 3) purchase new quartz kit just like 2) except with quartz halogen bulbs ($110) OR ?? Thank you for you insight.... jg

[RonC]

Any tests should be made with Brattons reflectors as they are the best available and possibly better than originals as they don't tarnish. Also NOS HEADLIGHT BULBS must be used. I don't believe the repro original style bulbs are true headlight bulbs. Real headlight bulbs can be focused better and have a better light pattern.

[dean from bozeman]

Mike K., this is awesome work. Thanks.

To "focus" a bulb we need to bring the filament to the focal point of the parabolic reflector. In Mike's photos the gray arrow shows this distance from the bulb's pins. (The original-type bulb shows where the focal point is). When a bulb's filament is at the focus, light will rebound off the reflector and the rays will be parallel and point forward. This is the "useable" light for driving. The headlight lens will help diffuse some of the light to the surrounding area but most of the light will be "useable".

Any bulb that has a filament not on the focal point will send the light in scattered directions (not useable and can be a hinderance for oncoming traffic). As several of you found out, the original equipment is as good, if not better, than a brighter unfocused halogen.

I've got a great photo to explain this but am unable to insert it. Ugh.

A good experiment would be to duplicate the set up found on page 35 in the Model A owner's manual. If any has photos similar to those on page 35, please post them. That would be the defining test.

[Kevin in NJ]

This all took place in 2013.

The question is what is on the market today????

I have heard CVB bulbs have changed.

[old31]

Kevin, good point.

6 months ago I bought halogens from one of the venders and returned them. I ended up using 35/50's and thought that they gave a better light than the halogens, and that is at a fraction of the cost. I am running a 6 volt system.

My recommendation is not to spend the money on halogens.

[RawhideKid]

Originally Posted by jegbflat

Yes, I'm very late to the party - don't know if any of you are still online at Ford Barn, but thought I'd take a chance. Your discussion was obviously very technical and especially so for me - first time car project. I'm making Grandpa's ole' '36 Chevy pickup into a RestoMod. I have all original parts for headlights, including moderately oxidized reflectors. I want to run turn signals inside bucket (my reflectors have 2 holes). Technical and engineering info aside, I would greatly appreciate just a little advice on which of the following routes to go (or is there other alternative?). This will not be a daily driver, nor a show quality truck. Limited use in parades, local car shows, probably very little night driving. Given that, my limited research says: 1) resilver my reflectors ($350) and replace bulbs with 12v OR 2) purchase new kit containing reflectors, gaskets, bulbs (standard), sockets & wiring ($130) OR 3) purchase new quartz kit just like 2) except with quartz halogen bulbs ($110) OR ?? Thank you for you insight.... jg

Since I am not sure about the size of the headlights you are using, I would suggest that if you have made this a 12v-ground car with the 9004/9007 halogen socket to use something from here http://www.jdmastar.com/product/318/...-Set-of-2.html.
I have this in a Model A bucket with one of the aftermarket replacement bucket and these are very focusable and bright. If you want to see, PM me with an email address and I will send you a video. Oh, did I mention, they only draw a TOTAL of 5amps together in High beam?

[msmaron]

welcome to yes an old but great thread. I have changed my lights and bulbs totally now, I do NOT use Halogens at all, I use a different setup that allows me to us BOTH FILAMENTS in the bulb at one time. The brightness is greater than the halogens and at 1.00 a bulb well worth it. It involves some changes in wiring but I DID It and anyone can....more later...

[1930 coupe]

In post # 19 Mike points out different lens designs. Is there any information on when each design was used?