Play in water pump shaft

[bigd1101]

Hi guys, the water pump on the 28 has about a 1/2 in of play when running. The shaft slides back and forth and makes a clicking sound as it turns. Is this normal?

[WHN]

That’s one of the reasons we replaced our orginal pump with a leakless. 25 years of trouble free driving, no leaks or drips. Inside of engine compartment stays clean. Enjoy.

[Ray in La Mesa]

No, it's not normal. End play should only be a few thousands, you could loose the fan through the radiator if something breaks. Fix it or replace it.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

You can buy a lock collar from the venders, and that will keep it from moving backwards. If the pump moves too far forwards, then you’ll need to rebuild or replace. They are easy to do.
The most work is probably getting it out of the car if all is stock.

[bigd1101]

It's got way too much play. I just ordered a new pump. Rumor has it I'll have to remove the radiator and shroud?

[bigd1101]

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Just read my Les Andrews repair book.......looks like I'm home free. I have the two blade fan! I just need to remove the hood and the radiator supports and tilt the radiator forward just enough to remove the old pump.......thank God. I did not want to remove the who deal that's for sure......

[darrylkmc]

Be sure to check the location on the Impeller on the shaft.

Many years ago l purchased a Leakless water pump kit, a couple years ago l decided to use it. The shaft moved back and forth quite a lot. I took it apart and compared the location of the impeller to an original, it was off by a large amount. Put it in my press and adjusted it correctly, it now has very little thrust. This impeller was Not pinned.

Darryl in Fairbanks

[bigd1101]

I just bought a stock water pump like the one on the car. I would assume they are all "leak-less" when new, LOL! I'm 66 and will drive the car a few hundred miles a year so the new pump should outlast me


Don

[Bob C]

With as much end play you have the stop in the head is probably worn so be
sure to install a collar on the new pump as it will probably have to much play also.


Bob

[WHN]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

I just bought a stock water pump like the one on the car. I would assume they are all "leak-less" when new, LOL! I'm 66 and will drive the car a few hundred miles a year so the new pump should outlast me


Don

There is a difference between leakless and orginal style water pumps.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

You can pick up a two piece shaft collar at most any hardware store. These can be installed without removing the water pump. Cheap fix.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Here is a photo.

[redmodelt]

The thrust washer between the impeller and casting may be gone adding to amount of end play.
The 2 piece might be ok except, there would be no way to install the plastic thrust washer between it and the bearing. the thrust washer keeps the metal to metal contact from happening.

[bigd1101]

Originally Posted by Bob C

With as much end play you have the stop in the head is probably worn so be
sure to install a collar on the new pump as it will probably have to much play also.


Bob

Bob, where does that collar actually go?

[bigd1101]

Originally Posted by WHN

There is a difference between leakless and orginal style water pumps.

And that would be?

[bigd1101]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

You can pick up a two piece shaft collar at most any hardware store. These can be installed without removing the water pump. Cheap fix.

So I would need two correct? Both on the exposed shaft at each end? Shouldn't effect the balance right?

[WHN]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

And that would be?

Take a look at Mac’s or another suppliers catalog. They will give you the benefits info, no packing, real bearings, greaseless front fitting or greaseless fittings. The leakless are about 25% more. I would recommend the leakless with the real rear grease fitting. Will help keep your engine compartment much cleaner.

Also, don’t forget to check your fan blade once it has been removed. Look for cracks, bends, rust, whatever. The suppliers offer a correct new aluminum fan that works great. You don’t want to lose a fan blade at speed. Makes a mess in you engine compartment and could do a number on the hood. I have been there. Enjoy.

[bigd1101]

I'll install the collar ring on the shaft and the directions say just behind the fan and you pull the shaft out before setting the collar just enough so a minute end play can be achieved. That should fix the shaft play problem when I install the new pump. Flushing the radiator out with vinegar too which I've done on a few old cars and trucks with good results. Some say to leave it over night after driving with it in, but I was always worried about what it would do to the head gasket seal. Any concern on that thought??


Don

[marty in Ohio]

bigd1101,
If you are going to pull the old water pump without removing the radiator, cut a piece of heavy cardboard to cover the engine side of the radiator. When the pump pops out it could puncture the core without the cardboard protector.
Marty

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

I'll install the collar ring on the shaft and the directions say just behind the fan and you pull the shaft out before setting the collar just enough so a minute end play can be achieved. That should fix the shaft play problem when I install the new pump. Flushing the radiator out with vinegar too which I've done on a few old cars and trucks with good results. Some say to leave it over night after driving with it in, but I was always worried about what it would do to the head gasket seal. Any concern on that thought??


Don

Hi Don, I did a couple of years off and on flushing rust using white vinegar and using thermoflush treatments by putting it my coolant and running it in my A. Left it in for a week driving it everyday. Then flushing/backflushing after every treatment. Have a newer leakless water pump, seems OK. Head gasket was bad before starting, but when head was removed, best I could tell the gasket damage occurred before treating. My experience, will not say others would not have issues. If concerned there are treatments like thermocure and others that are safe for all materials, only active on rust/scale.


Probably safest is to remove the Water pump, block the water pump block opening, treat separately, but I was lazy and did not want to do it this way.


If using running it in the A method, best to filter the upper radiator hose to keep stuff from the block blocking up the radiator. I've heard panty hose in the hose at the Motor block works great. I used a commercially available filter.


If concerned there are treatments like thermocure and others that are safe for all materials, only active on rust/scale. White vinegar works an and is inexpensive compared to products like thermocure.



Bigd1101 - In case you do not know, after the White Vinegar treatment, flush with baking soda/water to neutralize the remnants of vinegar.

[daren007]

The title of this thread made me think of something else.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

So I would need two correct? Both on the exposed shaft at each end? Shouldn't effect the balance right?

You only need one. put it on the end of the shaft that is nearest the fan. The fan will keep the shaft from moving toward the block and the collar will keep it from moving toward the radiator.

[bigd1101]

I contacted the previous owner of the A and he says and I quote " it is on with simulated studs, so you can take it off without taking the radiator off." I wasn't planning on taking the rad off anyway as a two blade fan doesn't require that, but what in the H are "simulated studs"?

[aermotor]

I would like to see some kind of C shaped spacer of different thickness, as needed, that be can be slipped over the worn stop on the head. Would something like this restore the head stop to the correct depth?

John

[bigd1101]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

You only need one. put it on the end of the shaft that is nearest the fan. The fan will keep the shaft from moving toward the block and the collar will keep it from moving toward the radiator.

So where do I get one? What size?

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Originally Posted by bigd1101

I contacted the previous owner of the A and he says and I quote " it is on with simulated studs, so you can take it off without taking the radiator off." I wasn't planning on taking the rad off anyway as a two blade fan doesn't require that, but what in the H are "simulated studs"?

Bolts that look like a stud with a nut. They sure help for clearance since no studs are sticking out.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by aermotor

I would like to see some kind of C shaped spacer of different thickness, as needed, that be can be slipped over the worn stop on the head. Would something like this restore the head stop to the correct depth?

John

You can buy the longer shaft, but I'd use the collar stop. Too bad Ford didn't have that.

[bigd1101]

OK.....the previous owner says.........

" The pump was originally held on by studs sticking out of the head and nuts on the front of the pump. You can't get the pump off without taking the radiator off because the studs are too long. The ones on that car are bolts that go on from the front of the pump. If you look at them the head is made to look like a stud and nut. Once you get them out there are no studs sticking out and there should be enough room to get the pump off."

Ingenious!

[bigd1101]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Bolts that look like a stud with a nut. They sure help for clearance since no studs are sticking out.

Yeah! I just posted the previous owners explanation.......how ingenious!

[bigd1101]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Bolts that look like a stud with a nut. They sure help for clearance since no studs are sticking out.

Tom.........
Will I need to still tip the radiator forward at the top after removing the hood or will the pump and the impeller lift out without doing all that?

[katy]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

I contacted the previous owner of the A and he says and I quote " it is on with simulated studs, so you can take it off without taking the radiator off." I wasn't planning on taking the rad off anyway as a two blade fan doesn't require that, but what in the H are "simulated studs"?

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/pump-mounting-kit

[bigd1101]

Originally Posted by katy

https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/pump-mounting-kit

Will I need to still tip the radiator forward at the top after removing the hood or will the pump and the impeller lift out without doing all that?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by bigd1101

Tom.........
Will I need to still tip the radiator forward at the top after removing the hood or will the pump and the impeller lift out without doing all that?

Probably not if you have 1 inch clearance from the pump shaft to the radiator, like my original parts have.

[bigd1101]

Update: the pump came off without tilting the rad. Those simulated bolts that look like studs are an ingenious invention. Waiting on the new pump. Looks like a 20 min. job altogether thanks to those bolts. Getting a new fan as the old one had some stress cracks. Will run distilled water and Water Wetter in the rad until the cold comes which will be soon here in upstate NY. Then I'll fill her up with 50/50 green antifreeze, burn the gas up in the lines and carb, put her to bed and wait until Spring........

Don

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Napa Macs 1300 Rust Inhibitor is also usually recommended when using distilled water.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Also, my method is to fill her up with ethanol free, add some gas stabilizer like Stabil 360, run it, and to bed she goes. Should help keep condensation/water out, do not have to be concerned about E10 gas phase separation, and stabilize the gas.

[bigd1101]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Also, my method is to fill her up with ethanol free, add some gas stabilizer like Stabil 360, run it, and to bed she goes. Should help keep condensation/water out, do not have to be concerned about E10 gas phase separation, and stabilize the gas.

Yes..almost forgot.......plus keep a full tank of gas. Less condensation at the top of the tank.

[bigd1101]

Is this needed on a new water pump? I thought the grease covered the pump lube part? I suppose the anti-rust additive is good for the rad and water jacket.....but I'm adding Water Wetter and they say that has anti-rust stuff in it. I'm using straight distilled water.

Bar-s-Leaks-Water-Pump-Lube-with-Anti-Rust

[Tom Wesenberg]

Antifreeze is a good lubricant for the seal. Rusty water will eat up the seal, then the bearings.


And, that unexpected early freeze will bust the block on anyone not using antifreeze.
Just ask Bert's about how many engines he sells for that reason.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Water wetter has some pump lube, but I have had multiple Senior Members of the Barn recommend to also the MACs, so I do, do not remember if there was an explanation why to use both.


Depending on the type of leakless water pump your are using, modern bearings/seals remove the need for greasing. Advantage of this is a better seal (no drippage and mess in the motor bay) and no worries about over greasing and getting grease into the coolant clogging up your radiator. The grease/lead packing/packing nut is the seal on original water pumps, they are prone to drippage. The packing nut is to provide adjustment of grease/lead packing seal. Do not know if its is true, was told that the pump was actually designed to drip at a very low drip rate to help cooling the seal area and the pump shaft. Part of updates to original pumps and leakless pumps is to add a modern seal in the packing nut area. The water pump lube helps keep the seal conditioned. Not sure if there are other benefits to the lube.

[bigd1101]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Antifreeze is a good lubricant for the seal. Rusty water will eat up the seal, then the bearings.


And, that unexpected early freeze will bust the block on anyone not using antifreeze.
Just ask Bert's about how many engines he sells for that reason.

I've thought about all that......my A boiled over on 50/50 but I think I had too much fluid in the radiator and I was driving the car. The car runs around 180 at fast idle. I read where you should only have enough fluid to cover the top radiator tubes. I'm torn here, but I also don't want a cracked block, like you said, with an early freeze.

Could I run say, 20/80 or a bit more, say 30/70 with the lower numbers being anti-freeze until I know about when the freeze will hit? Would a lower mix help any early freeze? A 32 degree freeze comes around the end of Sept and a killing freeze, 20 degrees, around the middle of Oct

I have a tester that would tell me the freeze point of any mix.....

[bigd1101]

I guess I'll just test a mix with less anti-freeze until winter comes........

[katy]

...

[30 Closed Cab PU]

This post is lengthy, I have a tendency to write a book to answer questions.


Tom is correct.


There is debate on which to use. You have to balance the pros and cons of each and make your own decision.


Google "Rocky Mountain Model A Club Cooling System Presentation" has great info.


My view and opinions - others views and opinions may vary


Antifreeze (Green) - OK if you do not run hot or overheat. If you do, you may want to look at your cooling system. Rust/Scale/grease in the system? Does your radiator have sufficient cooling capacity - recommended is a good 3 row core or a Brassworks 2 row, some require a 4 row in extreme cases like desert or high altitude.
Do you have an exhaust leak into the coolant another possibility.


Advantages - no need to change out for storage/freezing temps. Yearly if not flushed/changed recommend adding a bottle of Macs 1300 rust inhibitor to refresh the antifreeze rust inhibitor. Initially no additives needed. No worries about early freezes, or inadvertently forgetting to change out water coolant.


Disadvantages - If leaks, damages paint. Raises the overall boiling temperature of the coolant and also raises the nucleate boiling point in cooling cylinder walls. Water is a better conductor of heat out of the motor, Anti Freeze runs hotter which reduces the margin before oil flash over on the cylinder walls.


Distilled Water with Additives


Advantages - Has the best cooling properties when compared to antifreeze. Damage to paint greatly reduced if leak develops.


Disadvantages


Actually initially more expensive than Antifreeze, cost of additives, and still have to buy antifreeze for cold weather and storage. Cost comes down when the antifreeze is drained/stored and reused for the next year.


More Maintenance - draining and adding antifreeze, draining and saving antifreeze and adding water with additives yearly.


Additives required.


If forget to drain and cold weather - motor and radiator damage can occur. I've heard of this when someone goes into the hospital, or when someone passes, no one either knows or it is forgotten, to drain the water.




Sorry I can not answer you Antifreeze questions with certainty. But to me seems like a lot maintenance, easy to forget. Perhaps check out the condition of your cooling system 1st, make sure it is in tip/top shape. For your area/needs, maybe your motor is running on the hot side, not sure I do not know where an A should run at fast idle. Most issues are running at 40 and more MPH mph in 80 degree weather and above.


However some run an overflow tank. Coolant contracts when cold, expands when hot. If you fill to the overflow tube, hot coolant expands and goes out the over flow tube into the tank. When cooling it sucks back into the radiator from the tank, just like modern cars. An advantage to this is the system stays fuller and has slightly more coolant and you do not end up with antifreeze over the bottom of your car. You can also do this if running distilled water. Adding a tank is a matter of preference, some like originality and will not run an overflow tank.