Welding in Patch Panels on a Cowl

[Model A Fan]

I just bought a welder and took an intro to welding class at the local tech school. I want to weld the patch panels into my roadster, however, the cowl is slightly curved and the patch panels are very straight.

How does one "bend" the metal so that it will be the proper curve on the cowl?

[Kevin in NJ]

It is good that you know the metal must have the correct shape before you try to weld it in place.

It is a compound curve.

You need guess where to stretch the metal with some hammer on dolly work.

They may not have taught you this, but you must understand the each weld is a shrink point. You must level the metal at the weld (I am assuming you are MIG welding) and do some hammer on dolly work to level the metal.

Keep in mind you need to do some small welds across the face, jumping around. Then grind and hammer. Keep that up till you have it fit.

With a bit of practice it is not hard to get a panel that just needs a few coats of a filling primer to be level.

[Bill Stipe]

It looks like the ones you have are not die stamped there just flat you could use a shrinker on the bottom lip that would maybe help a little.
here is our dies you can see the curve in them.

[Model A Fan]

Originally Posted by Bill Stipe

It looks like the ones you have are not die stamped there just flat you could use a shrinker on the bottom lip that would maybe help a little.
here is our dies you can see the curve in them.

Uhhh, how much are yours?

[RockHillWill]

Very nice 'stuff' there Bill.

[Tinbasher]

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Nice to see someone making them right. It also looks like your panels have the right rolled bead that tapers away at the bottom instead of being straight up and down. Nice details.
John Poole

P.S. Please send me your contact info. JP

[john charlton]

In the vast majority of rusty lower cowls the front area is normally quite OK . I leave that part intact and cut up vertically just behind this area . At the very back vertical return this is normally OK as well . When the front portion of the patch panel is removed it is far more flexible and it is easy to mold it to the compound curve of the cowl . If you make some spaced cuts in the bottom edge you can then bend the patch panel slightly to make the correct fore and aft curve . As your patch panel looks like the dead flat type and not die stamped this is the ideal fix , Just MIG the cuts shut when done . The pic I posted is of a homemade patch panel on my AA truck ,never got around to do dolly work and filler as other projects put it on the back burner . I have used a "flat" panel on my USA pickup in Sunny Chandler Az and used this system and it turned out fine . Also you know your cowl band will fit a treat !!!. The top picture is the homemade panel after the welding was completed ,it still had to be dollied and filled but you can see better where the welds are ,I put primer on it to protect it so I could get around to it another day . The second pic has the same welds on my AZ pickup ready for topcoat .





John in overcast cool Suffolk County England.

[Terry, NJ]

Model A fan, The fit up of the new panel with the cowl is critical for a good job. Make (or buy) the new patch panel first, then cut the cowl to fit. Use a small air grinder with a cutoff wheel. I start with a piece of wire (.030) to gap the pieces to allow for some pull. But I'll come to that later, Scribe the outline of the patch on the cowl and cut a hole slightly smaller. then open the hole. with the small grinder to get your fit. It bears saying again, Fit up is critical for a good job! When the pieces fit well, tack them together (1 second Blasts with the MIG ) For my job, go to my album under "My A", in there, you'll see how I did it with the three PPs I had to put in my cowl and got a pretty decent job.
Terry

[H. L. Chauvin]

Thanks Terry for your sharing your experiences concerning the most important and intricate steps of detailed information for obtaining perfect metal patch panel fit.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would buy Bill Stipes patch panels and sell the others on ebay or at a swap meet.

I've never used an English wheel but can an English wheel be used to fix the flat panels?

[2manycars]

I have used the flat panels when they were the only ones available. I used my schrinking/stretching machine to produce the correct curve.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I would buy Bill Stipes patch panels and sell the others on ebay or at a swap meet.

I've never used an English wheel but can an English wheel be used to fix the flat panels?

I agree with Tom. Either do as he says buying new or see if you can find some good used ones. Suggestion would be talk to Bert's in Denver about used ones.

From my experience, which is maybe not that good, I did the same as you-took a number of welding classes, purchased welders and "tried" to weld up my panels. Well I gave up and bought some good use ones for my huckster.

The welding I did do on my hood, I found that brazing was best because it was lower heat and kept the metal from buckling. Anyway just some ideas from a limited experienced guy.

[Roger V]

I bought Bill Stipe's years ago and had Mark Welch install them in my '30 Pickup. Mark who was the very best metal guy I've met (did Bill Edstrom's National Best of Show 400-A) told me those panels were the best repro panels he'd ever worked with. If something this good is available, why in the world would you use/do anything else?

[ed thibodeau]

Back in 1958 the lower cowl panels were rusted out and I went to the local junk yard and got a couple front doors for $5.00 and cut out pieces to get the curve and then formed the front and rear edges to match the old panel and brazed them in.

[Ron W]

To learn more try these.
https://smartflix.com/store/video/15...ing-With-Steel

www.allmetalshaping.com

[bdave_mcc]

I would suggest not cutting the cowl to fit the patch. As a general rule in patch panels you cut out what needs to be cut from your bad panel and cut your replacement panel to fit. Leave as much factory material there as you can and then it may be easier to form the patch to fit. There are very few manufacturers out there that make really good panels. Sometimes you have to work with what you have or can get your hands on.

[jeep44]

I used cowl panels that were curved, but also had a flange on the weld edge. Maybe this type will leave a seam inside the cowl, but it will be hidden by the kick panels anyway. As an extremely amateur welder, I think this type is easier to weld in, and easier to fill,to blend it in. This was the first cowl I tried to repair, and I think they came out very well-the repair is invisible to me. I can't remember what vendor I got the panels from,though.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by bdave_mcc

I would suggest not cutting the cowl to fit the patch. As a general rule in patch panels you cut out what needs to be cut from your bad panel and cut your replacement panel to fit. Leave as much factory material there as you can and then it may be easier to form the patch to fit. There are very few manufacturers out there that make really good panels. Sometimes you have to work with what you have or can get your hands on.

this I agree with, just because the patch pannel is 6" high doesnt mean you have to use all of it.

i would scrounge around and practice on scrap modern fenders/hoods. body shops are a great source for banged up parts; if you tell them you want to practice they may give you a crumpled fender to practice with. may give you some pointers also!

[Phantom Phaeton]

I'm 16 years old and TIG welded panels in my late 31 pickup cab. They were the ones made by Bill Stipe. VERY NICE QUALITY!!!! You need the curve for a perfect fit. Well worth the $50. Attached are before and after photos.

[tbirdtbird]

surprisingly no one has mentioned weld-thru primer......

[bdave_mcc]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

surprisingly no one has mentioned weld-thru primer......

lets keep it that way

[tbirdtbird]

oh, right, no sense in doing it correctly

[bdave_mcc]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

oh, right, no sense in doing it correctly

You need weld through primer if youre using a lap, flange joint or spot or plug welds for your panels since youll have areas where you wont be able to get primer on afterwards. there lol

[Terry, NJ]

One more thing! Once, during a visit to a high end restoration shop, (Not a model A or Chevy in the bunch) I was "Brain picking" their two metal guys for any tips. And they gave me this, They always rounded the corners on their patches (Maybe a 3/4" radius). And they always filled holes with a disc. Why? They felt that the rounded corners pulled less when welded. I don't know! But I have used this method myself with good results.
Another thing, I don't know what kind of welding you're doing, but I grade welding like this.
1 TIG (Heliarc) the best.
2 MIG (Wire feed) OK
3 Stick MMA The worst! Forget it!
I hope this helps!
Terry

[Flop]

Some proper cowl panel installaion ... Tig weld if you can . Make sure that patch has the proper contour or you will fight the panel the whole way . Make your cut above the subframe connector so
You have access to hammer the weld . Honestly this is the patch I hate putting in the most .


No need for weld through primer . To expensive to coat a whole back of the panel . Spray the back with whatever primer you have skip the weld area so you don't breathe the stuff all day while welding then spray the whole panel down after you are finished welding and finishing .

[Flop]

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Other side

[Kevin in NJ]

I probably should not correct some things people have wrote, but I will.
I am not trying to be mean or cruel.

Hammer welding is what a blacksmith does. You get the metal hot and hammer it together. What I talked about is not hammer welding. It is using the science of metal that it shrinks with every weld and you have to correct it.

TIG welding is not heliarc. You use helium when welding aluminum. Some aluminum has to be welded where there is little oxygen or other gases.

Most people have MIG and that is what they have to learn to do their best. MIG is a PIA for doing good shrink correction. You need to grind both sides very flat so the hammer process does not cause more distortion locally from the 'blob'. Been there done that a lot.

Having been fortunate to have a TIG welder I can say that is the absolute best for doing wonderful sheet metal work. The heat control allows for laying in just enough heat to get full weld penetration while using little or no filler. Couple that with hammer corrections for shrinkage and even a bad welder can make panels come together and leave the metal close to the original contour.
Another advantage to TIG is the heat control makes it such you can run welds right up to the edge and not have the nasty burn back. The first time I did that I was in heaven.

Another method that works is oxy/act welding with a very small tip and low pressures. You also need to use the correct welding rod for best results. TIG rod (or MIG wire -er70-s6) is not the right stuff! As with TIG you do lots of spot welds and frequent hammering to correct shrinkage.

There are various metal fabrication websites with lots of info and you can rent videos from smartflix if you want to learn more.

[Flop]

If this is one of your panels Bill good stuff ... I always make everything in shop but this patch was screwed to the car when I got it . It actually fits

[bdave_mcc]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

I probably should not correct some things people have wrote, but I will.
I am not trying to be mean or cruel.

Hammer welding is what a blacksmith does. You get the metal hot and hammer it together. What I talked about is not hammer welding. It is using the science of metal that it shrinks with every weld and you have to correct it.

TIG welding is not heliarc. You use helium when welding aluminum. Some aluminum has to be welded where there is little oxygen or other gases.

Most people have MIG and that is what they have to learn to do their best. MIG is a PIA for doing good shrink correction. You need to grind both sides very flat so the hammer process does not cause more distortion locally from the 'blob'. Been there done that a lot.

Having been fortunate to have a TIG welder I can say that is the absolute best for doing wonderful sheet metal work. The heat control allows for laying in just enough heat to get full weld penetration while using little or no filler. Couple that with hammer corrections for shrinkage and even a bad welder can make panels come together and leave the metal close to the original contour.
Another advantage to TIG is the heat control makes it such you can run welds right up to the edge and not have the nasty burn back. The first time I did that I was in heaven.

Another method that works is oxy/act welding with a very small tip and low pressures. You also need to use the correct welding rod for best results. TIG rod (or MIG wire -er70-s6) is not the right stuff! As with TIG you do lots of spot welds and frequent hammering to correct shrinkage.

There are various metal fabrication websites with lots of info and you can rent videos from smartflix if you want to learn more.

Good stuff, bottom line is there are many, many methods out there to use for patch panels. Youll have people telling you this way or that way is the best and so on.
Use the best method you can for whatever type welding or process you have available and what your experience level is. For instance, usually a flange seam or a backing plate seam is easier than a butted seam.
Take your time, manage the heat in your panel, and as long as you don't leave pin holes in your welds that can allow moisture to seep in under your filler/paint and everything is treated properly, they will last for years.

Also the statement about rounding your edges is helpful. The way I do them is to slightly round outside corners and inside corners you can simply round the corner with a rat tail file or something similar. Sort of like drilling a hole to stop an engine block crack.

[Kevin in NJ]

Overlap seams are bad because you can not correct for weld shrinkage with hammer on dolly. I never do them except when replicating how the factory does a panel. Never liked the idea and I know now the butt weld is really easier and a much better weld.

While it may seem like a lot of work, getting a matched panel with a tight line is not that hard. I remember the first couple taking a while then it was old hat. Took no time, probably less time to do it right then the work an overlapped seam would cause trying to level with bondo later. That is not just my opinion. I read about an autobody guy who decided to do all his work with correct welding techniques that left a finish metal. Well it took him longer to get to primer, but his overall time was less then the guys leveling with bondo and the jobs came out looking better.

If you are MIG welding some have reported easier welds by having a slight gap. Some very experienced guys will taper the edges of the butt weld creating a V at the gap.

Also if MIG welding, if you blow through, get some TIG rod (ER70S6 like your wire). Put copper behind (I use copper a lot to keep the work down or to control heat in delicate situations) Then strike the MIG on the TIG rod and feed the two in together. The TIG rod will take the heat and not burn back the edges more. You will get a faster cleaner fill of a hole.

A minor note. With MIG welding it is easy to not get good penetration. I know I ran many feet of them when I was learning. Found out welding upside down that if the welder is not set right you cant weld MIG upside down. Magically, when the MIG is set right you also get the right penetration. I re-did a few feet of floor pan welds on a Mustang.

[Bill Stipe]

Yes Flop that sure looks like my panel. I have been stamping them since 2002. I had 5 model A's that needed cowl patches and the only thing I could find was straight formed and the bead was not shaped correctly. So I decided to make my own for my cars. the dies where patterned off an old 30 coupe front cowl I had laying around.

[pooch]

A shrinking/stretching machine is like seeing magic on metal.

After a folder, this is the best piece of manual sheetmetal shaping machinery to own.

[Terry, NJ]

Nice to have a real shop instead of having to do everything half assed or pay too much for stuff! I bought my panels at Hershey about 3-4 years ago and they had the much discussed, compound bend. I bought them from a dealer from a southern state. I can't recall their name now (No, it wasn't Smith and Jones) The fit was good and now after a coat of body filler, some sanding and filler primer, more sanding, only the sharpest, most experienced eyes could pick up the repair.
Terry

Originally Posted by Bill Stipe

Yes Flop that sure looks like my panel. I have been stamping them since 2002. I had 5 model A's that needed cowl patches and the only thing I could find was straight formed and the bead was not shaped correctly. So I decided to make my own for my cars. the dies where patterned off an old 30 coupe front cowl I had laying around.

[Terry, NJ]

Kevin, You're one of the last people on here I want to debate with over anything, But I want to point out that heliarc is merely TIG with a different gas. The equipment is the same (Cups, handle, Tungsten electrode,variable power through either a footswitch or thumbswitch) but most welders use the 25% argon, 75% CO2 mix for costs. We used the gas interchangeably for aluminum and steel. The only the we changed was the polarity, AC with high freq. start for aluminum, IIRC. It's been a while. I agree with you on every other point.
Terry

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

I probably should not correct some things people have wrote, but I will.
I am not trying to be mean or cruel.

Hammer welding is what a blacksmith does. You get the metal hot and hammer it together. What I talked about is not hammer welding. It is using the science of metal that it shrinks with every weld and you have to correct it.

TIG welding is not heliarc. You use helium when welding aluminum. Some aluminum has to be welded where there is little oxygen or other gases.

Most people have MIG and that is what they have to learn to do their best. MIG is a PIA for doing good shrink correction. You need to grind both sides very flat so the hammer process does not cause more distortion locally from the 'blob'. Been there done that a lot.

Having been fortunate to have a TIG welder I can say that is the absolute best for doing wonderful sheet metal work. The heat control allows for laying in just enough heat to get full weld penetration while using little or no filler. Couple that with hammer corrections for shrinkage and even a bad welder can make panels come together and leave the metal close to the original contour.
Another advantage to TIG is the heat control makes it such you can run welds right up to the edge and not have the nasty burn back. The first time I did that I was in heaven.

Another method that works is oxy/act welding with a very small tip and low pressures. You also need to use the correct welding rod for best results. TIG rod (or MIG wire -er70-s6) is not the right stuff! As with TIG you do lots of spot welds and frequent hammering to correct shrinkage.

There are various metal fabrication websites with lots of info and you can rent videos from smartflix if you want to learn more.

[Rex_A_Lott]

Heliarc is a brand name, that refers to what some people call TIG. So for a lot of folks, especially ones that have been around a while, Heliarc= TIG. Sort of like most people say Kleenex, regardless of who made it. I dont recall ever hearing the term TIG until the late 70's, and after the guy got finished explaining it, I said "oh, you mean Heliarc". He said "Yeah".
Not really worth getting wound up in the wording, IMHO.
Nice thread, good info here.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree with Rex, and now I need to find my Cresent wrench and go to work..................I mean my adjustable open end wrench.

In high school that was always a pet peeve of my shop teacher.

[Afordman31]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I agree with Rex, and now I need to find my Cresent wrench and go to work..................I mean my adjustable open end wrench.

In high school that was always a pet peeve of my shop teacher.

Have heard them also called "Fits All"

[Kevin in NJ]

I messed up my point on Heliarc. Yes it is TIG welding, but it is really descriptive of aluminum welding in certain conditions.
For better or worse, I try to get people talking a more correct terminology. I know Heliarc has become synonymous with TIG to an older generation, but what is being discussed here is just plane old TIG.

Same goes for the hammer welding. Not the right description for what is happening. You weld with the welder and correct with hammer work.

Early on I got pretty messed up with various terms that were being used incorrectly and I try to keep a common and hopefully more correct language for those starting out. I probably just come out as a pain in the ass, but I mean well.

Now I much go find by cresent wrench, vice grips and weller and get back to work.

[Bud]

Aren't most of the patch panels for the cowl available today have too flat of a bead compared to the factory bead? If not, who makes a properly formed patch panel?

[Terry, NJ]

Again! You're correct about us Fold Arts, We do confuse the two! And Hammer welding wasn't a term I was familiar with, We preferred "Tack it and Smack it". I Was a a Machinist/ toolmaker and we looked down on the welding trade, but it was something I wanted to know how to do. So I got a job, as a trainee, at Interpace Corp. in Rockaway ,NJ. There I learned stick welding and most of it was at least 1/4 " thick, so you just crank up the old Lincoln and burn the 7018 in. That will not work with 18 gauge. Later, I worked for Mikropul, in Summit nj and learned TIG and MIG. Then I worked for a company in Ocean Co as both a toolmaker and a part time welder. But I agree, Hammer welding is something that blacksmiths used to do. I like "Tack it and smack it" It's more accurate. And I have a real "Cresent" wrench and a couple of old "Monkey Wrenches. I also have a Ford wrench that was one of the handiest things when I was changing the plugs on my Triumph, Spitfire. Does that make it a Triumph wrench?
Terry

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

I messed up my point on Heliarc. Yes it is TIG welding, but it is really descriptive of aluminum welding in certain conditions.
For better or worse, I try to get people talking a more correct terminology. I know Heliarc has become synonymous with TIG to an older generation, but what is being discussed here is just plane old TIG.

Same goes for the hammer welding. Not the right description for what is happening. You weld with the welder and correct with hammer work.

Early on I got pretty messed up with various terms that were being used incorrectly and I try to keep a common and hopefully more correct language for those starting out. I probably just come out as a pain in the ass, but I mean well.

Now I much go find by cresent wrench, vice grips and weller and get back to work.

[Vin-tin]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Kevin, You're one of the last people on here I want to debate with over anything, But I want to point out that heliarc is merely TIG with a different gas. The equipment is the same (Cups, handle, Tungsten electrode,variable power through either a footswitch or thumbswitch) but most welders use the 25% argon, 75% CO2 mix for costs. We used the gas interchangeably for aluminum and steel. The only the we changed was the polarity, AC with high freq. start for aluminum, IIRC. It's been a while. I agree with you on every other point.
Terry

Does that give a better, more workable weld on steel sheet metal than straight argon?

[Terry, NJ]

My best answer! I don't know! In the three or four welding shops I worked in, I can't ever recall anyone using helium($$$) or straight Argon. The only thing I ever saw used was the75% CO2 and 25% argon, for MIG or TIG. Actually, since it's merely shielding the welding from oxygen, I don't what part the argon plays. Likewise, in the low Hydrogen wires like 7018, 8018, etc, the flux creates a shield to keep hydrogen out of the weld. Hope this helps!
Terry

[pooch]

Strange that here in OZ, our MiG gas composition is the other way around.

For thin metal, we have 3.1 % oxygen, 5 % CO2, rest is argon.

For a bit thicker plate, it is 20 % CO2 and 80 % argon.

These are BOC specs.

I seem to remember our general MiG gas was something like 90 % argon and 10 % CO2.



I wonder why USA is so much higher in CO2 ?

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by pooch

Strange that here in OZ, our MiG gas composition is the other way around.

For thin metal, we have 3.1 % oxygen, 5 % CO2, rest is argon.

For a bit thicker plate, it is 20 % CO2 and 80 % argon.

These are BOC specs.

I seem to remember our general MiG gas was something like 90 % argon and 10 % CO2.



I wonder why USA is so much higher in CO2 ?

Cost. CO2 is much cheaper than Argon here. There are several mixes out there, mostly for MIG, depending on what you are doing. 75% Co2 an 25%Argon is the most common for general purpose Mig work. I personally have never see a mix for doing TIG, with everybody sticking to 100% Argon, but that may just be because of convenience and because my experience is limited.
Hell, when I learned there were only two types of Tungsten, and I have definitely not kept up to speed on what is going on out there now.

[pooch]

Argon must be much harder to get out of the air.

It is in abundance compared to CO2.

23.8 times more .

---------------------------------------------

The common name air is given to the atmospheric gases used in breathing and photosynthesis. By volume, dry air contains 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.039% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases.
Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth

[tbirdtbird]

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you can use regular Ar/CO2 to MIG SS but if you want really nice welds with SS wire there is a mix with some He in there.
There are other combos for similar reasons with other metals
Some of the gasses are also chosen to stabilize the arc, not just shield from air

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

you can use regular Ar/CO2 to MIG SS but if you want really nice welds with SS wire there is a mix with some He in there.
There are other combos for similar reasons with other metals
Some of the gasses are also chosen to stabilize the arc, not just shield from air

Where I work we used 100% Argon to MIG stainless, to get rid of the black look. The welding gas rep had a tri-mix they recommended, but the boss wouldnt buy it because we did this so very little.
Some of the tri-mixes had O2 in them, which seemed ass-backwards to me, since the O2 was what you were trying to shield out, but I was not an expert.

[Ron W]

I learned to "Heliarc" in 1960 while working in a small "job" shop. We built machines and parts for the electronics development industries. We did a lot of development for Raytheon and Sylvania. After a few years I started my own small shop. I closed my shop about three years ago. During that time I used straight argon on my "tig" welder. The reason is that although a mix with co2 will do slightly better on steel, you don't want any co2 on aluminum (which we did a lot of). That way we only had to have one type of gas on hand. I am certainly not a expert, but that worked well for a long time. The last few years I have been doing some metal shaping as a hobby. I too have come to prefer the butt weld with TIG but I also like the A/O torch with RG 45 rod. The weld is much softer and can be stretched easily. Ron W

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Model A Fan

Uhhh, how much are yours?

Just pay the man! they will save you hours and hours of time and frustration.

[Kevin in NJ]

The welding gas mix you need depends on what weld structure is required.
Better penetration, less porosity.....

Welding gases for mig

Welding gases another site

[Terry, NJ]

Thanks for posting this! With all the talk about CO2 and global warming, it's a fun fact to know that CO2 is less than 1%, less than .5 of 1%. Better quit here before it gets political!
Terry

Originally Posted by pooch

Argon must be much harder to get out of the air.

It is in abundance compared to CO2.

23.8 times more .

---------------------------------------------

The common name air is given to the atmospheric gases used in breathing and photosynthesis. By volume, dry air contains 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.039% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases.
Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth

[Flop]

Vin tin you can't use 75 25 mix with a tig . Leaves pits in the weld .

[Flop]

Bills panel welded in