Different strokes for different folks

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by updraught

With a video you can gain skills real quick.

People build their own house now by using YouTube videos alone.

They wouldn't have attempted it years ago.

Forums and feedback on the internet were designed to accommodate false information from the beginning. Hopefully, the correct stuff will out weigh the incorrect stuff.
That's the way it was designed. It's a feature!

Most people who started a restoration in the 60's and 70's had no idea how much effort it would take. Probably most never got finished. That was due to a lack of information.

Based on my own experiences here in the States, the visual learning gives the confidence to begin a project however common sense is usually lacking soon thereafter. In my line of work I get a ton of e-mail & phone calls asking how to do a task on their Model-A. There are generally two common denominators in these situations with one being they have watched or read something on-line, ...and they lack reasoning skills to figure it out on their own. Imagine receiving a call wanting to take a wheel off but they are unsure which direction to twist the lug nut. If you ask them which way they have tried, they tell you both ways but the more you talk with them, you soon realize they really haven't tried either direction and they are calling because they don't want to screw it up and they read that some old cars had lug nuts that twisted off differently.

The next issue that is commonplace in which we are seeing in the workforce here is people lack the motor skills to get their fingers to do what their brain is telling them. There are WAY more skills needed to do a task correctly than can be learned watching a video. Folks can watch every TIG welding video on YouTube and still lack the ability to strike an arc successfully. It takes years of experience (-starting as a kid) to master eye-to-brain-to-hand skills. It takes those same skills to know how to drive a nail when building a house. YouTube videos can show the mechanics of driving that nail, but they cannot teach the person how to hit the head of the nail repeatedly.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Brent,
2 REALLY good postings you did!! I hope EVERYONE reads them, several times!!
In my feeble attempt to make "humor", I once got BANNED, temporarily, for 2 weeks, for making fun about HOW to bend Cotter Keys, properly, merely because there are BETTER ways to bend them, than the Factory Way!
Each of us are "unique", in the ways we do things. I always try to do things in a PRACTICAL way & ways that have worked WELL, for me, PERSONALLY! I've done this crap for EONS & ain't NO ROOKIE, with a yellow stripe on my toolbox! (Like the yellow stripe on the back of NASCAR ROOKIE Drivers' Cars)
Look up the definition of ROOKIE!--It ain't some CUTE BIRD!--LOL
Bro Bill W.

[Corley]

BRENT in 10-uh-C, et al,

I agree that people lack skills, that is until they aquire them. How do they aquire the skills? Through various methods, among them, watching videos, calling someone with known skills, forums, etc. So on the one hand, we criticise peeps for not having skills, and on the other hand, we criticise peeps for trying to aquire those skills. This puts us in quite a pickle, with us mostly just criticizing peeps less skilled than ourselves.

Now as we all know, there is more than one way to skin a cat, right? For example, my skill might not include painting cars, where some other guys skill may not include pouring babbit bearings. Guess what, we both can still "restore" a model A, perhaps with the help of others, or perhaps by learning the new skill required. One thing is for darn sure, criticizing each other for our lack of skills won't help get the job done. I personally welcome questions like which way to remove a lug nut (a perfectly valid question, by the way, since some early cars had left hand threads on the driver's side, not withstanding in some countries where drivers may not sit where we think they should), and those are exactly the guys who I want to help, because they thought about it enough to ask the question. I may think to myself, "Ah geeze, what is happening to our youth today?", But I want to help that person out, not so much by doing for them, but by showing them how to do the thing. That way we pass on our skills.

The big problem is finding peeps with enough interest to pass our skills on to. Gee, how did I get so off topic? My apologies, but after hitting all those keys, I'm not erasing it.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by CarlG

I'm with Purdy on this count.

And I sometimes think that Corley is spot on with his definition.

Thanks Carl , I also feel that Corley pretty much hit the nail on the head with his definition of some of the so called purists . I mostly post about things that work for me. I don't remember anybody ever saying that a person had to modify anything .

[rosenkranswa]

I really don't get it guys, what are debating here? There are now two threads on the forum where we seem to be vigorously contemplating our navels and forcefully agreeing with each other. It's all good (except the misinformation stuff Brent talks about).

[California Travieso]

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Corley,

I just want to know if you ever found the elusive "purist" you said you never met, or if your quest will continue?

David Serrano

[Bill G]

Purist is a relative term. I just like working on my Model A.

I don't think anyone is going to gain a skill by watching Youtube. I have used it many times to lead me to some elusive task, like finding the way into the stator on my motorcycle, or even some model A things, but I already had the skill (somewhat) to turn the wrench.

I read once that a "professional" musician, or let's say someone who is a master at body work or restoring cars goes through as much as 10,000 hours to achieve the level of professionalism. That's certainly more than I have.

I think if everyone who owns a model A were a purist, few of us would be enjoying our cars.

[Gary Karr]

I consider myself a purist and I've got to say I enjoy my three Model A's as much as anyone else. Much of my enjoyment is at swap meets looking for original parts as well as spending time in the shop restoring.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I agree with Gary.

[Growley bear]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Based on my own experiences here in the States, the visual learning gives the confidence to begin a project however common sense is usually lacking soon thereafter. In my line of work I get a ton of e-mail & phone calls asking how to do a task on their Model-A. There are generally two common denominators in these situations with one being they have watched or read something on-line, ...and they lack reasoning skills to figure it out on their own. Imagine receiving a call wanting to take a wheel off but they are unsure which direction to twist the lug nut. If you ask them which way they have tried, they tell you both ways but the more you talk with them, you soon realize they really haven't tried either direction and they are calling because they don't want to screw it up and they read that some old cars had lug nuts that twisted off differently.

The next issue that is commonplace in which we are seeing in the workforce here is people lack the motor skills to get their fingers to do what their brain is telling them. There are WAY more skills needed to do a task correctly than can be learned watching a video. Folks can watch every TIG welding video on YouTube and still lack the ability to strike an arc successfully. It takes years of experience (-starting as a kid) to master eye-to-brain-to-hand skills. It takes those same skills to know how to drive a nail when building a house. YouTube videos can show the mechanics of driving that nail, but they cannot teach the person how to hit the head of the nail repeatedly.

The skills that have taken some of us a lifetime to learn are treated as very insignificant by many people. Case in point; My son in law had the differential in his Ford F-150 rebuilt and couldn't understand why it only lasted 4000 miles. Turns out his uncle used a rattle wrench to set the pinion bearing preload among other things. While talking to the kid, his attitude is that his uncle is a computer guru and knows all about computers therefore he knows all about automotive technology by osmosis. The man has never worked in an auto repair field or had any kind of training.
I read your post about social media; I don't have the stomach for that STUFF.
Chet

[leo]

WOW! Lots of soul searching going on here. Is this a car hobby forum or a "Psychology Today" self help column?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Corley

But the guys I wonder about, are the true purists. Most of us know this person exists, one who would not modify anything from original, but most of us have never met this person. Do they have a forum of their own? One where changes are not allowed nor discussed? Seems to me those are the only ones who should be allowed to call themselves "restorer". I totally respect those guys, their talent, patients, perserverance, but frankly I've never met one.

I've put off responding to this but to answer your question, "Do they have a forum of their own? " This one used to be it.

When started the owner stated in 2010,

"I've gotten a bunch of private messages as of late about this and thought I had better speak up.

Quote:
Question: Is the Ford Barn about stock/restored early Fords?

Answer: YES!

Question: Is the Ford Barn about hot rodded or customized early Fords?

Answer: No... That's not our focus on The Ford Barn. The Jalopy Journal focuses on that stuff.
All that said, I understand there is some overlap. A great example is a guy with a '40 coupe that he likes to drive quite a bit. For drivability, he might stick a dual carb intake and maybe even some heads on his mill. Advice on such modifications is, of course, welcomed.

I realize (and I'm sure you guys do as well) that there is no broad line of separation between hot rodded and stock early Fords. This would be easy if there was... But it's important to remember that the Ford Barn focuses on the stock restorations while The Jalopy Journal focuses on hot rods and customs. Sure, we will have some "sidebars" on each site covering more bases, but the general premises remains.

As in life, things change and it appears so has the owners opinion of this site based on comments he has made not that long ago. If you are a purist or know of one tell them to go to vintagefordforum.net, The owner has software preventing the correct name from being used so although I typed in dot com, dot net will appear. There is a section where you can ask questions and get answers from those that have restored some of the highest scoring Model A's and not be belittled for it.

Once again I want to go on record as saying while I prefer to learn and see a car restored as it was originally built, I know it is your car to do with as you wish. I remind those of you that are about to blast me that I have posted information here on how to convert to 12volts. Information of how to rebuild alternators, where to get parts and kits for juice brakes, adapters for automatic transmissions and a host of other modifications to help those that wanted it. Will what I just wrote keep some of you commenting negatively, I know it will happen anyway.

[Jeff/Illinois]

'It's your car do as you want' we here that over and over.

I'm not politically correct so I won't repeat that. I like restored to original. End of debate.

I've seen some pretty ugly color combos and botched up antique cars. BUT, the difference is, I never ever would say anything out loud, or negative to the owner, about his car.

The polite thing to do is keep your mouth shut. You can think it, but shut-up. Keep it to yourself and move on. It's all supposed to be about having fun.

I've had my share of people pointing out paint flaws to me, a wrong part on the car, etc. etc. And sometimes they are right. And sometimes they just don't know what they are talking about.I know about the flaws. But all you did was make me mad, and draw a line in the sand. You wind up thinking to yourself 'OK I get it buddy, now clear out of here and get lost.'

[Purdy Swoft]

Very nicely put Jeff !!! I agree .

[Corley]

Originally Posted by California Travieso

Corley,

I just want to know if you ever found the elusive "purist" you said you never met, or if your quest will continue?

David Serrano

David,

Nope, can't find one. Whitewall tires? Nope, Ford didn't offer those until 1934. High compression head? Sorry, no can do. Check ball grease fittings? Not from the factory. Trunk hanging back there? Huh-uh, that's an accessory item. Turn sigs and seat belts? Give me a break, those were not even heard of! Plastic battery case? You guessed it. Ethylene glycol in the cooling system? Can't have that.The list goes on and on. Show me a true purist, and I bet in 5 minutes we can find something on his car that disqualifies him.

Now having said that, I see nothing wrong with those things, just don't claim you are a purist when you are not one, and we'll get along just fine. It's actually a matter of where we draw the line on changes, and still claim it is original. Some folks lines are just a bit higher than others, but how can we claim this forum is for the purists, when a) the forum owner clearly mentions dual carbs and such at the outset, and b) fully 50% or higher percentage of posts here talk about alterations of some sort.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this forum at all. Just wondering where the true purists forum is located? Or, is it even needed, since by definition, the true purist may not even be possible?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by leo

WOW! Lots of soul searching going on here. Is this a car hobby forum or a "Psychology Today" self help column?

Lay down on my couch and we'll talk about it. LOL

[dumb person]

Restore, mend, repair, whatever gets you on the road & enjoying your car (Even if it's on a trailer and you're riding it it with headphones playing engine noises.

i started with a few tools i found at the rubbish dump. Got better at my repairs, and now people envy my repairs. And i still have miles of room for improvement. Gotta start somewhere.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Corley

Just wondering where the true purists forum is located? Or, is it even needed, since by definition, the true purist may not even be possible?

To be crystal-clear about this, people who are seeking to be 100% authentically correct with a restoration DO exist.

As mentioned above, this forum used to be very involved with 'authentic restoration' topics with quite a few very knowledgeable participants sharing and discussing Fine-Point related topics but due to circumstances beyond their control, they were made to feel unwelcome and so they have moved elsewhere. Posting about alternative Model-A forums here will get you banned from here, so my suggestion is continue to participate here and when you have a purist-related question, try asking it here first and if you do not receive the correct answer, then contact someone by phone or e-mail who has restored Fine-Point but is no longer here to ask your question(s). If you need contact information for many of these Fine-Point gurus who are no longer participating here, feel free to contact me off-line and I will privately share their contact info.