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Old 01-04-2018, 07:03 PM   #1
wingski
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OK, here we go again. I just found out that to accurately adjust the brakes on a model A you must use a brake board according to Les Andrews. Come on guys, some of you have let me know how great you think mechanical brakes are compared to hydraulics. What planet are you guys living on? Apparently one without asphalt roads so you don’t wear your tires out when testing them after adjustment.

I don’t know about you, but the idea of skidding my rear tires to see if the brakes are correctly adjusted is bogus.

I have come to the conclusion that the brakes on a model A are the most complicated part of the whole car. I’ve tried to find something else that requires you to kneel down, bend over, stick your head under a fender four times and do it over and over and over. And wait, you have to use a board that you have to make for the correct pedal adjustment. You’ve got to be kidding me! It’s like a mini marathon to work on the brakes on an A.

I hate to say it, but you guys that think mechanical brakes are great have been hit in the head with a big wrench or a brake drum too many times.

Mike
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:12 PM   #2
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you can just apply them heavily and you will feel the car pull this way or that. I made a brake board and at the same spot on the board my rears stop and one more notch the front get some drag. but the car pulls right on braking not bad but it pulls.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:12 PM   #3
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It's not that bad there is a good video on YouTube
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:19 PM   #4
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But at least the wheel cylinders don,t leak , & you still have too adjust
juice brakes,












wingski Ar but the wheel cylinders don,t leak & you still have too adjust juice brakes, coupled with Teds floaters are as good or better ,
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:20 PM   #5
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Mine work great and adjustment is easy.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingski View Post
OK, here we go again. I just found out that to accurately adjust the brakes on a model A you must use a brake board according to Les Andrews. Come on guys, some of you have let me know how great you think mechanical brakes are compared to hydraulics. What planet are you guys living on? Apparently one without asphalt roads so you don’t wear your tires out when testing them after adjustment.

I don’t know about you, but the idea of skidding my rear tires to see if the brakes are correctly adjusted is bogus.

I have come to the conclusion that the brakes on a model A are the most complicated part of the whole car. I’ve tried to find something else that requires you to kneel down, bend over, stick your head under a fender four times and do it over and over and over. And wait, you have to use a board that you have to make for the correct pedal adjustment. You’ve got to be kidding me! It’s like a mini marathon to work on the brakes on an A.

I hate to say it, but you guys that think mechanical brakes are great have been hit in the head with a big wrench or a brake drum too many times.

Mike
Well...GEE!,.....how do you adjust drum brakes that are HYDRAULIC !
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:31 PM   #7
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Are you sure a Model A is the car for you?? Maybe a nice Prius would be less taxing.....
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:34 PM   #8
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Are you sure a Model A is the car for you?? Maybe a nice Prius would be less taxing.....
X2. I was just going to add this same comment. Maybe his toast got burned.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:54 PM   #9
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Actually they are really pretty good. For the time and speed we are going. The trick is to adjust them correctly initially and then after that it is just a tweek here and there. But I can see how doing this on gravel roads would get tiresome very fast.

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Old 01-04-2018, 08:04 PM   #10
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Maybe we should go back to the Model T. Having NO wheel brakes was so popular it almost put ford out of business.
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:31 PM   #11
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Some folks put masking tape on the side of the brake pedal with the same increments as the board. Either have someone hold the pedal at that mark or make spacers (same as the board) to go under the pedal and then put weight on the pedal.

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Old 01-04-2018, 08:55 PM   #12
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If you use Henry's adjustment instructions you don't need no stinking board.

Bob
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian View Post
Well...GEE!,.....how do you adjust drum brakes that are HYDRAULIC !
You use a wrench! Very easy and I must do something right as my wheel cylinders haven’t leaked in 25 years. Maybe it’s because I drive them all the time.
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:40 PM   #14
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I like to use the Grey-Rock (Model A) brake adjust pages, no board included. Hey Wingsky, you'll get the hang of it sometime if you keep at it. Take all this advice as just that. If you have decided to follow any of it, do a little research to verify if you want to for sure.

Last edited by J Franklin; 01-04-2018 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:45 PM   #15
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all steel from the pedal to the wheel
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Old 01-04-2018, 11:01 PM   #16
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Fake news!

I understand the desire to keep the Model A as it was built from 1928-1931. By the same token, a whole host of other manufacturers were touting the benefits of hydraulic brakes in the 1930's. The "all steel from the pedal to the wheel" guys need to give it a rest.
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Old 01-04-2018, 11:27 PM   #17
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You don't need a board , I don't use a board and you sure as hell can't take Les Andrews book for gospel . Model A brakes are straight foward and simple for a person that really undertstands them . I agree with Bob C in post #12 . Its too late for me to get into it tonight . If you've got the service bulletins all of the correct info is there. they have info fopr the early style brakes and the later more common style brakes in two different places , don't mix them up . Les probably came up with the board adjustment system on his own . some use the board adjustment and like it . Experence with mechanical brakes is the best teacher . If you would like I will post how I do mine sometime tomorrow or not if you are not interested . It will take a lot of typing and I type with one finger .
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Old 01-04-2018, 11:39 PM   #18
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No drip or no stop. Choose as you like. Just like tube shocks, ride a little harder but don't drip.
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:05 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. moordigian View Post
Well...GEE!,.....how do you adjust drum brakes that are HYDRAULIC !
NOT ! If they are self adjusting !
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:11 AM   #20
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Clearly modern works better. But well adjusted old stuff works for the purpose. Yes, it may take more regular maintenance, but juice systems need maintenance (some love) too.

Returning from a consecutive overseas tour, I pick up the old Dart and towed it to the new duty station. About a month after it became my daily driver, in stopping Los Angeles traffic, the pedal met the floor with the car not slowing. Luckily rapid pumping built pressure to stop. New master, wheel cylinders and replaced brake lines fixed it. That dot4 stuff likes to absorb moisture rusting important bits.

You flush your brake fluid every 3 years to keep the ABS working correctly, right?
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:12 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob C View Post
If you use Henry's adjustment instructions you don't need no stinking board.

Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft View Post
If you would like I will post how I do mine sometime tomorrow...
Purdy, I will save you the trouble...
From my archives;


Purdy’s Brake adjustment

Here is what works for me, even if there is wear in the system. Disconnect all of the service brake rods at the clevis end. Adjust the brake pedal rod so that the brake switch plunger is 1/16 inch from the inside back of the center cross member with the brake pedal at the top of its travel. This is where the pedal rod plunger contacts the brake light switch on the 30-31 models. In extreme cases, to give more threads at the clevises it may be necessary to adjust the pedal rod all the way back to the center crossmember without the 1/16 gap. Because there will nearly always be some wear in rear wheel bearings and axle housing bearing races, I first adjust the rear brakes. With any wear, rear brake adjustments made with the rear wheels off the ground will be TOO tight with the wheels on the ground. With the tires properly inflated for easy roll, I adjust the rear brakes with the tires on the shop floor. You only want very slight drag if any or the brakes will quickly overheat. Unless something is too tight, wheel bearings, brakes or the tires are low, a man should be able to slightly push the car back and forth by hand while making adjustments at the rear wedges to determine brake drag. You don't want much drag. After the rear brake adjustments at the rear wedges have been made Move to the front. With jack stands under the front axle, adjust the front brakes at the wedges until the brakes lock and back off as needed .You can check brake action by spinning the wheel and moving the brake lever by hand before connecting the brake rods. After the front wedges are adjusted, its time to move on to the brake rod connections. If you want good brakes, BELIEVE me, forget about any exact measurement here!!!!!!! The brake rods need to all be adjusted at the clevis ends so that the clevis pins will just enter the pinholes with ALL slack removed. This setup will have the pedal at the top of its travel and ready to put the lining to the drum. There is no need to concern yourself about whether the rear brakes engage first, its built in. I guarantee that if the brakes are right or even have some wear this setup will give very good brakes. Anything less will not. In testing and as new parts wear in, adjustments will need to be monitored I usually make panic stops in sand or dirt to gauge skid marks and adjust as needed.

Follow Purdy's procedure and your car will stop. Burn your board!!

Last edited by Y-Blockhead; 01-05-2018 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:25 AM   #22
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Well, I’m back from shopping. It’s just about a 75 mile round trip, and it was foggy most of the way. Fun, fun, and more fun. I’m being sarcastic just like I was trying to be in my original “bogus”.

I’ve got to give you guys a lot of credit. I thought that when I got home and turned on my laptop, it was going to explode or at least be too hot to handle.

Again, I thank you for all your comments and when a really good suggestion comes along, I always check it out. That’s how this whole brake thing started. A simple “your levers are upside-down” led me to discover a big screw-up that I had nothing to do with.

Now, the brakes are as they were intended to be, but nothing is adjusted correctly. It’s almost like I have to take the thing back to the factory, and have them set it up the way it was originally intended. However, there is no factory or oiginal brake assemblers left.

I’ll eventually get them adjusted. I hope. However, now that it is Winter I seem to be spending a lot of time indoors where it’s warm, and I’m typing instead of wrenching.

Mike
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:30 AM   #23
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There are several methods for adjusting your brakes - Try Purdy's first.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:08 AM   #24
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The mechanical brakes are good, and never leak. The SERVICE BULLETINS tell how to adjust them, and it is really easy to do. Once adjusted, I brake hard on sand or gravel and check for equal length of skid marks, or on pavement just brake somewhat hard and see if the car pulls left or right, then adjust the brakes accordingly.

Follow the SERVICE BULLETINS, and it likely won't pull to either side.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:13 AM   #25
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Mike,
I assume by your Barn join date that you like me are new at this Model A hobby. Unlike modern autos where if your lucky you can change the oil, Model As are a participation car. They need a lot of owner involvement. Open the gas valve, turn the GAV, retard the spark, etc. Prior to acquiring my 29 I believed I needed juice brakes too. These old cars are easy and sometimes fun to work on. Its part of the experience.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:22 AM   #26
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Yes, lots of components and adjustments to mechanical brakes. When I first got mine it had been sitting in a garage neglected for fifty years. I went through the whole braking system and, yes, it seemed overwhelming.

After I did that once, I now adjust the brakes about twice a year. It takes maybe twenty minutes.

I think if she had hydraulics (with fifty years of neglect) it would have been much the same except with dry rotted seals and lines instead of rusted bolts and adjusters.

Both are valid systems with strengths and weaknesses, it is really just a case of what you are comfortable with. My car is very much a conversation piece, so I like to keep it pretty original. Mechanical brakes are a great conversation starter.

Ken
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:45 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead View Post
Purdy, I will save you the trouble...
From my archives;


Purdy’s Brake adjustment

Here is what works for me, even if there is wear in the system. Disconnect all of the service brake rods at the clevis end. Adjust the brake pedal rod so that the brake switch plunger is 1/16 inch from the inside back of the center cross member with the brake pedal at the top of its travel. This is where the pedal rod plunger contacts the brake light switch on the 30-31 models. In extreme cases, to give more threads at the clevises it may be necessary to adjust the pedal rod all the way back to the center crossmember without the 1/16 gap. Because there will nearly always be some wear in rear wheel bearings and axle housing bearing races, I first adjust the rear brakes. With any wear, rear brake adjustments made with the rear wheels off the ground will be TOO tight with the wheels on the ground. With the tires properly inflated for easy roll, I adjust the rear brakes with the tires on the shop floor. You only want very slight drag if any or the brakes will quickly overheat. Unless something is too tight, wheel bearings, brakes or the tires are low, a man should be able to slightly push the car back and forth by hand while making adjustments at the rear wedges to determine brake drag. You don't want much drag. After the rear brake adjustments at the rear wedges have been made Move to the front. With jack stands under the front axle, adjust the front brakes at the wedges until the brakes lock and back off as needed .You can check brake action by spinning the wheel and moving the brake lever by hand before connecting the brake rods. After the front wedges are adjusted, its time to move on to the brake rod connections. If you want good brakes, BELIEVE me, forget about any exact measurement here!!!!!!! The brake rods need to all be adjusted at the clevis ends so that the clevis pins will just enter the pinholes with ALL slack removed. This setup will have the pedal at the top of its travel and ready to put the lining to the drum. There is no need to concern yourself about whether the rear brakes engage first, its built in. I guarantee that if the brakes are right or even have some wear this setup will give very good brakes. Anything less will not. In testing and as new parts wear in, adjustments will need to be monitored I usually make panic stops in sand or dirt to gauge skid marks and adjust as needed.

Follow Purdy's procedure and your car will stop. Burn your board!!
Great information, made copy for future reference.

I would like to add that if brake system is worn out, no matter what you do, it will not work well. REBUILD complete system. Don’t overlook anything. You will be rewarded with a car that stops, and you will feel comfortable driving it. Enjoy.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:51 AM   #28
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Fake news!

I understand the desire to keep the Model A as it was built from 1928-1931. By the same token, a whole host of other manufacturers were touting the benefits of hydraulic brakes in the 1930's. The "all steel from the pedal to the wheel" guys need to give it a rest.
Well if you like hot rods, then good for you. Most of us are happy with the original equipment. Maybe the HAMB would be a better place.
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:57 AM   #29
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If you think the brakes are to much to handle...I can't wait for you to get to the really fun stuff.
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Old 01-05-2018, 11:23 AM   #30
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OK, here we go again. I just found out that to accurately adjust the brakes on a model A you must use a brake board according to Les Andrews. Come on guys, some of you have let me know how great you think mechanical brakes are compared to hydraulics. What planet are you guys living on? Apparently one without asphalt roads so you don’t wear your tires out when testing them after adjustment.

I don’t know about you, but the idea of skidding my rear tires to see if the brakes are correctly adjusted is bogus.

I have come to the conclusion that the brakes on a model A are the most complicated part of the whole car. I’ve tried to find something else that requires you to kneel down, bend over, stick your head under a fender four times and do it over and over and over. And wait, you have to use a board that you have to make for the correct pedal adjustment. You’ve got to be kidding me! It’s like a mini marathon to work on the brakes on an A.

I hate to say it, but you guys that think mechanical brakes are great have been hit in the head with a big wrench or a brake drum too many times.

Mike
Comments like this are why I stopped coming here last year and now seldom come here any more.
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:19 PM   #31
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Comments like this are why I stopped coming here last year and now seldom come here any more.
I agree with you. Too many of the new guys are very opinionated and come on too strong. Fortunately, many lose interest quickly and stop posting.

I'm old school. I believe if you're new to a board like the Barn, you should show some respect. I think it's best to read the posts, research old threads, and learn something before challenging someone on a topic you know very little about.

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Old 01-05-2018, 12:51 PM   #32
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He said he was being sarcastic. Remember it's the internet, we can't see facial expressions or the tone of his voice to know he was just joking. Lighten up you two Frances's.
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:54 PM   #33
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this is the video on adjusting the brakes that I watched. But as I said when I got to checking them out I chose to leave them where they were. They had probably not had that many miles since their last adjustment.

I dont think you need to skid the car to adjust the brakes. You should be able to tell by turning the wheels by hand and feeling drag and if the car pulls way too much with braking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMizfaKHXVQ

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Old 01-05-2018, 12:57 PM   #34
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As I've stated in the past: "Wish I lived closer!"
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:16 PM   #35
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I believe if you're new to a board like the Barn, you should show some respect.

David Serrano
I would say that holds true whether your an old member or just came on board today, Heck, In ANY forum. They don't come here to start crap, it's just the personality that they were given.

10:1 Their life on the Internet resembles their life without the Internet.

That's my 2¢ worth

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Old 01-05-2018, 01:26 PM   #36
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He said he was being sarcastic. Remember it's the internet, we can't see facial expressions or the tone of his voice to know he was just joking. Lighten up you two Frances's.
If one is being intentionally Snarky on the web and doesn't feel like putting on a Flame Suit, one should add the Snark abbreviation. <s/>

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Old 01-05-2018, 01:28 PM   #37
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Comments like this are why I stopped coming here last year and now seldom come here any more.
A hot kitchen is where the best cooks can be found.
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:53 PM   #38
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I believe the stopping power of well maintained mechanical brakes is limited by the rubber to road footprint, ergo the same for juice brakes w/o anti-skid and who is willing to go there?

John
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:00 PM   #39
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C'mon guys, knock it off before Ryan needs to get involved. It is getting a lot easier to be banned from the site.

I learned a lot about brake adjustment from the positive comments on this thread.
Thanks Purdy!
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:25 PM   #40
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Thanks Cool Hand and other kind people on this thread ,especially my friend Y Blockhead for your post # 21 . I was already wishing that I hadn't made the offer in the first place !!! Wingskis posts wasn't a direct insult to me . If he isn't interested in being able to set up and adjust his brakes , so be it .
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:37 PM   #41
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Mike, I just got back from a Jan. 4th cold Mississippi morning ride. I checked the brakes (as I always do) with pumping to a slow roll, hard brake for 20 mph and distance check for a 40 mph stop. I don't need to adjust the brakes for now.

I like the interaction I have with the major functions of the Model A. Those needs being; the car must go (internal combustion) and stop (mechanical brakes in this case).

I've scrapped knuckles and been coated in hydraulic fluid while priming lines on newer cars. I liked that for those vehicles when I got the same results of go then stop. At least I don't have to think of vertical drop (as I did when I worked on Huey's in the military) with either hydraulic or mechanical braking systems.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:42 PM   #42
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Ford Brakes work very well, but they have to be rebuilt to new.

They are no different then Motors, as you know. There are rebuilt Motors, and then there are REALLY rebuild motors!

There is nothing you can do to get the brakes to work like new, unless everything is put back to factory Spec's.

The only people that cussed the Model T and A's are the ones that run the cars when they were wore out, and it is still happening today. If your Brakes don't work, "FIX" "THEM".

I would never use stock drums, as heat can warp them. Drums have to be Arched after swaging. Shoes also have to be Arched, to fit the Arch of the drum, and many don't.

Then, all slop has to be taken out of the brake rod , and Lever assembly.

Roller and tract, and other parts, all need to repaired. We rebuild the roller track as the repro's I don't like.

If you do that, they work like Henry Intended. They will slide all four tires on black top. If they don't, you missed something.

Herm.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:51 PM   #43
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Fellas, if you've followed wingski's many posts (over 40 per month) he seems to fancy himself a humorist. Maybe we have the reincarnation of Will Rogers, or perhaps Jay Leno incognito! Some day we can tell our grandchildren we knew him when.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:10 PM   #44
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I haven't watched the Tonight Show since Jay left. Jay is good people.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:20 PM   #45
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C'mon guys, knock it off before Ryan needs to get involved. It is getting a lot easier to be banned from the site.

I learned a lot about brake adjustment from the positive comments on this thread.
Thanks Purdy!
As I read the last day's worth of posts and saw how many people were getting all lathered up about this, I thought exactly the same thing.
I also learned a lot from Purdy's method which makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:24 PM   #46
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While we are talking brakes I would like to say this . Just because the brakes need adjusting certainly doesn't mean that evey part will need to be replaced . Most don't replace all of the parts on modern cars with shoe brakes when the brakes need adjusting . On the other hand a person can replace every part of the model A brakes and still have very poor brakes . If the brakes are not properly set up and adjusted correctly it doesn't matter if a person spends thousands on parts , the brakes will be poor. when the brake lining wears a bit but not completely worn out ,an adjustment can solve the problem and still give excellent results as it would on any car with shoe brakes. usually when model A brake lining wears a bit and needs adjustment the slack will also need to be adjusted out of the brake rods. Proper brake rod setup is also an adjustment that doesn't require replacement of parts . Brake rod setup can make the difference between very poor brakes and good brakes . I feel that it is about time that this was said . Replacing every part of the brakes has been repeated so many times that probably most newbees believe it is necessary .

When the brake lining wears to the point that it needs replacement . the brake tracks will also require attention . As the lining wears the roller pins wear a dip in the tracks . Wear on the tracks allows the shoes and lining to drop . If the lining is replaced the brakes will be out of center and most won't be able to get the drums back on . I also don't like the replacement brake tracks and there is NO guarntee that new tracks will center the brake shoes . I weld up the dip in the tracks and grind them back to level . A brake centering tool will tell whether the tracks need to be built up more or less to be centered . If the shoes aren';t pretty close to centered the drums won't have the necessary clearance to slip past the lining . Just a few more important thoughts about model A brakes . Modern cars with shoe brakes are full floating and don't require all of this work when the lining or new shoes are replaced .
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:01 PM   #47
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The old Harleys I rode had brake rods and cables too, didn't seem too complicated so now I have four wheels to adjust instead of two. I vote for mechanical brakes on my A.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:10 AM   #48
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I think the A's mechanical brakes are very efficient for the vehicle,I have been driving it since 1962 with very little brake maintenance.I have a 1950 Merc. with a dual master cylinder for disc and drum brakes,I take long extended trips.I happen to check the master cylinder recently and found the rear res. empty,the rear imported wheel cylinders were leaking,surprise! I would stick to the mech. A brakes,not much benefit from the hydraulics for all the work involved.
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:43 AM   #49
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I agree !!!
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:20 PM   #50
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x2 My brakes were poor.. then we rebuilt everything and back to org. spec except now cast drums. Stops great! Very few adjustments after 1st 200 miles.
Will last longer than I will !
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:33 PM   #51
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I haven't watched the Tonight Show since Jay left. Jay is good people.
Same with me. Since Dave and Jay left the late night shows, all that's on now is a bunch of left losers. It's more fun to watch the police channel with the losers driving stolen cars and try to outrun the cops. It's unreal more aren't killed in the crashes. BTW, it's called "MOST SHOCKING".

As far as Model A brakes, Herm said it all.
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:48 PM   #52
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Mechanical vs juice.

I have a 60 car that has 1 master cylinder and my A brakes better, and with less fade. I always feel safer in the A, because I always wonder what is the master goes, or I burst a line.

I adjust the brakes without a board and slam the brakes on a paved road. If it doesn't pull, good. If it pulls I readjust.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:39 PM   #53
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I just had my brakes & drums rejuvenated by Randy Gross. I'll finish the install when I get back from vacation next week.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:58 PM   #54
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Mechanical vs juice.

I have a 60 car that has 1 master cylinder and my A brakes better, and with less fade. I always feel safer in the A, because I always wonder what is the master goes, or I burst a line.

I adjust the brakes without a board and slam the brakes on a paved road. If it doesn't pull, good. If it pulls I readjust.
Probably the only choices would be to hit the emergency brakes or put it in reverse , if it has an automatic transmission. I once had to use reverse on an old Ford with A fordamatic transmission. The car would slow to a stop and then start backing up . I made it home without hurting the transmission . The problem turned out to be the vacume hose had came loose on the power brakes vacume tank .
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:26 PM   #55
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FORGET THE STUPID BOARD ! !
There's been PAGES & PAGES of good info on adjusting the danged brakes, properly!!! Are we tryin' to INVENT a NEW WAY????
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Old 01-07-2018, 01:17 AM   #56
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Mechanical vs juice.

I have a 60 car that has 1 master cylinder and my A brakes better, and with less fade. I always feel safer in the A, because I always wonder what is the master goes, or I burst a line...
Then there must be something wrong with your 60 car I think.
When you drive a car with "what if the master goes, or I burst a line" in your mind, you shouldn't drive anymore.
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:10 AM   #57
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Definition of WORRY: Replaying tapes in your head---WHAT IF?-WHAT IF?-WHAT IF????
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:05 AM   #58
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I find all the concern about failing hydraulic brakes amusing! I've been driving for 53 years. My 29 is the first car that didn't have juice brakes. With the exception of a failed ABS system on an 86 Pontiac 6000 STE, I have never had a catastrophic brake failure. Some of the cars I drove were real crap wagons! I thought I would need to convert my As brakes to hydraulics until I discovered the cost to do so. Being "thrifty" 2 grand and several days of skinned knuckles convinced me the old mechanicals would do the job. I do plan to buy a set of Randy's cast iron drums.
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:21 AM   #59
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I had (still have) a 1994 4x4 ton with a dump and box type bed chevy 3500 full of fire wood. I was backing down a very steep hill (no place to turn around) and the back brake line burst. If I hadn't of had 4wd (as I quickly jerked it into) I'm not sure what the story would be.

I may switch the brakes on that truck to mechanical.
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:27 AM   #60
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I find the debate on the use of mechanical brakes vs. hydraulics rather disingenuous. First off, as pointed out by many on this board, the proper restoration to factory specifications of a mechanical brake system is the answer to good braking. I concur. On the other hand, the naysayers of hydraulic systems point out to failures without noting the condition of the hydraulic system.

My choice of hydraulic brakes on my A's is based on the fact that I drive them almost on a daily basis. Both of my A's have been on the chassis dyno and produced 59 and 60 horsepower at the rear wheels. Like those people pointing out failures in hydraulic systems, I had a failure with a mechanical system and blew through a stop light due to severe brake fade with a car that had a properly adjusted system.

Like any braking system, maintaining a hydraulic system is just as important. In the interest of safety, I'm also using a clip to retain the drum in the event of a broken axle.

In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get a long"
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:43 AM   #61
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Well said denis4x4: Plus very ingenious retaining clip. Jeff
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:00 PM   #62
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Well said denis4x4: Plus very ingenious retaining clip. Jeff
+2 on the clip and everything else he said. I'd say either done (properly) and maintained are good to go.
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:45 AM   #63
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What are you doing wrong is my question?

The whole reason i bought the car was because mechanical brakes.
And i don't use a board to adjust anything. Sure, i don't know what i'm doing, i just set them up the way i do any other brakes. Doesn't seem too mysterious or difficult.
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:13 AM   #64
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I find all the concern about failing hydraulic brakes amusing! I've been driving for 53 years. My 29 is the first car that didn't have juice brakes. With the exception of a failed ABS system on an 86 Pontiac 6000 STE, I have never had a catastrophic brake failure. Some of the cars I drove were real crap wagons! I thought I would need to convert my As brakes to hydraulics until I discovered the cost to do so. Being "thrifty" 2 grand and several days of skinned knuckles convinced me the old mechanicals would do the job. I do plan to buy a set of Randy's cast iron drums.
someone doesn't live where salt is :P in my 14 years driving Ive had to replace 3 brake lines due to rust and them blowing out on a 95 s10 and 02 blazer. Also have gone through 2 master cyl and 4 rear wheel cyl on my 80 chevette due to leaks.

Both s10 and blazer have had to get the fuel lines replaced for same salty rusty reasons.
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:21 AM   #65
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If we were all designing the Model A from scratch as a committee, the argument between using mechanical or hydraulic brakes would be a valid one. But since the car came from the factory 90 years ago with mechanical brakes and we are a site dedicated to preserving the Model A, it's a moot point. Of course, hydraulic brakes are superior to mechanical ones in modern cars. After all, how many new car manufacturers still use mechanical brakes? But for our light-weight antique cars, properly rebuilt mechanical brakes are more than adequate, if not desirable. Simply slapping in newly relined brake shoes and relying upon original 90 year-old steel brake drums that have seen more than their share of truing and then expecting the braking system to function as designed is hardly fair to the car or the mechanical brakes as a class. A Model A with brakes rebuilt to factory spec's will send you towards the windshield in a panic stop. What more can you want?
I am prejudiced against hydraulic brakes in Model A's because in my 50+ years of messing around with these cars, I have seen unbelievably poor and stupid hydraulic brake conversions that some low grade moron cobbled together, making the car a rolling death trap. If you have been in this hobby long enough, you've seen that, too. On the other hand, well-designed systems - such as what Dennis Cling offers - that are properly installed and maintained should be as reliable as modern car braking systems. Although I am not a purist in the classic sense because I like a little extra umph in my engines, I do draw the line at making modifications that are visible and above all, irreversible. Once a Model A has been converted to hydraulic brakes, it is an expensive and frustrating experience going back to the original mechanical braking system. Of the many Model A's I have bought over the years, some had hydraulic brakes and each one of them either failed me at the wrong time (is there ever a "right time"?) or were unreliable and poor stoppers because of the lousy installation job. The only time a mechanical brake system failed me was my own fault because of a forgotten cotter pin.
This will always be a sore subject among our group. Those who have hydraulic systems in their cars and trust them are not likely to be changing their opinion. And those who restore the mechanical brakes and rely upon them will defend their use, especially since that is the original equipment. So, the two opposing camps will not convince the other to change their opinions. Where the problem arises is with the new guys coming on-board seeking advice whether they should convert their cars to hydraulics because a previous owner did not rebuild the mechanical brakes properly. The predictable pro and con arguments invariably flare up by the same folks. I, for one, would like to see the newbie at least TRY to restore his original brakes before converting to hydraulics. Quite frankly, if the guy isn't mechanically up to rebuilding the mechanical brake system in a Model A, I fear for his ability to make the tricky conversion to hydraulics! Would YOU trust a car thus converted by a newbie incapable of fixing his mechanical brakes?
I think we have to chalk this topic up as one that will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction and agree among ourselves to disagree.
Marshall
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:53 AM   #66
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Excellent points Marshall.....now lets move on to Float-A-Motor installations and beat another dead horse!
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:49 PM   #67
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someone doesn't live where salt is :P in my 14 years driving Ive had to replace 3 brake lines due to rust and them blowing out on a 95 s10 and 02 blazer. Also have gone through 2 master cyl and 4 rear wheel cyl on my 80 chevette due to leaks.

Both s10 and blazer have had to get the fuel lines replaced for same salty rusty reasons.
Seaslugs, I hope you're replacing your lines with Ni-Copp tubing. It does not corrode like steel lines do.

As for mechanical vs hydraulic brakes I do not see an advantage of one over the other when using stock profile tires. Once the tire skids it all over. Hydraulics may have an advantage on a modified car with fatter tires.

And yes maintenance on BOTH systems is a big factor. I wonder how many of us ever thought about changing our brake fluid. Moisture from the atmosphere is absorbed by brake fluid (Dot 3 and 4) and ends up in your wheel cylinders, causing corrosion and lowering the boiling point of the brake fluid.
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Old 01-08-2018, 01:26 PM   #68
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seaslugs,
Prior to moving to paradise in late 98, I lived all my life in Dayton, Ohio. Believe me, I know all about rust! And having mechanical problems with an 80 Chevette? Well duh!
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:32 PM   #69
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Excellent points Marshall.....now lets move on to Float-A-Motor installations and beat another dead horse!
I vote we move on to "What oil do you use?" or is which thing we move on to going to start another debate?
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:40 PM   #70
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seaslugs,
Prior to moving to paradise in late 98, I lived all my life in Dayton, Ohio. Believe me, I know all about rust! And having mechanical problems with an 80 Chevette? Well duh!
yea haha "chevette" and "brake problems" ALWAYS belong in the same sentence... i really dont know why its such a bad system as theres nothing weird about it vs anything else at that time to present even.

Heh funniest time my dad blew a brake line was just turning into our maybe 1* grade driveway - turned hit the brakes and nothing - before he could react and stop the car he already hit the garage door and bumped the other car inside. Thankfully everything involved was made of steel and was able to bend the door back out and no damage to the cars due to actual steel/chrome bumpers!

Seemed every year or at least every other year we were replacing a brake line on one car or another.
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:45 PM   #71
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Marshall,

Wish you'd posted that at the beginning of this thread! Or did everybody post their comments while you were typing? �� (Just kidding, apologies in advance. Just my weird attempts at humor. I really do value your well thought out posts and contributions.)
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:51 PM   #72
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The posting you read was the edited-down SHORT version. You should have seen the first one!
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:02 PM   #73
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I hear you , been there !!!!!!!
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:03 PM   #74
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So do you guys recommend mechanical or hydraulic brakes?
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:26 PM   #75
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I recommend mechanical brakes .No brake fluid or bleeding needed .
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:36 AM   #76
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seaslugs,
Prior to moving to paradise in late 98, I lived all my life in Dayton, Ohio. Believe me, I know all about rust! And having mechanical problems with an 80 Chevette? Well duh!
I like my 91 and 99 Oldsmobiles, but on a quiet night you can hear the fuel lines and brake lines rusting away. GM must have used the poorest quality steel they could find for two of the most important safety features.
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:09 PM   #77
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An after thought here, if Ford would have used the cast Iron drums when new, instead of those heat collecting, easy warping steel drums that are imposable to recut with a 100% accuracy, that made the brakes fade once hot, there would have been a whole lot less complaints.

Herm.
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:27 PM   #78
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I agree !!! Ford didn't even recommend turning the steel drums at all . Sometime in 31 Ford started using cast iron drums. The late model A cast iron front brake drums and hubs were made in one piece .
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:37 PM   #79
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I like my 91 and 99 Oldsmobiles, but on a quiet night you can hear the fuel lines and brake lines rusting away. GM must have used the poorest quality steel they could find for two of the most important safety features.
dont forget you can hear the fuel gauge sway and cups tipping over in thier holders as well
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:12 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by denis4x4 View Post
I find the debate on the use of mechanical brakes vs. hydraulics rather disingenuous. First off, as pointed out by many on this board, the proper restoration to factory specifications of a mechanical brake system is the answer to good braking. I concur. On the other hand, the naysayers of hydraulic systems point out to failures without noting the condition of the hydraulic system.

My choice of hydraulic brakes on my A's is based on the fact that I drive them almost on a daily basis. Both of my A's have been on the chassis dyno and produced 59 and 60 horsepower at the rear wheels. Like those people pointing out failures in hydraulic systems, I had a failure with a mechanical system and blew through a stop light due to severe brake fade with a car that had a properly adjusted system.

Like any braking system, maintaining a hydraulic system is just as important. In the interest of safety, I'm also using a clip to retain the drum in the event of a broken axle.

In the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get a long"
In post #60..
In your photo,...is it upside down ( I don't think so ), where's the rear spring? Or,..are you running the backing plates upside down?

If the plates are upside down, how do you bleed the air out of the cylinders?
You need to flip the cylinders, and YES, I know about the staggered cylinder
diameter..
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Old 01-10-2018, 04:38 PM   #81
denis4x4
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Default Re: Bogus

Photo is upside down
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