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Old 02-15-2018, 02:18 PM   #1
AnthonyG
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Default Switching to juice brake question

I'm am in the process of switching my '35 to juice brakes. I have ordered the from Early V8 Garage his master cylinder & e-brake conversion brackets which U use a 1940 or newer master and bolts to existing mounting features plus 1 extra frame hole. I want to use the Bendix style Lincoln's on the rear & disc conversion on front ( all from speedway).
QUESTION:- Will the 1940 single stage master cylinder be enough to power both the rear Bendix's and the front disc's? Will the system need anything else for good braking? Wondering if enough pedal stroke & stopping ability?
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

I think you'll need at least a residual valve for the front . There going to be higher than the Master . I've done a few disc conversions and always used a master from a 70 ish Ford Mustang with disc . This will require another adapter to go from 3 bolt to 2 bolt .
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

I believe the problem with that mod is the '70's ford mustang is a dual master cylinder set up. For the early V8 Garage conversion to fit the '35 mounting features and fit in the stock space I need to use the '40 to '48 Master Cyl. Trying to use with minimal modification.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

Nomad, you are not going to be satisfied with the single chamber master cylinder when runnining front disc brakes. Those old naster cylinders were adequate for the old four wheel drum brakes but not for modern discs. I guarntee you that you will be disatisfied with the old-type master cylinder. Do yourself a favor and anyone who rides with you, use a modern two chamber master cylinder.

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Old 02-15-2018, 03:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

If you are more or less tied in to using the stock early Ford Master cylinder, you might do better to fit the Bendix brakes on the front, and use 40 style on the back. This setup has been mentioned as a good combination by Barners before.

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Old 02-15-2018, 03:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

Mike, have you heard of anyone using the stock master cylinder in the tight local stock area as a slave to a remote mounted power booster/dual cylinder setup mounted in another location. Using the stock rod plunger piston stock cylinder to feed the remote booster?
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

Mart, I have considered that and will go that route if I have too. But would really like the disc setup in the front if I can figure something out.
Thx
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

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Originally Posted by Mart View Post
If you are more or less tied in to using the stock early Ford Master cylinder, you might do better to fit the Bendix brakes on the front, and use 40 style on the back. This setup has been mentioned as a good combination by Barners before.

Mart.
Anthony....Mart is spot-on suggesting the MT-type Bendix brakes in the front, a!long with the '40-'48 Ford Lockheed brakes in the rear. That combination works extremely well together, and the braking quality is tremendously improved over stock. This combination also does away with the problems encountered when trying to match fluid volume and pressure requirements of disc brake calipers with a stock diameter Master Cylinder. DD
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
I believe the problem with that mod is the '70's ford mustang is a dual master cylinder set up. For the early V8 Garage conversion to fit the '35 mounting features and fit in the stock space I need to use the '40 to '48 Master Cyl. Trying to use with minimal modification.
You will not be happy . It still requires a residual valve and proportional valve
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

Are you planning on running the original wire wheels? If so, be sure to check their fit on the disc brakes. Another thing is that the disc brakes will throw a lot of dust on the wire wheels. What is the reason you want to run discs?

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Old 02-15-2018, 05:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

Not really sure why you would want disc brakes on the front when it is a setup that will not provide adequate stopping. Disc require increased pressure that is not well suited to this type of installation. I would check with Early V8, I am fairly sure they will advise against it. With the brackets and master cylinder you are wanting to use you need the drum brakes on the front. If you are wanting the disc brakes you will need a different type of master cylinder installation.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

DD, or anyone, I've been reading/commenting on thread Flathead Ted's been commenting on ( https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238338 ) possibly creating a conversion of the juice Lockheed brakes to a Bendix style operation similar to what he does with the energizer kit for the mechanical. That sounds like a great idea. have you seen anything on it?
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

Understood J, was hoping to modify setup with portioning valve to fronts to accommodate. If I can't I'll go with the Lincoln Bendix on front and Lockheed on rear as Mart suggested. Just thought while doing I'd make as technically up to date as possible.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

I think the problem will be that the disc brakes (and I use them on a lot of applications, so I'm not anti-disc brakes) have requirements to work properly that do not lead themselves to the early single master cylinders.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

J, how much is involved to modify '35 to accept the dual cylinder master?
#2 Ggmac suggests '70's mustang type? I see Speedway has a couple. One replaces clutch linkage with hydraulics too?
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:16 PM   #16
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

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J, how much is involved to modify '35 to accept the dual cylinder master?
#2 Ggmac suggests '70's mustang type? I see Speedway has a couple. One replaces clutch linkage with hydraulics too?
Be careful , read all the speedway stuff . It's a great company but I think the pedal master assembly is for an aftermarket frame . There's an adapter made to convert the 3 bolt orig Master to the 2 bolt . The speedway master cyl usually has the residual valves built in .
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

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J, how much is involved to modify '35 to accept the dual cylinder master?
I like to use a bell-crank setup with a rod from the original brake pedal to a bell-crank then to the master cylinder. Problem is that is not an off the shelf type of setup you can just purchase. You would most likely have to custom build it. This is an example of that type of setup (not my photo). This is obviously not a dual master cylinder, but there should be room for one. Brackets could be made bolt-in vs weld.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

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Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Not really sure why you would want disc brakes on the front when it is a setup that will not provide adequate stopping. Disc require increased pressure that is not well suited to this type of installation. I would check with Early V8, I am fairly sure they will advise against it. With the brackets and master cylinder you are wanting to use you need the drum brakes on the front. If you are wanting the disc brakes you will need a different type of master cylinder installation.
Anthony.....As JSeery points out, discs require very high pressures to function properly AND to do it with a reasonably light PEDAL pressure. Proper pressures can only be accomplished by using vacuum boosters (certainly not a good option when space is at a premium), or by adjusting the diameter of the MASTER CYLINDER BORE that is feeding the bores of your chosen calipers. You also cannot forget the stroke on the M/C, making sure that caliper VOLUME requirements are also met.

I have no idea about what Flathead Ted may be concocting. But be assured that making master cylinders work CORRECTLY with wheel cylinders or calipers involves serious matching of cylinder BORE on BOTH pieces to function comfortably, as well as PROPERLY. Adjusting bore diameter on either type cylinder in your system will change the operating PEDAL pressure requirements, not to mention pedal STROKE requirements. DD
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:38 PM   #19
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

I had bendix front brakes and ford rear with Ford single master cylinder. The pedal effort was too much. Hard to get a good stop. The early Ford master cylinder has a larger than 1 inch bore.

I put the Mustang 1 inch bore master cylinder on and it was like power brakes.

I would suggest that you contact Richard at early v8 about this. He could also advise you on the pedal
travel.

John

Last edited by john in illinois; 02-15-2018 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: Switching to juice brake question

John, I spoke in length to Rich a few hours ago & yesterday at length. He's a great guy and was very patient spending over an hour with me. I am convinced now based on his design & expertise it is ill-advisable even unsafe to try to set up Disc fronts combined with the Bendix rears using his '39 to '48 master cylinder bracket modification. Impossible to balance with enough hydraulic force to front disc's & rear Bendix. In my case while what you did sounds great with the Mustang M-cyl. I didn't want that much modification to the existing features. As I had read your response before the last call to him today I asked him about your previous Bendix front Lockheed Ford rear poor stopping (requiring too much foot pressure). He indicated the Lockheed brakes did't apply pressure to both sides of the linings and is the problem. Indicated with the Bendix style front & rear you get full pressure on both sides of the linings on all four making the foot pressure much easier and with very good stopping. After all the discussion with him I am convinced I will not go with discs and go with the Lincoln drum Bendix style front & rear. I'll be buying the master cyl., conversion bracket & e-brake bracket parts from Rich. The rest of the parts i.e., Bendix kits, hubs, drums and other required parts from Speedway and MT products to keep pricing down a bit.
Thx to all for all the good advise.
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