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Old 06-19-2022, 08:06 AM   #1
Ziggster
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Default Oil Pump Rebuild Question

I want to tear down my C59A pump and possibly “rebuild” if necessary, but I’ve searched here and in the imterweeb, and really couldn’t find much info. I seem to recall based on past searches last year, the consensus seemed to be to keep the OEM vs buying newer “Chinese” manufactured pumps due to failures. I have two pumps. The “original” (stamped/cast with 8BA6604B) from the motor I purchased and one I picked up along the way somewhere (just stamped/cast with USA and H2). I don’t feel any end play in the “original” whereas I feel a bit in the other one and it makes a metallic clicking noise when I pull on the gear end of the shaft. The other pump also has some kind of splash shield, and I was wondering if this would be beneficial if I switched it to the “original” pump. Is there some info on the specs I could use to make sure my pump is good to go?

The “original” pump.
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Old 06-19-2022, 08:09 AM   #2
Ziggster
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

The “other” pump (seems like an aftermarket version) with “splash” shield. Nice wire job. Lol!
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Old 06-19-2022, 10:53 AM   #3
cas3
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

I like to use original pumps. Main thing is that the gears have not touched the side of the housing and scored it up, and the gears have not scored up the bottom where they seat. The top cover can be cleaned up on a flat surface with some 320 grit, or flipped over, and the clearance between the cover and the gears should be minimal. I forget that spec, maybe one of our engine builders can chime in here.
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Old 06-19-2022, 11:15 AM   #4
rotorwrench
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

The 8BA type pump has it's own pressure relief valve. The early engines like the prewar V8s and post war 59 series (C69 also in Canada) had the pressure relief valve just above the front of the cam in the tappet galley. The oil bypassed for pressure relief sort of squirts out into the timing chest where it lubricates the gears. An 8BA pump will fit but then the engine will have two relief valves. I would stick with the 59 series pump myself.
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Old 06-19-2022, 11:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Got it all apart. Was a bit of a pain getting the pin out from the top gear. The pin came out bent. Very strange. With the end gear plate removed, it has just over 0.020” on the main shaft and none with the cover plate installed. Cover plate is free from any scoring. Lower gear teeth look good. I cleaned out the pick-up strainer with the pressure washer and removed the dent from the shroud. Also removed the tacked little bracket holding the pick-up tube in place. I’ll braze the pick-up tube in place.
Thanks for the tips @cas3. Interesting fact about the 8BA pump having an internal pressure relief bs having that feature in the earlier blocks. I don’t recall reading that anywhere. Read that high flow pumps are not good for stock rotating tolerances and can lead to problems. All you see when you search oil pumps for flatheads are the high-flow pumps. Lol!
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Old 06-19-2022, 11:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

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Also read that the 8BA was better (more flow) than the earlier pumps because it had helical cut gears vs straight cut gears for the previous versions. I’ll send pics when my iPad is charged up. Too hard on the phone.
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Old 06-19-2022, 02:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Sump shroud before “tuning”. It had a flat section in one area. I removed the small hat section that was holding the pick-up tube in place because it had partially pulled away, and due to the rust between it and the tube.
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Old 06-19-2022, 02:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Pick-up screen before and after cleaning with pressure washer.
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Old 06-19-2022, 02:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Sump pick-up shroud after tuning and wire wheel, and brazed on pick-up tube. I blew thru where one of welds was for the hat section, so added a little extra braze material.
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Old 06-19-2022, 02:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

I seem to remember that (in 8BA's at least), the one measurement you could check was the clearance between the bottom plate and the ends of the gears. You checked it with "plasti-gage" and set it using variable gasket thicknesses. The figure .008" comes to mind, but I'll have to check when I can get back to my shop.
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Old 06-19-2022, 06:59 PM   #11
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

8BA is an excellent pump,,,,,,Motors Manual has all the clearance specs for the pump in them .
And if you use the 8BA,,,,,you can remove the pressure relief in the front of the engine.
Those factory pumps were built to last,,,,mine had the clearance on most dimensions in the middle of the spec .
I still tightened it a little by some cleanup of the cover plate,,,and the end gear clearance.

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Old 06-19-2022, 09:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Upon closer inspection, the gear cover plate in the 8BA pump is scored more than I initially thought. There is also some pitting from corrosion where the driven gear makes contact with plate. The pic of it is after touching it up with some 600 grit paper. So, I popped off the gear cover plate on the “aftermarket” pump (one of the four screws had a different head diameter - Lol!), and noticed right away it is thicker, and the gear set mating surface is in much better condition. The driven gear mating surface on the cover plate is slightly worn, but I’ll see once I touch it up with some 600 grit paper as well.
I also noticed that the pick-up tube opening in the “aftermarket” pump sits further into the oil than the 8BA pump. I wonder if that is an important difference?
I also found the spec for the clearance, in a book written by George McNicholl called How to Build Ford Flathead V8 Horsepower, he says the clearance between the gears and the cover should be 0.00025” without the gasket. It has to be a misprint.

Last edited by Ziggster; 07-14-2022 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 06-19-2022, 09:05 PM   #13
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Better pic of the excerpt from the book.
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Old 06-20-2022, 12:25 AM   #14
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

You can flip the cover over and use the virgin side, just do your sanding thing to assure that its flat. On the clearance, Tub man mentioned 6 to 8 thou I think, but Going from memory I think its tighter like crank bearing clearance , 1 1/2 to 3 thou. Please get another source than my failing memory. You are correct to clean up the housing to cover surface, and that can give you tighter clearance, thus more pressure. I once Tightened up a B pump like that to make 80psi at an idle cold !!! Too much, had to open the restriction port some more. If you have a housing that is not all scored up, you should build a good pump. Try fred, barnfind 08, maybe he has new gears and the pins they live on if yours are loose.
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Old 06-20-2022, 04:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Cleaned up the “aftermarket” cover plate with 600 grit paper on glass with a bit of water. Did the same for both gears from the 8BA pump. Cleaned up the gear teeth with a ss wire brush, and threw them in my vibratory grinder filled with crushed walnut shells for a couple of hours. Came out not too bad. Also hogged out the discharge opening. I just wanted to clean up the rough casting edges and next thing it looks twice as large. Not sure if that is good or bad, but looks better than the rough cast original opening. Lol!

Measured everything, and this what I came up with.

Driven and idler gear height: 1.303” -1.304”
Housing depth for gear set: 1.300” - 1.303”
Gear to gear tooth clearance: 0.004” - 0.006”
Gear OD to housing clearance: less than 0.002” (thinnest feeler gauge I have is 0.002” and it won’t fit between the gear and the housing

As you can see, the gears are higher than the depth of the housing by a bit. You can feel the difference when you run, your fingernail across both surface and definitely when I loosely install the cover plate. I thought it was supposed to be the other way? Meaning, the gears were supposed to be shorter in height than the housing depth for the gears. So, I decided to order the gasket which I hope will solve this issue, but it will take one to two weeks to get here from the USA.

Some pics...

Last edited by Ziggster; 07-14-2022 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 06-20-2022, 04:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Also saw a similar “splash” shield to mine for sale on eBay. Seller is asking USD$240.00. Is this thing really that special, and should I swap the one I have onto my 8BA pump?

Last edited by Ziggster; 06-20-2022 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 06-20-2022, 05:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

I believe that "shield" is made to work with a late Mercury oil pan which incorporates a windage tray. The shield seals off the opening used when installing the pan over the pump and suction screen. They are a bit hard to find.
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Old 06-20-2022, 05:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

As cadillac512 said the "shield" is a 48-51 Mercury part, the oil pump pickup (I'm currently looking for one that doesn't cost an arm and leg). The pump itself is the same Ford or Mercury, the pickup is what is different.
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Old 06-20-2022, 05:42 PM   #19
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by 38 coupe View Post
As cadillac512 said the "shield" is a 48-51 Mercury part, the oil pump pickup (I'm currently looking for one that doesn't cost an arm and leg). The pump itself is the same Ford or Mercury, the pickup is what is different.
If you’re interested in the one I have, send me a PM.
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Old 06-20-2022, 07:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: Oil Pump Rebuild Question

Those gears look to be in excellent condition,,,,I would use them .
The housing opening will work great,,,,you opened it a fair amount,,,,it should aid the flow .
The cover plate will be fine,,,,,,it doesn’t have to be perfect,,,,,,,but get it as good as you can .
Yes,,,,,the gears will be above the surface of the pump body by a hair,,,,,the gasket will make them clear the cover plate .
Check the end clearance,,,,,driven gear to housing end,,,,,I can’t remember,,,,,but I think the book calls for about 8 or there about ,,,,,mine had 20 on the end .
I actually tightened mine up by resetting the gear onto the shaft in a press .
After 70 years,,,,the gear had moved somewhat .
If you need me to ,,,I can look up these specs in the Motors Manual,,,,,,it has everything in it .

Tommy
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