68A seat base

[Russ B]

I am almost done with building a new seat base frame for my Aug. '29 Cabriolet (no glue, no screws yet). I mostly built it using dimensions measured or extrapolated from my original seat frame.


I do not know about all the other cabriolet fixed seat bases; but what is interesting to me is that mine was built as two separate assemblies. The upper base is to mount the spring assembly; and the lower base assembly sits directly on the seat riser, and the finish layer of fabric is attached to this lower assembly. The two assemblies are screwed together as can be seen below, 4 screws per side.


The stacked assemblies with original seat base spring are shown below

As can be seen, the spring mount assembly is a couple inches shorter front to rear than the lower base; but the back corners of each line up pretty well at the back edge.

...and the new spring base. I duplicated two 1" holes found at the front, but have no real knowledge as to their purpose. My guess is they would be for jigging up the base and spring assemblies during its original construction. My old spring assembly has a front to rear slot that lines up with the holes. Two additional holes were originally drilled part way through this cross piece near the center of the board, on its upper side.


...and the new seat riser assembly.

the bottom outer edge of each was routed down about 1/16" by about 3/4" + wide. I am guessing the upper, spring mount assembly was partially upholstered after the spring was attached, but without the finish layer of fabric. There is some fabric left between the two wood assemblies on my original, but scraps of the original grey check fabric are attached to the bottom wood assembly's routed edge.

the two assemblies stacked, upside down.


I would welcome any comments on how you think the seat base was originally covered. While I am not doing a real restoration, I am always interested in how everything was originally assembled. Fellow Ford Barner - Eystein helped with photos and dimensions of other cabriolet seat bases and he is currently building a seat base for his cabriolet. It was not evident if other cabriolets originally had this two assembly manner of seat base construction.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Someone else will need to chime in with specifics. However it appears you have an original spring base as well as an extra spring base from a later 68-B with adjustable seat carriage.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Someone else will need to chime in with specifics. However it appears you have an original spring base as well as an extra spring base from a later 68-B with adjustable seat carriage.

It sort of looked like two bases stacked to me also, but since the car has been in my family since day one, and with me since '59, I have my doubts that anyone would have made that sort of modification. Almost all the years before me it was driven solely by my grandmother in very rural northern CA. It is unlikely that she would have ever made that sort of change, or even had access to parts from another cabriolet. ...but it is strange! I would like to hear from others.

[eystein]

Russ,

I've been meaning to Email you about this, but have been to pressed for time lately.

Now, I hear what you are saying about the known history of your car in the family. However, the idea that the seat has been repaired by superpositioning a frame with springs from an adjustable seat model is very attractive. The second frame looks very much like that of an adjustable seat model.

Please see the attached photo from an adjustable seat model that I have measured up.

I think you should take care using the springs that you have got, as I think that the springs for the adjustable seat model are smaller than for the fixed seat model. I have got some fixed seat repro springs from Snyders in transit. They should arrive within 2-3 weeks. If nobody have posted the dimensions of the springs by then I shall measure up my repros for you

[1931 flamingo]

That is some nice wood working. JMO
Paul in CT

[Terry, NJ]

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Very nice! I just built the parts for my front base/frame also. I'm having trouble with the mortise and tenon joint so I took it to a local cabinetmaker and his mortising tool doesn't go deep enough for his 10" blade (of which only 4 1/2" is available) so, how'd you do it?
Bandsaw? Milling machine? Bigger saw?
Terry

[Marco Tahtaras]

What we see in this photo is original '29 grey check seat trim which is different from later grey check. The piece remaining here is the actual finished edge of the seat cushion cover. This type of edge finishing was not used elsewhere with seat fabric.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Very nice! I just built the parts for my front base/frame also. I'm having trouble with the mortise and tenon joint so I took it to a local cabinetmaker and his mortising tool doesn't go deep enough for his 10" blade (of which only 4 1/2" is available) so, how'd you do it?
Bandsaw? Milling machine? Bigger saw?
Terry

I used my 14" band saw with a tall resaw fence.

I did not properly recreate the joints in my upper assembly (possibly for a 68B?). A smaller table saw could have done those joints (maybe 7 or 8"), but I did them the same as joints in the lower piece.

[Jerry Parr WI]

Originally Posted by Russ B

It sort of looked like two bases stacked to me also, but since the car has been in my family since day one, and with me since '59, I have my doubts that anyone would have made that sort of modification. Almost all the years before me it was driven solely by my grandmother in very rural northern CA. It is unlikely that she would have ever made that sort of change, or even had access to parts from another cabriolet. ...but it is strange! I would like to hear from others.

I think Marco is right on the money. A front seat is very easy to burn or tear. Replacement adjustable seat from a junk yard didn't fit so just fasten it to the original base with wood screws. Seems very likely easy repair to me. The lower base exactly matches my non adjustable 68B.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by eystein

Russ,

I've been meaning to Email you about this, but have been too pressed for time lately.

Now, I hear what you are saying about the known history of your car in the family. However, the idea that the seat has been repaired by superpositioning a frame with springs from an adjustable seat model is very attractive. The second frame looks very much like that of an adjustable seat model.

Please see the attached photo from an adjustable seat model that I have measured up.

I think you should take care using the springs that you have got, as I think that the springs for the adjustable seat model are smaller than for the fixed seat model. I have got some fixed seat repro springs from Snyders in transit. They should arrive within 2-3 weeks. If nobody have posted the dimensions of the springs by then I shall measure up my repros for you

My new springs from Snyders should arrive this coming week also. That should answer some, if not all, of my confusion. The "upper" frame does indeed look very much like the adjustable one in your photo. My original has some dimensional differences. I think I sent you most of those dimensions in an earlier email. The partial holes in the center of the front piece are similarly offset as well. Interestingly, the corner joinery shown in your photo is as I built my replacement, not the same as my original.

[Russ B]

Thanks to all for the great discussion.

I am becoming convinced that my upper assembly is likely from an adjustable seat 68B. I would not have assumed that a broken seat would have been repaired by my grandmother taking the effort, or having been able, to find a cabriolet seat. Must have been a cabriolet in the junk yard at the right time. That could also explain why one door had a rough wood inner panel and the other door had a stamped inner panel when I got the car in '59.

Maybe after I get my new spring, I will be offering up a new 68B seat base, cheap, for pick up. Ha ha!

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

What we see in this photo is original '29 grey check seat trim which is different from later grey check. The piece remaining here is the actual finished edge of the seat cushion cover. This type of edge finishing was not used elsewhere with seat fabric.

Just wondering, is the Lebaron-Bonney this style or the later style? ...and is the finished edge material a sort of thin black vinyl wrapped over the edge?

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Russ B

Just wondering, is the Lebaron-Bonney this style or the later style? ...and is the finished edge material a sort of thin black vinyl wrapped over the edge?

LB makes kits for both types but in either case they are made with extra fabric which is simply cut off after installation. The original cover should have edge binding sewn on similar to the edges of carpet or convertible tops. I don't know if anyone has done it like the factory other than myself.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

LB makes kits for both types but in either case they are made with extra fabric which is simply cut off after installation. The original cover should have edge binding sewn on similar to the edges of carpet or convertible tops. I don't know if anyone has done it like the factory other than myself.

Thanks.

I find it fascinating as i study the various parts of the Model A that such a high level of effort went into the finish quality, such as this bottom of seat edge that goes virtually unnoticed. I was planning to see if my upholstery guy can economically do such an edge, when I get to that point. Eighty years later you can still see that quality!

[Terry, NJ]

Marco, would this be the same for my adjustable seal in my 30 Town Sedan?
Terry

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Someone else will need to chime in with specifics. However it appears you have an original spring base as well as an extra spring base from a later 68-B with adjustable seat carriage.

[eystein]

Marco,

I remember having observed the same treatment of the seat cover edge as you describe on photos of original seats. It must obviously provide for a more durable fixation of the cover to the frame.

Now the big problem that I can see is how du you fit the cover. It seems that you will have to precut the material to exact dimensions and sew on the edge binding before tacking.

How can you get the cover even in this way. Seems that you have to tack the material on to the frame as LB-b suggests then trim the material, remove all tacks and cover and sew on the edge binding, refit and retack.

Having trimmed off all surplus material, how do you pull the cover tighton the frame without any surplus material to pull ?

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Marco, would this be the same for my adjustable seal in my 30 Town Sedan?
Terry

Actually I'm a little confused by the shape of Russ' frame as the Coupe type carriage required the shape Eystein shows in post #4. It is relieved on the ends to clear the end panels of the carriage. The Fordor models also had a relief but shaped differently as the carriage ends were quite a bit different. There must be a Sedan version I don't recall since that is definitely a seat base for an adjustable seat.

Originally Posted by eystein

Marco,

Now the big problem that I can see is how du you fit the cover. It seems that you will have to precut the material to exact dimensions and sew on the edge binding before tacking.

Having trimmed off all surplus material, how do you pull the cover tighton the frame without any surplus material to pull ?

Ford (as well as Murray and Briggs) had an advantage in that all the components were patterned and repeatable just as is done today. The one difference is they had coils springs instead of molded foam rubber pads! The springs required a bit of compression to function as desired. I'd like to see what they used but they had to get the cover in position, place the cushion face down, then compress the spring so it could be fastened without the installer struggling. You would then release the "compressor", flip the spring back over, and whack the heck out of it with you open hand and get the cover shifted into it's proper position. They probably had heat or steam boxes to minimize problems when they did occur.

How can you get the cover even in this way. Seems that you have to tack the material on to the frame as LB-b suggests then trim the material, remove all tacks and cover and sew on the edge binding, refit and retack.

Actually you would need to install their cover and mark all seams to be sewn as well as cut lines with chalk, then remove the cover and cut, sew, etc. Obviously that is more work than most folks would care to attempt. It can also be problematic in some cases. some of their fabrics stretch too much and the stretch is relied upon to get a respectable fit. Additionally, those same fabrics would have to be sewn carefully with a moderately fine stitch at the binding so the loose weave of the fabric won't just tear out. Originally these fabrics were laminated to a layer of thin cotton muslin on the seat facings (or skirt) only which made the fabric strong and resilient. I did just that on the Coupe below 20+ years ago. I had located some old stock grey check and chose to duplicate Ford's version in every detail possible. It's pretty cool to be able to do silly things like remove the cushion to get at the tools and still feel like it's the "real thing".

[Marco Tahtaras]

I should have noted (even though we've drifted off-topic), when I was doing this stuff I basically marked the padded spring where seams needed to be. I pinned each of the sections in place and marked them one by one. All sections were trimmed to their marks and the entire cover sewn, finished, and installed. It doesn't require all the steps as altering the work from someone else. That isn't to suggest it's either fast or easy because it isn't either!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Here are some pictures of an original June 1928 Tudor rear seat, if they are of any help. Where the cloth is fastened over the wood, the wood is recessed a little.

[eystein]

I am thinking that there is no saying that Russ's top frame does definately come from a Cabriolet. Probably, the garage owner who fixed the seat at some time just told his apprentice "Go and find me a good Ford seat cushion over at the scrappers" So I guess it could be from any model A body style. I am glad to hear that Marco thinks that my seat frame is correct for a Cabriolet, as I have got a friend who is building an adjustable seat Cabriolet and who probably will have that frame. Now incidentally, he has also got a 160-C and we were comparing the seat frames last week. If memory serves me right, it did look like Russ's top frame. (without the wider section that my frame has got to the front of the carriage side panels)


[QUOTE=Marco Tahtaras;571254]Actually I'm a little confused by the shape of Russ' frame as the Coupe type carriage required the shape Eystein shows in post #4. It is relieved on the ends to clear the end panels of the carriage. The Fordor models also had a relief but shaped differently as the carriage ends were quite a bit different. There must be a Sedan version I don't recall since that is definitely a seat base for an adjustable seat.

[eystein]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Actually you would need to install their cover and mark all seams to be sewn as well as cut lines with chalk, then remove the cover and cut, sew, etc. Obviously that is more work than most folks would care to attempt. It can also be problematic in some cases. some of their fabrics stretch too much and the stretch is relied upon to get a respectable fit. Additionally, those same fabrics would have to be sewn carefully with a moderately fine stitch at the binding so the loose weave of the fabric won't just tear out. Originally these fabrics were laminated to a layer of thin cotton muslin on the seat facings (or skirt) only which made the fabric strong and resilient. I did just that on the Coupe below 20+ years ago. I had located some old stock grey check and chose to duplicate Ford's version in every detail possible. It's pretty cool to be able to do silly things like remove the cushion to get at the tools and still feel like it's the "real thing".

Marco,

What material and Color would the edge binding be for a 1930 fixed seat Cabriolet ?

I am thinking that I might use the same brown simulated leather binding that LB-B supplies to finish the T14-GT top.

How did you laminate the muslin to the fabric ? Spray glue ?

Did you laminate the whole fabric side piece before sewing together with the cushion top material ? I guess that it is futile to do this after I receive the kit from LB-B, as I would want the muslin to be stitched together with the fabric at the seam with the cushion top cover and go all the way down to where the sides are tacked to the frame ?

[Russ B]

Just a confirmation on the seat base, I received my seat springs fron Snyders and the bottom spring set nicely, almost perfectly, fits the lower base I built.

I guess I have an extra wood base of uncertain origin for a sliding seat! It would appear to be for an adjustible seat that did not have a "skirt" around the back sides. did all the sedan versions have the skirt feature?

Thanks again to all for the input to this discussion.

[eystein]

Russ,

As I said in the post above, your frame resembles the frame on the 160-C, so I am speculating that this could be a frame that would fit all Slant Windshield models, or perhaps all the models with the metal base carrier assembly ?

I will try to remember to check the dimensions next time I go to my friends garage, or perhaps if he sees this post, he might answer.

[Terry, NJ]

Russ, As I said before, I'm making these same seat parts for my Town Sedan. and the top piece is so far gone that I can't get any dimensions from it. I did get the width of the front piece (38" X 2 7/8") and I have the width of the side pieces (3 5/8") What I need is the width and location of the center piece and the length of the side pieces and the length and width and location of the rear piece. The holes (3/4") at the front are for the pegs/ studs/lugs that locate the top frame to the bottom frame. Thanks i advance!
Terry

Originally Posted by Russ B

I am almost done with building a new seat base frame for my Aug. '29 Cabriolet (no glue, no screws yet). I mostly built it using dimensions measured or extrapolated from my original seat frame.


I do not know about all the other cabriolet fixed seat bases; but what is interesting to me is that mine was built as two separate assemblies. The upper base is to mount the spring assembly; and the lower base assembly sits directly on the seat riser, and the finish layer of fabric is attached to this lower assembly. The two assemblies are screwed together as can be seen below, 4 screws per side.


The stacked assemblies with original seat base spring are shown below

As can be seen, the spring mount assembly is a couple inches shorter front to rear than the lower base; but the back corners of each line up pretty well at the back edge.

...and the new spring base. I duplicated two 1" holes found at the front, but have no real knowledge as to their purpose. My guess is they would be for jigging up the base and spring assemblies during its original construction. My old spring assembly has a front to rear slot that lines up with the holes. Two additional holes were originally drilled part way through this cross piece near the center of the board, on its upper side.


...and the new seat riser assembly.

the bottom outer edge of each was routed down about 1/16" by about 3/4" + wide. I am guessing the upper, spring mount assembly was partially upholstered after the spring was attached, but without the finish layer of fabric. There is some fabric left between the two wood assemblies on my original, but scraps of the original grey check fabric are attached to the bottom wood assembly's routed edge.

the two assemblies stacked, upside down.


I would welcome any comments on how you think the seat base was originally covered. While I am not doing a real restoration, I am always interested in how everything was originally assembled. Fellow Ford Barner - Eystein helped with photos and dimensions of other cabriolet seat bases and he is currently building a seat base for his cabriolet. It was not evident if other cabriolets originally had this two assembly manner of seat base construction.

[Marco Tahtaras]

I intended to post this a couple weeks ago as a point of interest applicable to the subject at hand.