Head Bolts won't line up

[rogeroadster]

I'm installing a cast iron Cragar head on a B block and I'm using bolts rather than studs due to firewall clearance. If I install the bolts beginning from the rear and working forward with just enough threads to get them started, the left front hole in the block will not line up enough to get the bolt started. If I work from front to rear, the left and center rear bolts will not line up. The block does not appear to have been machined in any way that would move the location of any of the bolt holes. I've tried grinding a taper on the bolt to get it to start but it doesn't help. Anybody got any good ideas? I may have to go to studs but would like to hear from someone who might have had this problem before.
Studs are undesirable because this engine is installed in a model T and the engine setback into the firewall keeps me from lifting the head over the studs. If I should ever need to change a head gasket I would have to pull the motor to get the head off.

[tbirdtbird]

try it on another block to see what happens

[Flathead]

Will a stock flat head fit? If it does you likely have a problem with the hole placement in the Cragar.

[Deny1950]

Hi how much is it out, if not much like ten thou or so you could diy grind the hole a bit on that side, it can't be out by much. Some other guys will chime in with maybe better ideas

[quickchange]

Are not studs thinner in the shank than threaded potion ? Maybe you can turn the unthreaded area down to give more clearance , Bore head hole out or just send it to me Ill pay the freight .

[rogeroadster]

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Originally Posted by Flathead

Will a stock flat head fit? If it does you likely have a problem with the hole placement in the Cragar.

Some good ideas already, thanks. I took a stock head off this newly rebuilt motor, changed the cam and now I'm trying to install the freshly rebuilt Cragar on this block. The previous owner of the head says he ran it for 20K miles using bolts on a B block.

[RUNNERBUN]

The bolt holes in the head could have been thrown out of alignment if the head had been warped and then re-surface flat again. Maybe reaming out the holes a few thou. with an adjustable reamer would solve your problem.

[rogeroadster]

Originally Posted by RUNNERBUN

The bolt holes in the head could have been thrown out of alignment if the head had been warped and then re-surface flat again. Maybe reaming out the holes a few thou. with an adjustable reamer would solve your problem.

Thanks, another good thought.

[colin1928]

Originally Posted by rogeroadster

I'm installing a cast iron Cragar head on a B block and I'm using bolts rather than studs due to firewall clearance. If I install the bolts beginning from the rear and working forward with just enough threads to get them started, the left front hole in the block will not line up enough to get the bolt started. If I work from front to rear, the left and center rear bolts will not line up. The block does not appear to have been machined in any way that would move the location of any of the bolt holes. I've tried grinding a taper on the bolt to get it to start but it doesn't help. Anybody got any good ideas? I may have to go to studs but would like to hear from someone who might have had this problem before.
Studs are undesirable because this engine is installed in a model T and the engine setback into the firewall keeps me from lifting the head over the studs. If I should ever need to change a head gasket I would have to pull the motor to get the head off.

I have had a few Cragar / Miller heads of the years still have 1 in use
I think you find not all the Cragar head gasket have the stud/bolt holes punched perfect they are not high volume most were made long ago you sometimes need to tide up 1 or 2 spots

[Jon]

Are you not concerned that the holes in the block are a course thread? I don't know this for a fact but would suspect it would be harder to get proper torque?

[colin1928]

Guys when Ford went from studs to bolts on the V8 it did not cause problems

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Jon

Are you not concerned that the holes in the block are a course thread? I don't know this for a fact but would suspect it would be harder to get proper torque?

Ever looked at the bolt holes in a small block chevy or ford?

[George Miller]

All engine blocks that I worked on are coarse thread. You would never use a fine thread for cast block.

I would get a .015 over size drill bit, and drill out the holes that are off. Or use a 15/32 on the hole that does not line up.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

I had SO much trouble getting the heads off Minerva & Vermin, I drilled the holes in the head 1/32" oversize.
Bill W.

[rogeroadster]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

try it on another block to see what happens

Going to try this today. thanks, I'll report my findings tonight.

[Tod]

I don't know how thick the material is on the head you are talking about but Snyder told me they had occasional problems with bolt holes from the shop that machined the 5.5:1 heads before I took them over. They were not peck drilling them and so there was wandering of the drill. This may have happened with this head you have. It would most likely present itself towards the end of the drill's life. I use only carbide tipped drills and flood them with coolant and peck the drill at .150 per peck. I have had to start programs over after drilling is finished and when the drilling portion runs again there is no sound coming from the drill re-drilling the drilled holes. That's when you know you have things in order.

Tod

[Jim Brierley]

If it's a Denver Miller, I would suspect the head is off a little. I once had a new one and the push-rod holes were not drilled all the way through.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Jon

Are you not concerned that the holes in the block are a course thread? I don't know this for a fact but would suspect it would be harder to get proper torque?

I agree that when tightening the coarse thread it will take a little more torque to arrive at the same clamping force.

[Big hammer]

I agree with Tom's statement. Clamping loads are less with course threads BUT also--
the maximum torque is also less!! Oh the fun of modifying!

[rogeroadster]

Originally Posted by rogeroadster

Going to try this today. thanks, I'll report my findings tonight.

Well, it looks like it is the head. Today I tried the head on another B block with similar results. I think I will probably put the head on the Bridgeport and elongate that one hole.

[rogeroadster]

Originally Posted by Jim Brierley

If it's a Denver Miller, I would suspect the head is off a little. I once had a new one and the push-rod holes were not drilled all the way through.

Jim, do you mean a Miller head produced in Denver? Are all Miller heads slanted on the left side? I believe mine is a Cragar since it is square all around. Of course, mine now has a Brierley cam.

[noboD]

Originally Posted by George Miller

All engine blocks that I worked on are coarse thread. You would never use a fine thread for cast block.

I would get a .015 over size drill bit, and drill out the holes that are off. Or use a 15/32 on the hole that does not line up.

George, you need to invest in a Dodge Brothers. Their head studs are fine thread in the block, 7/16 X 20 if I remember right. It goes against everything I know as a lifelong machinist. Rogeroadster, I'm glad you figured it out, sounds like an easy fix.

[rogeroadster]

Originally Posted by noboD

Rogeroadster, I'm glad you figured it out, sounds like an easy fix.

Yeah, with a little help from you guys. Hopefully I won't elongate that hole right into a water jacket.

[rogeroadster]

Originally Posted by Tod

I don't know how thick the material is on the head you are talking about but Snyder told me they had occasional problems with bolt holes from the shop that machined the 5.5:1 heads before I took them over. They were not peck drilling them and so there was wandering of the drill. This may have happened with this head you have. It would most likely present itself towards the end of the drill's life. I use only carbide tipped drills and flood them with coolant and peck the drill at .150 per peck. I have had to start programs over after drilling is finished and when the drilling portion runs again there is no sound coming from the drill re-drilling the drilled holes. That's when you know you have things in order.

Tod

Not to hijack my own thread but what are the advantages of peck drilling? Do you have a program that does this or must you manually feed .150 each time? The head is 4" thick.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by rogeroadster

Jim, do you mean a Miller head produced in Denver? Are all Miller heads slanted on the left side? I believe mine is a Cragar since it is square all around. Of course, mine now has a Brierley cam.

From the picture that you show, that is a 'cragar' rocker box cover, produced in LA.
Since there were a number of different rocker boxes made, and they all fit other such heads, by itself, that does not prove anything about who made this head.
Is there a large 'A' in the corner, top of head...outside the rocker box ?

BTW..what LENGTH of bolts are you using/going to use ? Got to be careful there also.

[noboD]

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Originally Posted by rogeroadster

Not to hijack my own thread but what are the advantages of peck drilling? Do you have a program that does this or must you manually feed .150 each time? The head is 4" thick.

If you force a drill bit through solid material it will most likely lead off to one side. The hole will not be straight. By pecking the drill has time to correct itself on it's travel through the darkness. It can be done by hand or CNC program.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by noboD

If you force a drill bit through solid material it will most likely lead off to one side. The hole will not be straight. By pecking the drill has time to correct itself on it's travel through the darkness. It can be done by hand or CNC program.

This pretty much sums it up. Plus, pecking allows coolant to access the inside bottom of the hole and the whole length of the drill to keep things from overheating and to keep the drill lubricated, as well as removing unwanted chips. Small increments are not bad when a CNC machine is doing it because they rapid travel in and out of the hole so quickly.

Tod

[rogeroadster]

Originally Posted by Tod

This pretty much sums it up. Plus, pecking allows coolant to access the inside bottom of the hole and the whole length of the drill to keep things from overheating and to keep the drill lubricated, as well as removing unwanted chips. Small increments are not bad when a CNC machine is doing it because they rapid travel in and out of the hole so quickly.

Tod

Thanks, that's a new term for me...just when you think you've heard it all.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by rogeroadster

Thanks, that's a new term for me...just when you think you've heard it all.

Here is a youtube link that gives the basic idea, although they don't put the volume of coolant on it that I do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ximZvUWhGZo


Tod

[MrBruce]

Roger, I have Chevy main bolts on my B and have used them on many B's. I like the look and no seaping of water.

[rogeroadster]

Further inspection reveals...Looks like someone has modified this head (shouldn't be surprised, these things have had long and colorful lives). Looks like the original hole size is 15/32, the left front hole has been counter bored to 1/2" all but about the last 1/2"of the depth of the hole then it remains 15/32". The left rear hole has been drilled out to 5/8" and then sleeved with a copper tube and reamed to 31/64". I'm thinking about reaming the left front hole the rest of the way to a size of 31/64". Does this sound dangerous?

[jetmek]

some one may have tried to repair cracks by installing sleeves in bolt holes. I had a damaged miller head that was repaired that way. be sure to pressure test it. Also check your pushrod side clearance particularly if you are plugging the stock valve seats in the block with aluminum inserts. I found the rocker tips and tappets did not align causing the pushrods to rub on the insert.

[rogeroadster]

Originally Posted by jetmek

some one may have tried to repair cracks by installing sleeves in bolt holes. I had a damaged miller head that was repaired that way. be sure to pressure test it. Also check your pushrod side clearance particularly if you are plugging the stock valve seats in the block with aluminum inserts. I found the rocker tips and tappets did not align causing the pushrods to rub on the insert.

This head was pressure tested by the seller but speaking of cracks, here's what I discovered today. The brass is a past repair and it looks like it won't be long before this reaches into the #2 combustion chamber. I guess I'll make a trip to the machine shop on Monday. Hope they can stitch it.

[rogeroadster]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

From the picture that you show, that is a 'cragar' rocker box cover, produced in LA.
Since there were a number of different rocker boxes made, and they all fit other such heads, by itself, that does not prove anything about who made this head.
Is there a large 'A' in the corner, top of head...outside the rocker box ?

BTW..what LENGTH of bolts are you using/going to use ? Got to be careful there also.

No A cast into the head but there is the numbers 5007 and NI-CH. Bolts are 7/16 by 5 1/2 grade 8. That's what came with the head.