Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-03-2021, 01:11 PM   #1
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,143
Default Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

I need to replace some body and floor rivets. I was fooling around with my air hammer and buck on some test pieces and I think I got the hang of it.

I remember reading somewhere a recommendation to anneal them first. To put them in a cast iron pot with some hot coals, etc.

Is this necessary? Curious.
Tim Ayers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2021, 01:31 PM   #2
Bob Bidonde
Senior Member
 
Bob Bidonde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,432
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

Heating the rivets males them easier to drive / squeeze. It is important that the rivets completely fill their holes.
__________________
Bob Bidonde
Bob Bidonde is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 01-03-2021, 02:14 PM   #3
wrndln
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lakeville, MN
Posts: 5,159
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

Tim,
I have purchased 3/16" brazier head rivets (and other type rivets) from Big Flats Rivet company for 10 or 12 years. They were always blackish in color and peened quite well. However the last batch of brazier head rivets I purchase about 2 or 3 years ago, like used in the floorpans, were more metal colored, kind of like unrusted steel, not blackish colored, like earlier rivets. I tried to peen several rivets in my pickup bed and all just bent over before they were set well. Obviously they were to hard. BTW, I used a real CP 3X rivet gun, not an air hammer and used a solid buck. I am not a novice in installing floorpan rivets. I called Jim Dix at Big Flats and ask him what the deal was with the newly purchased rivets I bought for him. Of course he said no one else has had had problems and if I remember correctly, also said these were a newer batch - a very large batch. I suspect they were made in China. Who know how they were made, especially in China. I ask if I should annealed them and if that would help to peen them correctly. He said it might help. So I annealed the rivets with my acetylene torch cherry red and let them cool naturally. If it helped, it didn't help much - the rivets still wouldn't set like the many rivets I had peened in my two previous model A restorations. I hate to say it, but I switched to aluminum rivets and of course they set very well. Luckily, the aluminum rivets were in non stressed places. How this kind of lets you know potential problems. If you bought the rivets recently (in the last 2 to 4 years form Big Flats), I suspect you may have the same problem as I did. Brazier head rivets are hard to find now as most are truss head and don't look right.
Rusty Nelson
wrndln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2021, 02:23 PM   #4
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Senior Member
 
BRENT in 10-uh-C's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 11,485
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

Those rivets are made of low carbon steel, so you really cannot anneal them.

Also, do not heat them. The trick to making sure the shank of the rivet actually expands is to use a Rivet gun, ...and not an air hammer. To do the waffle-head on the tip, use either a 2X or 3X rivet gun. We use a 2X on that. Have a good bucking bar to use.
__________________
.

BRENT in 10-uh-C
.
www.model-a-ford.com
...(...Finally Updated!! )

.
BRENT in 10-uh-C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2021, 02:50 PM   #5
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,143
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

Thanks, guys. I do have a good buck. Yes, the rivets I got are unfinished steel looking and were purchased from Smith & Jones Model A Parts. They seem to work well with the male part filling the hole and peening over mostly flat.

Interesting about the rivet gun vs. a air hammer. For the floor pan rivets, do you guys suggest a 2X or 3X time gun?
Tim Ayers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2021, 04:11 PM   #6
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,143
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Took a look at Big Flat Rivets site and look at what they said:

5a. It is a good idea to anneal a solid rivet before you start working with it. If the rivet is dirty and flakey it was probably factory annealed. If it's shiney and bright it was not. Just heat it up red hot and let it cool, it'll be easier to work. Don't quench it, but you knew that.
Tim Ayers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2021, 09:40 PM   #7
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,143
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

I've decided to buck up and get a rivet gun. It makes sense. I'll use it again.
Tim Ayers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2021, 06:44 PM   #8
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,367
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

There isn't a lot of difference between an pneumatic hammer and a rivet gun since both have a .401 chuck. Where the difference is most notable is that many rivet guns have either a trigger adjuster or an air valve to control the hammer blow force. I use 3X and 5X guns. The 3X (approximate 3-inch hammer movement) is good for light rivets like the aluminum aircraft types. For the large aluminum and the small steel rivets I use a 5X (approximate 5-inch hammer movement). This longer gun makes a lot of difference in the force of the hammer blows. There are larger guns but they sometimes have larger chucks & use different sets more like steel building or bridge construction types. Ford used hydro-pneumatic squeezers and the ones I've seen are big suckers with great big air hoses.

I only heat the big rivets so that I can buck them with a smaller rivet gun. I wouldn't bother to anneal the 3/16 or smaller rivets unless they work harden to a stop while bucking them and then I'd just heat then to a low color then start smashing away again.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 01-04-2021 at 06:50 PM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2021, 11:02 PM   #9
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,143
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
There isn't a lot of difference between an pneumatic hammer and a rivet gun since both have a .401 chuck. Where the difference is most notable is that many rivet guns have either a trigger adjuster or an air valve to control the hammer blow force. I use 3X and 5X guns. The 3X (approximate 3-inch hammer movement) is good for light rivets like the aluminum aircraft types. For the large aluminum and the small steel rivets I use a 5X (approximate 5-inch hammer movement). This longer gun makes a lot of difference in the force of the hammer blows. There are larger guns but they sometimes have larger chucks & use different sets more like steel building or bridge construction types. Ford used hydro-pneumatic squeezers and the ones I've seen are big suckers with great big air hoses.

I only heat the big rivets so that I can buck them with a smaller rivet gun. I wouldn't bother to anneal the 3/16 or smaller rivets unless they work harden to a stop while bucking them and then I'd just heat then to a low color then start smashing away again.
Thank you. Makes sense and I appreciate your input.
Tim Ayers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2021, 10:17 PM   #10
CabrioletDon
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 35
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

Hi, Tim...I recently set 14 1/4" rivets putting in a new front cross member, and I don't know how those relate to your rivets. I did get the rivets from Big Flats. After some trial and error, I found that heating up the rivet cherry red once it was held in place with a buck, peening with a hammer to start the head, and finishing with a 3X gun was what ultimately worked best for me. If I used the rivet gun too early, the rivet shaft tended to bend over, leading to a mis-set, drill out, and new rivet. Using the hammer in one hand and a torch in the other made alternating back and forth easier and I ended up with a better finished rivet. Don't know whether any of this will work for you, but it's what I found to do the job and make them look like original. Hope this helps! --Don
CabrioletDon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2021, 10:42 AM   #11
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,143
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CabrioletDon View Post
Hi, Tim...I recently set 14 1/4" rivets putting in a new front cross member, and I don't know how those relate to your rivets. I did get the rivets from Big Flats. After some trial and error, I found that heating up the rivet cherry red once it was held in place with a buck, peening with a hammer to start the head, and finishing with a 3X gun was what ultimately worked best for me. If I used the rivet gun too early, the rivet shaft tended to bend over, leading to a mis-set, drill out, and new rivet. Using the hammer in one hand and a torch in the other made alternating back and forth easier and I ended up with a better finished rivet. Don't know whether any of this will work for you, but it's what I found to do the job and make them look like original. Hope this helps! --Don
Hi Don:

Thank you. It does makes sense. Some of the "test" rivets did exactly what you described.
All my tests were set cold. I do think some of the rivets were a tad too long as well.

I do like the idea of a rivet gun and being able to feather the trigger vs. an air hammer that tends to come on full blast; even with a regulator.

Hope to get to it soon and I'll report back afterward.

Tim
Tim Ayers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2021, 11:13 AM   #12
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,367
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

1 and 1/2 the diameter or slightly less is acceptable for nearly all driven rivet applications as to the protrusion of the rivet prior to setting them. Too long and they will work harden before setting to near 1/2 D after the buck. Small rivets will nail over if too long in protrusion. This would apply to all rivets whether bucking them to a flat or round profile buck tail. Bucking bars with a round profile indent will only buck till the bar hits the substrate metal if it will buck that far.

The old Cleveland Pneumatic or Cleco guns were the best but difficult to find in this day and age. I think there are modern ones with the trigger adjustment on the bottom of the hand grip but they might be difficult to find. Most use an adjustable air valve that connects to the hand grip instead of throttling them with a regulator at the compressor or air manifold. My compressor runs at 125 PSI but the hose drops that to just less than 120 PSI. Dropping the pressure at the hand grip eliminated drop lag that happens when you first pull the trigger. this is caused by the length of he air hose.

Like any tool, if you use it often enough, you develop ways to make it work better for you. as you gain more experience with it.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 01-06-2021 at 11:31 AM.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2021, 11:29 AM   #13
Tim Ayers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,143
Default Re: Body & floor rivets: Anneal them first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorwrench View Post
1 and 1/2 the diameter or slightly less is acceptable for nearly all driven rivet applications as to the protrusion of the rivet prior to setting them. Too long and they will work harden before setting to near 1/2 D after the buck. Small rivets will nail over if too long in protrusion. This would apply to all rivets whether bucking them to a flat or round profile buck tail. Bucking bars with a round profile indent will only buck till the bar hits the substrate metal if it will buck that far.

The old Cleveland Pneumatic or Cleco guns were the best but difficult to find in this day and age. I think there are modern ones with the trigger adjustment on the bottom of the hand grip but they might be difficult to find. Most use an adjustable air valve that connects to the hand grip instead of throttling them with a regulator at the compressor or air manifold. My compressor runs at 125 PSI but the hose drops that to just less than 120 PSI. Dropping the pressure at the hand grip eliminated drop lag that happens when yo first pull the trigger.
Thank you!
Tim Ayers is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:25 PM.