Re-stamping engine numbers is OK.... IF...

[Cool Hand Lurker]

When the Model A left the factory the serial number was stamped on the frame and engine and the car was licensed with that number as the identification number. But parts wear out and are replaced. The engine is a part that gets replaced. The new part should bear the same identification number. That requires re-stamping the engine block. Simple.

But you hear a lot of contrary opinions on that from a lot of people, mostly wrong. Here is the federal US Code on the question, and it is legal for us law-abiding citizens to re-stamp a number so don't worry. It is "18 US Code Section 511" as shortened by myself just to eliminate a lot of repetition of extra words. If you want a word-for-word version just do an internet search for "18 US Code 511" and read the long version.

But here it is:

18 U.S. Code § 511 - Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

(a) A person who—
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(b) (EXCEPTIONS)
(1) Subsection (a) does not apply to a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to are:
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part
(D) a person who is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized by the owner

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

Very interesting. We had a wash dot state patrol years ago do a talk on licensing A's. You should have seen his face, and the rest of the club shushing me when I brought that up!!

[Mike V. Florida]

It just seems funny to me that I can not find one vehicle lawyer site that says it's ok. But everyone I find says not to do it.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

Very interesting. We had a wash dot state patrol years ago do a talk on licensing A's. You should have seen his face, and the rest of the club shushing me when I brought that up!!

I understand. It seems that everyone that can put you in jail or get you out of jail interprets that information against the car owner.

[eagle]

Common sense goes a long way, wonder why it's so scarce?

[Chris Haynes]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

California Vehicle Code Section 10751.
(a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale, receive, or have in his or her possession, any vehicle, or component part thereof, from which any serial or identification number, including, but not limited to, any number used for registration purposes, that is affixed by the manufacturer to the vehicle or component part, in whatever manner deemed proper by the manufacturer, has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, unless the vehicle or component part has attached thereto an identification number assigned or approved by the department in lieu of the manufacturer's number.
(b) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a), including a vehicle assembled with any component part which is in violation of subdivision (a), comes into the custody of a peace officer, it shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of under the conditions as provided in an order by the court having jurisdiction.  No court order providing for disposition shall be issued unless the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, are provided a postseizure hearing by the court having jurisdiction within 90 days after the seizure.  This subdivision shall not apply with respect to a seized vehicle or component part used as evidence in any criminal action or proceeding.  Nothing in this section shall, however, preclude the return of a seized vehicle or a component part to the owner by the seizing agency following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership and, if determined necessary, upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department.
(c) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a) comes into the custody of a peace officer, the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, shall be notified within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure, of the date, time, and place of the hearing required in subdivision (b).  The notice shall contain the information specified in subdivision (d).
(d) Whenever a peace officer seizes a vehicle described in subdivision (a), the person from whom the property was seized shall be provided a notice of impoundment of the vehicle which shall serve as a receipt and contain the following information:
(1) Name and address of person from whom the property was seized.
(2) A statement that the vehicle seized has been impounded for investigation of a violation of Section 10751 of the California Vehicle Code and that the property will be released upon a determination that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, or upon the presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership of the vehicle or a component part, if no other person claims an interest in the property;  otherwise, a hearing regarding the disposition of the vehicle shall take place in the proper court.
(3) A statement that the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, will receive written notification of the date, time, and place of the hearing within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure.
(4) Name and address of the law enforcement agency where evidence of ownership of the vehicle or component part may be presented.
(5) A statement of the contents of Section 10751 of the Vehicle Code.
(e) A hearing on the disposition of the property shall be held by the superior court within 90 days after the seizure.  The hearing shall be before the court without a jury.  A proceeding under this section is a limited civil case.
(1) If the evidence reveals either that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed or that the number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed but satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented to the seizing agency or court, the property shall be released to the person entitled thereto.  Nothing in this section precludes the return of the vehicle or a component part to a good faith purchaser following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership thereof upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department.
(2) If the evidence reveals that the identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, and satisfactory evidence of ownership has not been presented, the vehicle shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of as provided by court order.
(3) At the hearing, the seizing agency has the burden of establishing that the serial or identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed and that no satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented.
(f) This section does not apply to a scrap metal processor engaged primarily in the acquisition, processing, and shipment of ferrous and nonferrous scrap, and who receives dismantled vehicles from licensed dismantlers, licensed junk collectors, or licensed junk dealers as scrap metal for the purpose of recycling the dismantled vehicles for their metallic content, the end product of which is the production of material for recycling and remelting purposes for steel mills, foundries, smelters, and refiners.
- See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-....HOkOXxC7.dpuf

[Bob from Northport]

Its probably better this discussion not be discussed........................

[denis4x4]

This becomes an issue when stolen parts are involved or there is a deception in order to avoid sales taxes. I turned in an individual that had ground off my engine number while it was in his shop to the CA DMV. Common sense goes a long way in avoiding problems. Any out of state vehicles being registered in CO are inspected to make sure that the VIN and or engine number match the paperwork submitted for registration transfer. I have paid $25 to have a certified VIN inspector (usually a law enforcement officer) come to the shop and check the frame number. I can use that certificate to register the car.

[RonC]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

This becomes an issue when stolen parts are involved or there is a deception in order to avoid sales taxes. I turned in an individual that had ground off my engine number while it was in his shop to the CA DMV. Common sense goes a long way in avoiding problems. Any out of state vehicles being registered in CO are inspected to make sure that the VIN and or engine number match the paperwork submitted for registration transfer. I have paid $25 to have a certified VIN inspector (usually a law enforcement officer) come to the shop and check the frame number. I can use that certificate to register the car.

Why did he grind your engine number off?

[Cool Hand Lurker]

The federal law overules the state law. 18 US Code 511 creates an exception for certain people, including the owner, to change a number on their own car.
If there is probable cause to believe the part is stolen then the state has to show that first under the 4th Amendment to the Constitution.

[H. L. Chauvin]

If we ever get serious and think about life in general:

"People will always try what they think they can get by with."

A few examples:

1. A most holy minister who is not supposed to eat pork knows company is coming, so he hides his bacon in the frig in an oatmeal box.

2 Another holy minister who is not supposed to drink knows company is coming, so he hides his whiskey in the washing machine.

3. The perfectionist old lady who never did anything wrong in her life goes 30 mph in a 20 mph speed zone because she is late for a wedding.

4. It gets more serious, for example, stealing tomatoes off of a neighbor's tomato plants; shop lifting; robbing houses when neighbors are away; trying to get a date with the married lady across the street who always cuts her grass in a bikini "after" her husband goes to work; etc., etc.

5. Jails and prisons are full of people who thought they could get by & never get caught.

6. Model A engine number changing and Model A title number changing are not that much different ..... after all, if you get it running the lady across the street in the bikini might want a ride.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Better yet, in paragraph 6, Reply # 11:

Her husband might be the guy who hid the whiskey in paragraph 2., and when she asked for a ride in your Model A, she may bring what she found in the washing machine!

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

This becomes an issue when stolen parts are involved or there is a deception in order to avoid sales taxes. I turned in an individual that had ground off my engine number while it was in his shop to the CA DMV. Common sense goes a long way in avoiding problems. Any out of state vehicles being registered in CO are inspected to make sure that the VIN and or engine number match the paperwork submitted for registration transfer. I have paid $25 to have a certified VIN inspector (usually a law enforcement officer) come to the shop and check the frame number. I can use that certificate to register the car.

Why did the shop owner grind the engine number off your engine ?

[KR500]

Isn't it illegal to tear off the tags on pillows and mattresses also?

[H. L. Chauvin]

KR,

I heard it is not illegal to have pillows without tags if one tears off pillow tags prior entering this country even without a proper passport or proper visa.

Also, I have no idea what motor number a Model A owner would be lawfully able to use to register his Model A or any other vehicle after he illegally crossed the border with it.

Can anyone imagine how many humans it would take today for our U. S. Government to try to monitor just our most Top Secret Information now on private servers and shared everywhere?

We seniors are really living in a totally different World that is so different from when we were young ..... thankfully, most of us think we lived in the best of times with great honest parents.

[barkleydave]

Rather than alter an engine number.... Here in KY if you are going to change out an engine and you have a title that matches the engine it is not a big deal to apply for a KY issued V.I.N. number. Some of our club members have done this and it was not a big deal once the current title was verified with the vehicle engine number. Once the State issued V.I.N. attached to the firewall or where ever they required it then your problem is solved. You can change out engines as often as your like and your car is worth a lot more to others within and out of state.

Knowing the process in your state for obtaining a State Issued V.I.N. assuming it is not too difficult can be an important negotiating tool when purchasing a car. The above example the car had an out of state issued title but the engine had been removed.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by KR500

Isn't it illegal to tear off the tags on pillows and mattresses also?

nope, not for the end user (ie you) but stores/distributors cannot.

[RonC]

Originally Posted by barkleydave

Rather than alter an engine number.... Here in KY if you are going to change out an engine and you have a title that matches the engine it is not a big deal to apply for a KY issued V.I.N. number. Some of our club members have done this and it was not a big deal once the current title was verified with the vehicle engine number. Once the State issued V.I.N. attached to the firewall or where ever they required it then your problem is solved. You can change out engines as often as your like and your car is worth a lot more to others within and out of state.

Knowing the process in your state for obtaining a State Issued V.I.N. assuming it is not too difficult can be an important negotiating tool when purchasing a car. The above example the car had an out of state issued title but the engine had been removed.

To me that would reduce vehicle value

[ursus]

Ultimately, the power is in the hands of state DMV and they can void a registration for any number of reasons. Even if the State takes no legal sanctions against an owner himself, they could easily void the registration of a vehicle in which a lot of his money is invested. Then what?

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

The federal law overules the state law. 18 US Code 511 creates an exception for certain people, including the owner, to change a number on their own car.
If there is probable cause to believe the part is stolen then the state has to show that first under the 4th Amendment to the Constitution.

I think you need to pay attention to who those certain people are.


U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 25 › § 511
18 U.S. Code § 511 - Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

Current through Pub. L. 114-38. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)
US Code
Notes
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(a) A person who—
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)
(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term—
(1) “identification number” means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) “motor vehicle” has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) “motor vehicle demolisher” means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) “motor vehicle scrap processor” means a person—
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term “tampers with” includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility