removing oil sludge with syringe?

[FrankWest]

For us new guys that are affraid to drop the oil pan, can we suck the sludge out through the oil drain hole with a large syringe?? Or is the old pan baffled?? Why is it baffled??? Maybe I am just baffled!

[CarlG]

Pan is baffled. Usually the "sludge" is way too thick to flow, needs to be "dug" out!

[Floats]

Hi Frank,
Yes, the pan is baffled. The baffle is not flat but has four dips or dishes pressed into it, forming oil dams under the conrod big ends. Remember the engine oil system is not pressurised and the bottom of the conrods are shaped with little scoops which dips and scoops oil from the depressions in the baffle.
The baffle does not seal the pan completely but cover about 90% of it. You can insert a seringe into the bottom of the pan by going through the oil fill tube.
My engine is at our local engineering shop for a rebuild, I'll try to get you a pic of the sump and baffle but it might be a few days( public holiday on Monday). Maybe someone else can give us a photo.
Regards
Chris Cape Town

[redmodelt]

The baffle is there to hold the troughs for the rods to dip their bottoms in oil to splash it all over and to keep too much oil from sloshing around and out the breather tube.

[Fred]

You may be more Baffled when you drop the pan & see what`s in it.. The only way to really clean it !!..

[SDJason]

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Take a look at this video. Somehow, I don't think a syringe would be able to do much - if it were me, I'd want to drop the pan and be sure of getting that stuff out of there...

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Fred

You may be more Baffled when you drop the pan & see what`s in it.. The only way to really clean it !!..

How high do I have to jack the car up to be able to work at removing the pan and then replacing it properly, with gasket properly installed.

Is the oil pan portion of the engine under pressure? Just wondering how critical the oil pan seals have to be. Just worring that I will always have an oil leak after I remove and replace the pan.

[Mikeinnj]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

How high do I have to jack the car up to be able to work at removing the pan and then replacing it properly, with gasket properly installed.

There is no pressure in the pan with the engine not running.

You may want to let the car sit for a few days before removing the pan, this will help to drain the oil from the block into the pan, and not onto you, as you work below it. During that time you should have the drain plug removed and the oil draining into a catch basin to catch the oil in the pan. This will make the pan a bit lighter to handle when removing it.

You may find the pan stuck to the block from heat,age and gasket sealer. A rubber mallet and small putty knife are useful in prying the pan free.

If you jack it up be sure to put jack stands supporting the frame for safety sake. Do not rely on a jack alone. Jack it up high enough to allow you to work under the car comfortably and don't forget to block the rear wheels.

Turning the front wheels allows extra clearance for the pan to clear the tie rod.

When re-installing the pan, don't forget to re-install the dipper tray. and when all done, remove the oil pump holding tool and replace the original oil passage plug.

I use Permatex copper sealer on the gasket side facing the block. This way if it has to be removed in the future the gasket remains in place. Be sure to clean the gasket surface of the block and pan thoroughly with solvent before installing the gasket so it will adhere.

I use a threaded stud on each corner of the engine block to help guide the pan into position and hold it in place while you insert the pan bolts. Replace whatever oil you took out with either a straight 30 weight detergent oil. Should take about 4 1/2 quarts to refill as some of the old oil will still be in the oil pump and valve chamber.

This is a pretty simple job and not that difficult to do for a first timer.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Frank,

FWIW:

Good advice so far.

But if you want to dig more ......... you can talk to your physician where he can better explain a similar difference for removing sludge ........... like between taking a laxative to remove everything from up high ............ or using an enema like your syringe which removes everything only from down low.

Because engines are a bit different, if one internally stirs up the sludge, it contains grit that could cause wear damage.

Just one opinion ...... not being an M.D., if it were me, I would remove the pan & the valve cover & get all of the sludge out in order to insure having a nice clean engine.

Hope this helps.

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

How high do I have to jack the car up to be able to work at removing the pan and then replacing it properly, with gasket properly installed.

Is the oil pan portion of the engine under pressure? Just wondering how critical the oil pan seals have to be. Just worring that I will always have an oil leak after I remove and replace the pan.

Before you drop the pan remove the little plug from the side of the block and run a screw in to hold the oil pump in place otherwise it will fall out when you drop the pan. Suppliers sell such a holding device, but you can improvise. If the pump does fall out put it back in place and have someone run a screw in to hold it in place until you get the pan up. There is a spring on the bottom of the pump that rests on the inside of the pan to hold it in place.

There is a small plate that is attached to the flywheel housing (it may be missing). There are three small bolts that hold it in place. The one at the bottom may restrict the lowering of the pan. Remove it first. Turn the wheels of the car to put the tie rod forward.

have a spare pan gasket at the ready as you might destroy the old one if someone glued it in place. Clean off all the old gasket from both surfaces. Cement the gasket only to the pan and let it dry. I always drop the bolts into the holes to assure alignment. Coat the top surface of the gasket with grease. This way the next time the pan is dropped the gasket may stay intact.

There is a tray inside the pan that is snapped into place. There are several ways to remove it. My method it to set it on something that won't scratch the bottom of the pan put your foot on one side of the pan and with the handle of a long hammer (a baseball bat works well) place it down in the hole for the pump and give it a flick of the wrist and it will come out. When you reinstall it make sure it is installed correctly with the grooves in the slots.

Dropping the pan is not a fun job, but it is not difficult. You will need a socket wrench with a long extension and a 1\2" socket.

Tom Endy

[juke joint johnny]

It's best to remove the pan to clean out sludge
.
But also to check the dipper tray ,Sometimes when these engines have sat unused Acid in the oil can create Holes in the dipper tray eventually Starving the connecting rod of oil and causing engine failure !!!! Sounds Expensive!!!

So Get Out there , Buy a gasket set and Check !!

Remeber The Engine You Save Might Be Your Own !!!

John Cochran

[afuncar]

Check inside valve cover to see if sludge buildup inside and need to be cleaned.

[Lona]

When re-installing the pan bolts, use a 1/4" socket set with a long extension and choke up on the ratchet handle so you don't overtighten the bolts and squeeze out the gasket between the pan and the block.
As Tom Endy says above, there is an inspection plate on the flywheel housing. Mine was missing the lower bolt before I dropped the pan. I diligently replaced that bolt before re-installing the pan and found there was no way I could get the pan properly located on the block with it in place. After removing the bolt, the pan went into place nicely. Previous owner likely had the same problem and left the bolt out for the same reason.
I'm sure others who have dropped many pans have found some way to do this without removing the bottom inspection bolt but I could not manage it on my roadster.....Glen

[Patrick L.]

Another thing that I didn't see mentioned. I find it easier when a couple guide pins [ long cut off 5/16" bolts,or are they 1/4" can't remember] are used to help 'guide' the pan when reinstalling it.

[Mike V. Florida]

Afraid of what?

Dropping the pan is on of the easiest things to do on a model a.

Jack it up take out the bolts and drop it. I little permatex on the gasket will keep it in place when you put it back on. Get some threaded rod and hang the pan from 4 places this will act like a helper to hold the pan while you place the bolts in. You can also use a jack to hold the pan up. Tighten the pan bolt just enough to see the gasket (cork) just START to squish no more.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Afraid of what?

Dropping the pan is on of the easiest things to do on a model a.

Jack it up take out the bolts and drop it. I little permatex on the gasket will keep it in place when you put it back on. Get some threaded rod and hang the pan from 4 places this will act like a helper to hold the pan while you place the bolts in. You can also use a jack to hold the pan up. Tighten the pan bolt just enough to see the gasket (cork) just START to squish no more.

The gasket comes in 2 pieces? or is this only for ford Model B engine.
What happens to the berring hole that divides the pan?

[bobv]

Are you guys cutting off the tabs that go under the rear main cap cork seal? It would seem you would have to in order to put the gasket on the pan first rather than sticking it to the block then installing the pan. Just asking as I haven't tried that method.

[Growley bear]

The gasket is in two pieces with a cork seal for rear main bearing cap front lower half of crankshaft seal. I haven't worked on a car with a lift for years. I like to raise it high enough to comfortably lay on my side on a creeper; assuming that I have the good fortune to be working on a concrete floor. That way there is enough room to remove the oil pan without spilling the remaining oil from the dipper tray. Replace the drain plug also. And wear safety glasses of some sort as bits of dirt and drops of oil will make for a very uncomfortable situation. Use jack stands and make sure that the car is solid and stable before going in. Read the oil pan removing part of Les Andrews book to familiarize yourself with the procedure; safety first; take your time especially if its your first time and you will have a job well done. From all the posts I have seen you have all the information to do the job correctly and well.

Chet

[RichardW]

I was shown these at our last meeting. Why didn't I think of that?
http://www.felpro-only.com/dyk/DYK2_SnapUps.pdf