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Old 07-10-2018, 09:23 AM   #1
egm
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Default No compression

Drove 31 Tudor into barn, running fine, next day wouldn’t start, no compression all 4 cylinders. Pulled head everything looks ok, valves move,new valves , 100 miles on them. Can’t understand how I lost compression in all 4 cylinders overnight. Any ideas? Thank you.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: No compression

Look at the cam timing gear, they get damaged often.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:21 PM   #3
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Default Re: No compression

May also want to pull the valve cover and watch things move.


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Old 07-10-2018, 12:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: No compression

Thanks will do
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: No compression

You can pull the side cover but you already have the head off. You said that you could see the valves move. Why?
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: No compression

If the valves are moving then you should have compression. What led you to think of no compression in 24 hrs.?
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: No compression

Valves move up and down well distributor rod turns feel no slop feel tight to cam. Valves tight to seats. Not sure what to look for next. Head gasket looks as good as new.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: No compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1930artdeco View Post
If the valves are moving then you should have compression. What led you to think of no compression in 24 hrs.?
me thinks the compression gauge doesn't work...
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:09 PM   #9
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Default Re: No compression

Thought gas was bad, rebuilt carb no go, checked compression 0 at all 4
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: No compression

Put finger over hole no response.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:29 PM   #11
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Default Re: No compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1930artdeco View Post
If the valves are moving then you should have compression.
Not necessarily. They need to open and close at the right time. I suggest pulling the side timing gear cover and looking at the gears.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:33 PM   #12
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Default Re: No compression

Cam may have lost it's relation to the crankshaft - broken teeth on fiber gear. The procedure has been covered hundreds of times here. Good time to get familiar with the advanced search feature. Try it, you'll like it. Saves a lot of time. Then, if you don't understand, I'm here to help and others as well. The picture in your mind is basically what is the 4 stroke cycle. Got to picture it to understand it. Model As are simple but the 4 strokes and piston position concept is universal. The goal is not to get the car running, its get the understanding to know what to do with the basic test results.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: No compression

Pull the side cover off the timing cover and check every tooth.
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: No compression

Teeth look good
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:56 PM   #15
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Default Re: No compression

So did you crank the engine and watch the gear turn as the crankshaft turned?
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: No compression

what kind of tappets do you have and what did you set your valves at? make sure the timing marks are still in line
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: No compression

Even if you wrung the teeth off the timing gear you would have compression in at least one of the cylinders,there is no cam position where a valve on all four cylinders open..so that rules out a valve timing issue. Stuck valves can cause it but you would have to have at least two stuck or burnt valves.Engine was running fine on shutdown so that rules out burnt valves,sticking is possible..any other issue would require 4 events to occur..at once...with no prior indication of a problem..
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: No compression

If every tooth on the cam gear is in good condition and each valve has some lash and things are going round and round as they should, there should be compression. Have you added a wee bit of oil to each hole ?

As hard as the crank gear is to get off I would doubt that is the problem, but, at this point it might be worth checking. Something just isn't making sense.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:51 AM   #19
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Default Re: No compression

It's time to consider your compression is your problem.

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Old 07-11-2018, 08:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: No compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by egm View Post
Put finger over hole no response.
In your first post you said you removed the head. Is it on or off now? - which hole are you talking about? I am very confused as to what has been done and what state the engine is as far as being apart at this time. Can't get much compression with the head off.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:19 AM   #21
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Default Re: No compression

By jumping into tearing it down, you have already made the problem harder to diagnose.

The first thing to do when it won't start, is listen. If it turns over with a normal cranking sound, you probably have compression. In that case, go look at spark and fuel.

If it spins over and a higher than normal speed, and sounds like it spins freely, you probably have a compression issue. In this case, pull the distributor cap of and watch the rotor while cranking it. If the rotor is not spinning, you probably have lost some timing gear teeth. Now is the first time I'd consider pulling out any tool, and that tool would be a compression gauge.

If you measure no compression on all or most cylinders, it's time to pull the timing gear side cover, and carefully watch the teeth on the cam gear, while cranking it over with a hand crank. It will take to full revolutions of the crankshaft to see all the teeth, so go slow, and make sure when you turn the crank, that the timing gear is actually turning too. ( If you don't watch the fiber gear turn, you may just see teeth after each crank, because you are looking at the same teeth!)

If all this checks out, only now would I remove any other engine parts. ONLY AFTER ALL THESE CHECKS, WOULD YOU REMOVE ANY OTHER ENGINE PARTS!
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:32 AM   #22
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Default Re: No compression

Is the starter actually turning the engine over? Or just spinning?
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:55 AM   #23
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Default Re: No compression

Was the starter actually engaging the flywheel? Easier to check the starter than it is to pull a head. Bendix May just be spinning which may make it appear theres no compression. An actual compression test wouldve been step 1 with readings on all 4 cylinders.


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Old 07-11-2018, 12:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: No compression

I agree that PERHAPS pulling the head was a bit premature without first running a couple other checks (compression, distributor shaft rotation, starter operation), but the situation as it stands now is not without an advantage. With the head off, the OP can push the starter rod and check the operation of ALL the valves, as well as whether the starter actually turns the engine over. It's highly unlikely that between the time the OP parked the car in the barn and when he went out the next day to start it that at least one valve in each cylinder became stuck, a couple valve springs broke or that the head gasket blew out in each cylinder. Pushing the starter rod when the head was still in place would have told him whether the timing gear was stripped, the head gasket had blown and/or whether the Bendix drive was inoperative In all three cases, the starter would have turned the engine over at a noticeably faster rate than usual, which the car's owner should have recognized by the difference in sound. One poster already suggested this. Too late in this case, but a good sleuthing method to keep in mind for future problems of a similar nature.
If the valves open and close through a few revolutions with the starter, the OP can observe their operation and eliminate stuck valves from the equation. If only a few valves open and close as they should, but others remain stuck open, then there is a problem possibly with them sticking in the guides. If they don't move at all, the timing gear is stripped or possibly the oil pump drive gear is stripped or the shaft's pin sheared off. Easy to spot this by re-inserting the lower distributor shaft into the engine (assuming there is the two-piece shaft in place) and push the starter rod. If the lower distributor shaft doesn't turn, then we're back to a stripped timing gear or a problem with the oil pump drive. You could also just look down onto the distributor shaft hole and see if the oil pump drive gear is turning. That requires more gymnastic ability while holding down the starter rod than watching the lower shaft turning above the deck of the block.
If the starter spins, but the pistons don't go up and down, the starter's Bendix spring is either broken or a drive mounting bolt has sheared. Easy to check this operation.
If all the above work o.k., then about the only thing left to explain zero compression is a blown head gasket, unlikely as that would be. But all four cylinders blowing out - while the car is parked? I'm leaning more towards a stripped timing gear/oil pump drive or trouble with the Bendix. Pistons go up and down, the valves operate fine = what else could explain zero compression - if a zero compression situation actually did exist and the signs were not misinterpreted?
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:48 PM   #25
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Default Re: No compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by katy View Post
Is the starter actually turning the engine over? Or just spinning?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czee View Post
Now the thread is one the right track after 18 or so questionable replies.
I believe he stated that the valves where opening and closing and the distributor is turning?

You really do need the whole thread...
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:23 PM   #26
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Default Re: No compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead View Post
I believe he stated that the valves where opening and closing and the distributor is turning?

You really do need the whole thread...
Are the valves and distributor lifting, turning when he uses the starter or hand crank?

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Old 07-11-2018, 02:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: No compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by denniskliesen View Post
Are the valves and distributor lifting, turning when he uses the starter or hand crank?
See post #7... Distributor lifting??
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:26 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by egm View Post
Thought gas was bad, rebuilt carb no go, checked compression 0 at all 4
Bad gas or no gas, new carb, rebuilt or whatever has nothing to do with the loss of compression. Me thinks a good review of 4 stroke engine operation is in order. Post 17 & 26 explains it all, there HAS to be some compression in at least 1 cylinder.

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Last edited by aermotor; 07-11-2018 at 04:15 PM. Reason: statement added
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:48 PM   #29
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Default Re: No compression

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Thats your opinion!
Your right. What I meant to write is "You really do NEED to read the whole thread". I think you missed part of it... He stated in post #7 the valves are "moving up and down" (opening and closing) so that kind of shows the engine was turning over.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:56 PM   #30
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Whats the deal here? Is egm the O.P. and Czee with the problem? Nothing makes sense with this thread or the alleged problem.

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Old 07-11-2018, 07:12 PM   #31
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Default Re: No compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by aermotor View Post
Whats the deal here? Is egm the O.P. and Czee with the problem? Nothing makes sense with this thread or the alleged problem.

John



Thats for sure.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:46 PM   #32
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Default Re: No compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead View Post
See post #7... Distributor lifting??
What I meant to ask was,
Are the valves lifting when using the starter?
Are the valves lifting when using the hand crank?
Is the distributor turning when using the starter?
Is the distributor turning when using a hand crank?

The OP hasn't posted in over a day to simple questions.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:57 PM   #33
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Default Re: No compression

There have been so many condescending responses I'd be surprised if the OP hasn't just left the site in disgust. However, I agree there is something strange going on with his engine. Obviously more to the story.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:40 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by aermotor View Post
Whats the deal here? Is egm the O.P. and Czee with the problem? Nothing makes sense with this thread or the alleged problem.

John
I agree, and it's not even April 1st.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:09 AM   #35
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I agree, and it's not even April 1st.
True dat, it is however very close to a new moon and that means the crazies are off the road and on the web.................
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:33 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle View Post
There have been so many condescending responses I'd be surprised if the OP hasn't just left the site in disgust. However, I agree there is something strange going on with his engine. Obviously more to the story.
I really don't see any condescending responses to the O.P. and sincerely believe everyone was trying to help. Now we have a new member who joined within the past couple hours tossing in a 1st post that doesn't make sense in context with previous posts. I agree something strange is going on - maybe not with the motor.

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Old 07-12-2018, 07:01 AM   #37
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Default Re: No compression

Removed in.ex. Manifold valves very sluggish, intake ports heavy layer of black tar. Bad gas? Have used start bill since new valves maybe try marvel or sea foam next. Well have to clean up the mess thanks for the help
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:27 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egm View Post
Removed in.ex. Manifold valves very sluggish, intake ports heavy layer of black tar. Bad gas? Have used start bill since new valves maybe try marvel or sea foam next. Well have to clean up the mess thanks for the help
That finally makes sense. Thanks for the update.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:38 AM   #39
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That finally makes sense. Thanks for the update.
I agree. I had a feeling it was something like this, which is caused by bad gas most of the time.


Does the tank have some kind of liner that is coming off?
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:46 AM   #40
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Tom, found out thank was sealed 25 year's ago I think it's coming off now what a mess.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:11 AM   #41
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Default Re: No compression

We just had a club members 29 coupe like that. The compression was all over the place and varied from test to test. Some days it was ok then some days it wouldn't start. Finally we took the head off and them the side cover and what a mess. All the ports, valve stems and guides were coated with a thick layer of carbon goo like molasses. We removed the valves, guides and cleaned everything including the ports. Then lapped the valves reinstalled everything and it purred like a kitten as they say.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:00 PM   #42
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Default Re: No compression

I would clean the gas tank with Marine Clean to get rid of the old tank liner. Try to only buy gas without ethanol and use 4 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil with each 10 gallons of gas. I'd also put a can of Sea Foam in the oil.


E-85 might strip off the old tank liner. I used a gallon of E-85 and a hand full of lag bolts and wood screws, then rotated my Studebaker gas tank at 45 degrees for an hours, then flipped the tank over and repeated for another hour. My tank was spotless clean inside, so I have no idea why anyone would have lined the tank in the first place. I would never line any tank.


BTW, since the head is off, start by spraying Kroil on all the valve stems to free them up.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:14 PM   #43
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Default Re: No compression

In the 1980's when gasoline just started going south in quality, the BIG thing in the Model A clubs was to pour some magic elixir into the tanks to seal them. I'm not sure what the connection between antique car gas tanks and new blends of fuel was, but everybody and his brother were sealing their gas tanks. The idea smelled fishy to me, so I steadfastly refused to do that to my cars or friends'/customers' Model A's who had heard or read that this was the thing to do. I was concerned about down the line in a few years that whatever the Feds were calling gasoline might breakdown what worked well in 1980. I am no clairvoyant or wise man able to see into the future, but my gut feeling was: "Don't do it! You'll be sorry! Better living doesn't always come through chemistry!"
Well, the absolute garbage that's being passed off now as fuel for our cars is proving itself to be highly detrimental to rubber parts in the fuel system and to any older tank sealers that can't stand up to the new blends. We already know how Ethanol almost turns into corn syrup if left too long in a fuel system. I wonder if the OP's problem can't be traced back to old fuel that broke down and an older sealer letting loose? To have that much gooey crud inside the engine doesn't come from just one bad tank of gas. It had to have been accumulative. I should think that when the OP pulled off the cylinder head, there should have been one heck of a gooey mess. That would have been a sure sign that there's more of that stuff inside the engine, too.
Well, I'm sure we're all glad that the OP found the problem. Whether one person or everyone supplied the right answer doesn't matter. All the answers are things worth checking in case of future problems of similar nature among the readers. Good information for all of us to digest and store away for a rainy day.
Marshall

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Old 07-12-2018, 01:30 PM   #44
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Good thought Marshall. The carb will also need to be cleaned out.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:33 PM   #45
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Quote:
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Tom, found out thank was sealed 25 year's ago I think it's coming off now what a mess.

25 years ago tank sealers were sourced from the light aircraft repair industry so not compatible with gasoline that has been contaminated with ethanol. Ethanol dissolves the sealer, causing nasty problems like you're seeing.
Try to find stations that sell pure gasoline, perhaps at a marina. Using ethanol in a boat is another recipe for disaster!
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:35 PM   #46
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I used some of the white tank sealer 20 years ago on a couple old stationary engine gas tanks that were so full of holes it was hopeless to try to repair them. They have had gas in them continuously, some sitting for years unused, and they have stayed perfectly leak-free and no gumminess. However, I got some red tank sealer from Napa later and that stuff was junk. Turned to GOO in a couple years.
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:38 PM   #47
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Is there any dood tank sealer ? Sorry to hijack but I'm at crossroads and either try to repair or replace .
Thanks
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