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Old 05-13-2020, 01:56 PM   #1
DRG-ler
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Default High fuel consumption?!?!

Hi guys, I have a question about fuel consumption. Mine seems very high to me.
I read here in the forum that this should average 16-18 mpg. Mine is around 12 mpg. I find that a lot. Where to start looking for the mistake?
The ignition is set according to the manual. The adjusting needle is open a maximum of a quarter turn when the engine is warm, but consumption does not decrease significantly on longer tours.
The spark plugs don't look too bad, but the exhaust blows against the rear axle, and there is a thick layer of soot hanging there.
The CO value has not yet been measured.

The real question I wanted to ask is whether an electronic ignition or a centrifugal advance distributor have a positive effect on consumption and reduce it?

I also have a Tillotson carburetor on the shelf. A Zenith is currently installed. How would a change work?

Greetings from Berlin
Andy

Last edited by DRG-ler; 05-13-2020 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:37 PM   #2
WHN
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Has the Zenith carb on your car been rebuilt? Are you running an air cleaner? What spark plug are you using? What is your gap on plugs.

I am now running a new Zenith 1 on our 29. We are getting about 18 mpg. The passenger side inside rear bumper has black smoke residue. All my Model A’s have had it.

I would think your running to rich.

My personal opinion is you are better off with a new or rebuilt Zenith than a Tillotson.

Enjoy.
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Old 05-13-2020, 02:54 PM   #3
DRG-ler
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

I do not know a carburetor conversion. I've only had the car for a year, and I don't know if the previous owner changed anything. I don't think so. How do I recognize a conversion and what is being converted?

Air filter is the original installed. Spark plugs are Motorcraft TT10, electrode spacing 0.8 mil.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

If it were my car I would do the following.

Rebuild carb, cost of kit for Zenith about $60.00 US.

Do a complete tune-up, points, plugs, rotor, condenser, and cap. Set plugs at 35 gap.

Make sure your air cleaner is not obstructing air flow to carb. You might want to try running without the cleaner, although I would use one.

After you start your car and it has warmed up, the richness control on your choke should be turned back to about quarter turn from off.

Off turning to the right, open turning to the left.

When we are done running car we turn control to off position. Do not snug it down, just lightly turn to off.

Our car starts when cold, open 3/4 turn, than once warmed up, turned back to 1/4.

My comments are based on not knowing how and when this was last done. A good tune-up goes along way. Plus we have no idea what condition your carburetor is in.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Delicate overland journey <18 l / 100 km. Short distances / city >22 l / 100 km.
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Old 05-13-2020, 05:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Delicate overland journey <18 l / 100 km. Short distances / city >22 l / 100 km.
62mi for 4.75 g = 13 Miles per gallon
62mi for 5.8 g = 10.7 miles per gallon
I have a 29 Fordor and get a bit better than that, about 15 mpg. If I drive slower I sometimes get 16 or 17. I have an air cleaner. Does not affect the GAV settings or MPG at all that I can tell. I have been told that the Marvel Shlueber (sp) will raise performance and MPG. I've got one all ready to put on but never have. My zenith runs so good I haven't wanted to mess with it.
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Old 05-13-2020, 05:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

When I got my first Model A, it was bog standard. On our club's economy test, I used to win regularly with a figure of about 27 miles per imperial gallon. 28 MPG is near enough, 10l/100km. On a rund, I'd always get about 26-7 and once, I topped 30 mpg (about 9.3 l/100km). All these figures were with an air cleaner attached.
I have since made a few modifications for more power and the economy has dropped to the low 20s mpg (say, 12-12.5l/100km).
It is important to note that we use the "proper" gallon (4.54 litres). The us gallon is only 3.8 litres. Even taking that into consideration, those figures suggest your car is too thirsty. In your position, I'd carefully rebuild a Zenith carburettor with flow tested jets. Most of the jets sold by the run of the mill vendors are too big. I suspect that might be your problem.
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Old 05-13-2020, 06:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Do you have a thermostat ? A model A engine runs better at 160-180 degrees F. Flow tested jets and rebuild the zenith carburetor and a thermostat and a factory type muffler. Speed and or headwind will kill fuel mileage, 45 miles per hour is about the best speed for mileage
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:24 PM   #9
Marshall V. Daut
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Check your "Private Message" in the top right corner of this webpage.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:08 PM   #10
30 Closed Cab PU
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Have you checked to see if your odometer and speedometer are accurate.. If they are off it may affect your calculations. Running larger tires would cause your mpg calculations to be lower.
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Old 05-14-2020, 01:18 AM   #11
DRG-ler
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Delicate overland journey <18 l / 100 km. Short distances / city >22 l / 100 km.

I find that too high! I mean, I drive a lot here in Berlin's inner city traffic, but even there I find 18.5 L too high!

So, and since there are so many different miles and gallons, I will now stay at liters per kilometer.

@ Synchro909

Quote:
It is important to note that we use the "proper" gallon (4.54 liters). The us gallon is only 3.8 liters.
I did not know that. However, I'm wondering why a car from the US market and a survey of US citizens / drivers should use British measurements for the calculation? But well, that shouldn't be the issue now, let's stick to liters / kilometers.


You write that you have a consumption of 9.3 l / 100km to 12-12.5 l / 100 km after a conversion ... I find that almost too little for a 3.3L engine, but I would still like such values. Everything between 12L and 15L would be fine for me, less would be a dream, but probably unrealistic.
The question now is, what is different for you than for me?
You say most of the nozzles sold are too big. Where do you get "real" nozzles? (@ Marshall, I read your message, thanks for that !!)

@ Big Hammer

Yes, I have installed this thermostat.


http://vintageprecision.com/products...ing/index.html



Unfortunately, my temperature display is still not working properly, so I cannot yet tell whether it is working correctly.

@ 30 Closed Cab
Speedometer and odometer are going well ...
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Old 05-14-2020, 03:12 AM   #12
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

[QUOTE=Synchro909;1887232]When I got my first Model A, it was bog standard. On our club's economy test, I used to win regularly with a figure of about 27 miles per imperial gallon. 28 MPG is near enough, 10l/100km. On a rund, I'd always get about 26-7 and once, I topped 30 mpg (about 9.3 l/100km). All these figures were with an air cleaner attached.
I have since made a few modifications for more power and the economy has dropped to the low 20s mpg (say, 12-12.5l/100km).
It is important to note that we use the "proper" gallon (4.54 litres). The us gallon is only 3.8 litres. Even taking that into consideration, those figures suggest your car is too thirsty. In your position, I'd carefully rebuild a Zenith carburettor with flow tested jets. Most of the jets sold by the run of the mill vendors are too big. I suspect that might be your problem.[/QUOTE]

This man is obviously a proven success. I would say, Listen to him !
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Old 05-14-2020, 03:39 AM   #13
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

DRG-ler, Tested jets are available from Renners Corner in the US. https://rennerscorner.com/index.html
The best of those figure was obtained while driving for economy. GAV turned further in that normal, timing set just right, an egg under the accelerator, a motor in very good condition but not tight, tyres pumped up tight and speed kept down to 40 mph or even less at times - all the usual tricks to reduce fuel consumption.
On a day long trip with the rest of the club, I'd be happy taking it easy on back roads at 42 mph and getting about 26-7 mpg on average.
I obtained those figures in a 1929 Phaeton which is one of the lighter bodies and has no visor and a sloping windscreen. A visor will drag on the car like a parachute and I have the side curtains on to reduce drag.
I agree, using litres and kilometers is a more universal and consistent measurement system.
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Old 05-14-2020, 05:11 AM   #14
Werner
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Tach Andreas,

the high consumption is not unusual. >3.3 l displacement, compressed only 4: 1, this results in a large throughput with very little efficiency (about <15%!).

Leaning only helps if the stoichiometric ratio (fuel / air = 1: 14.5) is grossly incorrect (too rich). But that shows you the spark plug face picture (gray insulator tip). However, the engine temperature must also be correct for this statement. Without a thermostat, I've rarely reached more than 60 ° C, so much too cold.

Special test glas plugs are a very good auxiliary tool. You can see whether the mixture is correct (blue flame) or too rich (yellow), etc.
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big hammer View Post
...45 miles per hour is about the best speed for mileage

That is the speed that I always drive here in Berlin, so it should fit.

Quote:
... an egg under the accelerator ...
Will not happen to me !!! I will not let the fun of the car spoil my fuel consumption! Ultimately, I don't care how expensive the gasoline in the tank is. The car is a hobby, and hobby costs money. The only problem is that there is so little petrol in the tank !!! The range is so limited! So I have to use the resources and optimize the system!

Thank you Synchro909, Marshall had given me the nozzle set above. But I will order the complete overhaul set, not just the nozzles. But will not happen in the next 6 weeks.

@ Werner
Yes, the "bad" efficiency is already known. On the other hand, I have a friend here (over three corners ...) who drives a 28 Tudor, which supposedly only consumes 10L. Is not understandable for me at the moment. However, he also switches off the engine at every red traffic light, even if he only has to wait 5 seconds.


As already written, a thermostat is installed, but the temperature sensor in the housing is so far away that the sensor is not surrounded by the flowing cooling water. Furthermore, it is a 12V display that is currently operated with only 6V. It can not display correct. I will probably convert to an inline sensor in the hose.

To the spark plug with "window" ... Have you already tested one yourself?

greetings
Andy
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:52 AM   #16
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Way too many variables to diagnose your MPG
Everything from compression issues, bearings, tire pressue to dragging brakes can contribute.

Running too rich and fuel quality can have a huge impact on mpg.

I get 4 mpg average driving more when I use alcohol free fuel.... Real gas.
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Old 05-14-2020, 04:28 PM   #17
Werner
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG-ler View Post
... I have a friend here (over three corners ...) who drives a 28 Tudor, which supposedly only consumes 10L. Is not understandable for me at the moment.
Stimmt ziemlich genau auf 50 km. Von der Verbrennungs-Physik her unmöglich! -

Quote:
To the spark plug with "window" ... Have you already tested one yourself?
Yes, I use it since 15 years. Not for fine tuning, but they are very good to check the ground-adjustment.
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Old 05-14-2020, 04:58 PM   #18
Kurt in NJ
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

i have run my car on emission machine under load, both with regular unleaded, and 10
% ethnol, and kept fuel mileage log on a trip, on a several day trip with average speed over 60 i got 23 miles per gallon, this with gav closed

the first test with regular unleaded --CO 4.8, HC 190ppm ---2nd gear pulling hard with near full advance
then with 10% ethonal --no other changes i tested up to 3300 rpm
CO 0.12%, HC 14ppm --this is with gav closed, I was seeing how low emissions I could get, barely driveable
at a driveable setting(1/8 turn)CO is up to .57%, HC at 23ppm

at speeds above 50 I needed 1/2--3/4 turn to get CO to 2-3%
below 2% the center burns white, at 3% starts to get some tan, Co below 1% can make manifold red hot
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Old 05-15-2020, 03:09 AM   #19
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

Do I read this right Kurt?.. on a trip lasting several days you averaged over 60 mph??? Wow! what engine have you got?
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Old 05-15-2020, 08:33 AM   #20
Kurt in NJ
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Default Re: High fuel consumption?!?!

The engine is stock except for "B" cam, poured the mains a week before a 3000 mile trip, finally got it together the night before we left, broke it in on the road, second night it rocked on compression at shutoff, next day I found top speed was 67, drove rest the way to the show at 50-55, on the way home I was trying to break it, only drove under 60 if traffic and speed limit prevented it, whole length or PA turnpike at 65, longest between fill up was 260 miles --- still try to break it 30 years later, don't keep track of exact fuel mileage anymore, but still over 100 miles on 5 gallons for local and parade driving
Stock rear ratio-- no overdrive
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