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Old 07-23-2020, 09:19 AM   #1
BadgerA
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Default 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

I am restoring an 82B CCPU and am trying to determine the correct and original finish of the mounting hardware for the back window frame. Some have told me that the screws were originally nickel, others raven finish. Same questions on the washers and nuts as well as the corner brackets. The repo screws are standard dome head run of the mill pieces and are zinc finished. I believe the originals had a different shape. Is this correct? Does anyone have an original who can shed some light on this? I don't see anything in the JSC on this.


I have another unrelated question pertaining to the painting of the inside of the cab. The JSC states that it could be body color or black. Do you think that Ford would have gone through the effort of masking off the interior to paint it black? Doesn't seem plausible to me,,, but once again input would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 07-23-2020, 11:10 AM   #2
Bob C
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

On the paint question page E-66 of the Standards says "Interior- painted cab color with wood installed." The Paint and Finish Guide shows for the moulding Black for dashrail,windshield pillars, door window, and rear window.
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Old 07-23-2020, 12:00 PM   #3
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

Thank you for your feedback Bob. Referencing the JS, if you go to 12-33 it states:

Inside cab-Body color or black painted finish.
So,,,, which is it?


Also, no mention of the finish of the rear window frame hardware that I can find. Thanks again.
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Old 07-23-2020, 01:33 PM   #4
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

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Originally Posted by BadgerA View Post
Thank you for your feedback Bob. Referencing the JS, if you go to 12-33 it states:

Inside cab-Body color or black painted finish.
So,,,, which is it?


Also, no mention of the finish of the rear window frame hardware that I can find. Thanks again.
I don't have the Stds in front of me to read the entire text of what you have referenced, however if they give you an "or", then you have the freedom to use whichever color you prefer.

As for the hardware, I would start by determining what is the correct style and length of fastener for that 'window frame'. Once that is determined, look in Mick Isbell's Hardware Book and match up the fastener size with a part number. Then find a Part's Price List book that was released both before and after your vehicle's production date. In the area after mechanical parts but before the AA parts, there is generally 3-5 pages of just various fasteners listed by their part number. Generally speaking, there is a S code beside the description that would give the finish. If my memory is correct, S-2 is Raven and S-6 is Nickel. The same fastener may have two different part numbers and the only difference is the finish. Hopefully thru process elimination, if there is not any S-2 listed for that size fastener, then you know the correct finish is Nickel.

As for another way, if you look in the Body Parts Price List, there should be a part number for the moulding listed. I will tell you that Ford did not call it a rear window frame or moulding. Most of those type window frames he called 'Strip'. If you look in that book, likely you will find the correct part number for the "Frame" that was used. Often times you if you look on the original print, it will specify the fasteners used and all other surrounding components such as the glass and such. At the top right of the print will also be EI (engineering information) that will give some insight. Maybe something like a certain fastener was used until a certain date and then it was superseded by a different finish. I am not that up on commercial stuff in my research, but it is believable to me they used one finish for an A pick-up, and a different finish for the AA. Maybe they intended one type for the DeLuxe pick-up?

I will tell you that Ford often used the same fastener with several different finishes in differing areas of the vehicle. What gets confusing is he may have used a Nickel finish in a utilitarian vehicle simply because they only needed one type finish throughout production and the cost of inventorying multiple finishes vs. a single finish was not prudent to do.

Good luck on this, and if I can be of help let me know. I need to go to Benson within the next month or so, and if I am able, I will be happy to look up the print and see if it gives any info on that.
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Last edited by BRENT in 10-uh-C; 07-23-2020 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Changing an auto-corrected typo.
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Old 07-23-2020, 03:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

FYI - the 82-B used part A-82820-B back window finish strip. There are two engineering drawings (1930-01-29 and 1930-04-10) per the MAFFI data base. The Isbell book covers "eleven chassis parts books". So the book does not cover body fasteners.
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Old 07-23-2020, 04:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

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Quote:
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FYI - the 82-B used part A-82820-B back window finish strip. There are two engineering drawings (1930-01-29 and 1930-04-10) per the MAFFI data base. The Isbell book covers "eleven chassis parts books". So the book does not cover body fasteners.

Just a couple of things to add to what Neil has said. Based on my experience of spending time at the Benson Library, there are many prints that are at Benson that are not shown/listed in the MAFFI database. I have included a copy of a print I obtained at the archives of a body bolt (-which is listed in Mick's book) yet is not listed on the MAFFI site just to validate my point.

It should also be noted that while I did not take the time to verify there are two drawings there, ...it is very possible there may be more drawings at Benson referring to that very trim piece. That is why it is so important to compare all the prints to see what has changed, ...and to read the EIs to know what has changed. Look at the amount of revisions that was made just to the A-20922 Body Bolt print that I posted below.


Neil, I do appreciate your point about Mick getting information from the chassis books, however there really are quite a few Body fasteners listed in his book. Items like A-20236 which is cowl lacing hook, body bolts (-like the image below), finish strip (moulding) screws, front belt (dash) rail screws, stanchion screws, fender & sheetmetal fasteners, instrument panel screws, etc., etc. are all in his book. They just are not cataloged under the different areas like Frame, Cooling, etc. however Mick's book is a great resource for searching out fasteners for both chassis and the body.

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Old 07-23-2020, 04:37 PM   #7
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

Are we having fun yet? LOL. Good information all. Unfortunately the more I look the more confused I get. Example the JS having two different points about painting the inside of the cab black. I will pour through Isbell's book just to see if I can uncover anything pertinent to this discussion. Sure would be nice if we had an owner of an "original" truck who could pipe in on this.
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Old 07-23-2020, 04:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

FWIW. I could not locate any specific reference to the fasteners in the Isbell book. If anyone else knows otherwise, please chime in.
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Old 07-23-2020, 06:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

I don't have it handy but what about the Trimming and Hardware book?

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Old 07-23-2020, 09:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C View Post
Neil, I do appreciate your point about Mick getting information from the chassis books, however there really are quite a few Body fasteners listed in his book. Items like A-20236 which is cowl lacing hook, body bolts (-like the image below), finish strip (moulding) screws, front belt (dash) rail screws, stanchion screws, fender & sheetmetal fasteners, instrument panel screws, etc., etc. are all in his book. They just are not cataloged under the different areas like Frame, Cooling, etc. however Mick's book is a great resource for searching out fasteners for both chassis and the body.

Brent - FYI - When Ford sold a chassis (without a body) it included the hood, cowl, instruments, mirrors, front fenders, boards, shields, etc. So, those parts are included in the parts lists. Consequently, there is some overlap as you note.
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Old 07-24-2020, 06:50 AM   #11
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Wilson View Post
Brent - FYI - When Ford sold a chassis (without a body) it included the hood, cowl, instruments, mirrors, front fenders, boards, shields, etc. So, those parts are included in the parts lists. Consequently, there is some overlap as you note.
Thank you Neil. I appreciate all you do for the hobby.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WTSHNN View Post
I don't have it handy but what about the Trimming and Hardware book?
Tim, I just scanned thru this briefly but it really does not break it down by body type usage.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerA View Post
Are we having fun yet? LOL. Good information all. Unfortunately the more I look the more confused I get. Example the JS having two different points about painting the inside of the cab black. I will pour through Isbell's book just to see if I can uncover anything pertinent to this discussion. Sure would be nice if we had an owner of an "original" truck who could pipe in on this.

I apologize if I created you any confusion as that was not my intent. I think some may have placed too much expectations from Mick's book. Let's go back to my 2nd paragraph in post #4 above. Note where I stated you need to know the fastener size(s) to begin with. As I stated in post 4, you may need to look at the print to gain your information and you typically need a part # to get you started. Either the part number of the fastener or the moulding strip. From there you can gain your info however I have found ways around looking at the print on certain items. That is why I mentioned Mick's book.

Now with regard to confusing info in the JS book, what I am posting below is not intended to bash the book's content, however I have found various discrepancies in my research comparing the prints to the book info. At that time I simply choose to either go by the JS info, -or by the info on the factory print. If I/you have proof of something that counters what is in the JS, I/you simply ask the JSC for a variance if you are entering into judging. A great example of this is when you look at the print I posted in #6 above, it clearly states the #2 & #3 body bolts were Cadmium plated whereas in the Standards, I believe it states that Body Mounting Bolts were Black finish. To me, what is on a factory print is most likely going to be the most accurate info, but even that can be confusing if you don't take the time to thoroughly read all info such as EIs and looking at previous and subsequent prints.
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Old 07-24-2020, 08:23 AM   #12
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Default Re: 82B Back Window Trim Hardware Questions

Brent. I truly appreciate all that you do in trying to go back to the source. Unfortunately many do not have the inclination to make a trip to Dearborn to go to that level. Perhaps this is why we see so much variation in responses from individuals to questions of minutia such as mine, especially since the vast majority have no interest, or don't care about fine point level discussions. I get that. I know what it takes to put together a Henry car. Been there, done that. In this case, I am not looking to put together a fine point vehicle. I just always strive for accuracy whenever I can. Barring a definitive answer to my hardware question, which candidly the vast majority of readers will find silly, I will just have to make a "best guess" decision and go from there. Once again, my sincere thanks to you and the others who have tried to help me out here.
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