Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-12-2019, 08:02 AM   #21
History
Senior Member
 
History's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NC Mountains
Posts: 456
Default Re: Cracked Block

I'm not sure on the "sorda" maybe it's solder?? "Zotight" is "Zo-tite" and by reading the description seems to be an awesome product if true.

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/zo-...cks-p2514.aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Good moning Richard,


please tell me, what is "sorda", what is "zotight"?


Thanks.
History is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2019, 10:21 AM   #22
Corley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Battle Ground WA
Posts: 291
Default Re: Cracked Block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post

I've made the experience that epoxy resins are very resistant to engine oil, but not against antyfreese (Glysantin). Because these are polyglycols that dissolve plastics.
Don't tell the new car manufacturers this, they will have to stop using all those plastic parts in newer engines.
__________________
Corley
-----------------
Subscribed to the KISS principle!
Corley is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 11-12-2019, 02:29 PM   #23
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 868
Default Re: Cracked Block

Quote:
Originally Posted by History View Post
... by reading the description seems to be an awesome product if true.
Miracles happens from time to time!

Quote:
Don't tell the new car manufacturers this, they will have to stop using all those plastic parts in newer engines.
That was too inaccurately described by me/ wrong translation. I meant with "plastic" two components epoxy glue like JB Weld etc.
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2019, 08:46 AM   #24
ryanheacox
Senior Member
 
ryanheacox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Northwest CT
Posts: 1,033
Default Re: Cracked Block

The Car Talk guys used to mention a product called Porter Seal when discussing crack repairs. Anyone ever use it/ is it still made?
ryanheacox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2019, 11:17 AM   #25
History
Senior Member
 
History's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NC Mountains
Posts: 456
Default Re: Cracked Block

I called yesterday for pricing on the lock-n-stitch product and was told it would be $250-$300 just for the kit. I may take it and get it welded considering that price. Like I said, the engine is a mystery at this point that may be worn out. It sounds like it's going to come apart but after I cleaned the spark plugs it sounds like a new engine.

My crack looks exactly like the one posted by j and m machine except mine was not as spread open. Mine was hard to see and was only seeping but same shape and spot. I'm in no hurry so I'll think on it for awhile and decide. I'm not trying to be cheap but I do want it FIXED/REPAIRED the cheapest I can get by with.
History is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2019, 04:17 PM   #26
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 868
Default Re: Cracked Block

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Good evening,

"Stiching" is not possible within the tunnel-shaped valve chamber. -

Today I've milled a 1/4" wide and 1/5" deep V-suture along the crack, and tomorrow a friend dentist drills the crack at the ends with 1/24 " very deep.

Then the engine is going to a specialized welding company on Monday.

I will report.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1010313.jpg (84.6 KB, 127 views)
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2019, 08:58 AM   #27
J and M Machine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 40 Mt.Vickery Rd. Southborough,MA 508-460-0733
Posts: 318
Default Re: Cracked Block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Good evening,

"Stiching" is not possible within the tunnel-shaped valve chamber. -

Today I've milled a 1/4" wide and 1/5" deep V-suture along the crack, and tomorrow a friend dentist drills the crack at the ends with 1/24 " very deep.

Then the engine is going to a specialized welding company on Monday.

I will report.
I guess you didn't see the pictures I had posted to you regarding crack in same area. it is repairable if you could find someone in Germany to do so.
I hope they know how to preheat the block and use proper welding material?
If not done properly you will have a bigger crack than what you've started with.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4389.JPG (54.2 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4296.JPG (50.2 KB, 69 views)
J and M Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2019, 10:10 AM   #28
Terry, NJ
Senior Member
 
Terry, NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucks Co, Pa
Posts: 3,448
Default Re: Cracked Block

Halo Werner! Wie Gehts? Tell me too! The closest thing to "Sorda" I know, is the contraction "sorta" which is a facetious way of saying "Sort of". I'm sorry about your engine block, but we've been welding or stitching blocks for a long time and we've almost perfected it. 90 Year old Model A blocks are prone towards cracking. There is a possibility that the German G28 blocks do not crack so easily, Also, the Russian GAZ. You might look into importing a Russian GAZ, model B (later engine, same block, 50 pferd starke, HP) These engines were produced up into the 1950s and are available.
Terry
Terry, NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2019, 10:42 PM   #29
History
Senior Member
 
History's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NC Mountains
Posts: 456
Default Re: Cracked Block

Well I took it to a welder and he told me it shouldn't be a problem as he was experienced in repairing cast. I believe he used a mig welder dedicated to flux core use. The Weld looked pretty good and he said he thought he had it. I paid him and took the car back to the shop and put the radiator on, was filling with anti freeze and it was leaking pretty bad. I drained it and took it back this morning. This time we plugged it and tried filling with water to only find it leaking again and again. His last try was with silver and a torch and it didn't work and actually caused a new crack to go laterally above the lower crack.


He did tig it also.

I'm not sure if he just didn't know what he was doing or just bad material to work with. My block may actually be ruined. I may try lock stitch or grind all the mess off and try JB Weld.

I really thought welding it was a safe way to go.

Can you use any screws or small bolts for lock stitching or is there something special about the lock stitch kits and bolts?

Any suggestions other than I told ya so's.
History is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2019, 04:34 AM   #30
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 868
Default Re: Cracked Block

Good morning History, my godness!

History, is your welder a specialist in such large blocks? Have you been told that the ends of the crack need to be drilled thin so it can not to break any further? Was the crack course 1/4" deep and wide milled out?

The welding line must always be very short. 1 inch then 15 minutes rest so that the block is not too hot on spot. Never weld along in one piece.

There is a simple test procedure for hairline cracks, we call it Red/White-Cracktest from the spray can.

I wish you great success!


(My engine is not finished yet from the welding factory.)
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2019, 07:30 AM   #31
History
Senior Member
 
History's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NC Mountains
Posts: 456
Default Re: Cracked Block

Werner, looking from my new perspective, I'd say the welder doesn't know what he's doing, he doesn't have a clue. I would have went with the lock stitch initially but thought the cost too much at the kit being $250 for enough to do a 3 inch crack. Guess that would have been a bargain now.

Not sure what I will do at this point, I have no idea if it can be saved. I explained to the welder that I wouldn't have brought it to him knowing it would eliminate any other options as I'm afraid it has. They do some pretty serious work so I thought I could trust his opinion. I'll deal with them with caution (If I ever deal with them again) with and only simple things (I thought this was simple).

My old welding friend passed away last year or we wouldn't be discussing this. He was very good and understood metal well, he was cautious but competent. I miss him for more reasons than his welding but his welding is missed.
History is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2019, 09:51 AM   #32
jhowes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: upstate NY near Mass border
Posts: 786
Default Re: Cracked Block

I hope you have good luck with your engine. I have one that was cracked but with my eyesight I couldn't be sure where the crack was. Solution, I used an epoxy that is designed for marine use. They apparently repair cracked situations that go under water at times. After smearing the area where the crack was (good prep first) I used the waterglas mentioned above and the engine is saved for a while anyway. Jack
jhowes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2019, 02:26 PM   #33
dumb person
Senior Member
 
dumb person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: South pacific island
Posts: 1,724
Default Re: Cracked Block

Quote:
Originally Posted by History View Post
His last try was with silver and a torch and it didn't work and actually caused a new crack to go laterally above the lower crack.


He did tig it also.

I may try lock stitch or grind all the mess off and try JB Weld.

I really thought welding it was a safe way to go.

Can you use any screws or small bolts for lock stitching or is there something special about the lock stitch kits and bolts?

Any suggestions other than I told ya so's.
Sounds like some lock stitching & JB weld to finish is your next option.
Some lock stitching bolts i've seen online (But never used in real life, but i wouldn't mind seeing them in reality) had a thread profile cut like a saw tooth, except the steep part of the saw tooth pushed back over the trough of the valley of the thread. By using a tap with this same thread profile, the 'bolt' would actually clamp the 2 pieces of metal together to some degree.
Then there's the "drill several holes either side & drive in the purpose made 'key' method.

For what it's worth, i've used regular bolts in minor cracks. But it's not the preferred way. I make do with them for lack of better tooling.
__________________
<Link> This is how we roll<Link>

"I'm Convinced that no one really reads posts anymore; they just fabricate what they think the post says then ramble on about red herrings."--Bob
Outcasts rules of old cars
#1 Fun is imperative, mainstream is overrated
#2 If they think it is impossible, prove them wrong
#3 If the science says it impossible you are not being creative enough.
#4 No shame in recreating something you never had
#5 If it were not for the law & physics you would be unstoppable
dumb person is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2019, 04:21 PM   #34
sphanna
Senior Member
 
sphanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Polk City, Iowa
Posts: 520
Default Re: Cracked Block

Werner: I am very. sorry for the troubles and disappointments you are experiencing your car. You have been getting a lot of help here and I hope you get everything taken care of. You in post #17 asked about caution when lifting your engine if you have to . I am not one of the experienced and proven experts here, but I do not want you to lift the front of the engine when in the car without loosening the rear engine mounts. I would hate to hear that you'd cracked your flywheel housing. You have enough problems as it is. I wish you success and the reclaiming of your joy in your car.
__________________
Steve Hanna, Polk City, IA
sphanna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2019, 09:39 AM   #35
J and M Machine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 40 Mt.Vickery Rd. Southborough,MA 508-460-0733
Posts: 318
Default Re: Cracked Block

Quote:
Originally Posted by History View Post
Werner, looking from my new perspective, I'd say the welder doesn't know what he's doing, he doesn't have a clue. I would have went with the lock stitch initially but thought the cost too much at the kit being $250 for enough to do a 3 inch crack. Guess that would have been a bargain now.

Not sure what I will do at this point, I have no idea if it can be saved. I explained to the welder that I wouldn't have brought it to him knowing it would eliminate any other options as I'm afraid it has. They do some pretty serious work so I thought I could trust his opinion. I'll deal with them with caution (If I ever deal with them again) with and only simple things (I thought this was simple).

My old welding friend passed away last year or we wouldn't be discussing this. He was very good and understood metal well, he was cautious but competent. I miss him for more reasons than his welding but his welding is missed.

This is the reason I posted the pictures. To Both Werner and yourself.
Everyone thinks the blocks are straightforward to weld, only way to do it properly would be to furnace weld it if you chose that route.
The metal stitching with the threaded pins we use is seamless and once done will never split open.
History your block is history as the only way to seal the crack now is to use some form of sealer on inside as well as out.
The rod that he used will surely keep cracking as it isn't same molecular expansion rate and cast iron will crack right next to the welds as you've found out.

http://www.jandm-machine.com/metalStitching.html


If you open this link and notice the second picture where they kept welding the block with nickel rod, it was cracking faster than they could weld it.
We had to cut out the welded area as it was shattered from the heat.
The heat from the weld also make the iron like glass so there's no way to drill and pin it now it has to be removed and a new piece installed.
J and M Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2019, 10:10 AM   #36
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 868
Default Re: Cracked Block

Hallo,

today I got back the welded engine block. I hope thate the seam is tight.

It will take some time, but I will report.

Thank you all for hints!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1100462KR.JPG (213.6 KB, 117 views)
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2019, 11:10 AM   #37
katy
Senior Member
 
katy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,749
Default Re: Cracked Block

Thanks for the update, Do you have a picture of the repair?
__________________
Play it again Sam.
katy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2019, 11:14 PM   #38
whirnot
Senior Member
 
whirnot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bend Or.
Posts: 965
Default Re: Cracked Block

I have a block that was seeping, and after cleaning, could see it had been welded. I just cleaned it up and used JB Weld. Worked fine.
__________________
Bill Worden

1929 Roadster
1929 Briggs Town Sedan
1930 Closed Cab pickup
1951 Ford F1

High Desert Model A's
whirnot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2019, 08:10 AM   #39
Werner
Senior Member
 
Werner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany, near Aachen
Posts: 868
Default Re: Cracked Block

Hallo und guten Tag,

just made some pictures to shows the external work. The pinkish-white discoloration are residues from the final crack-tightness test.

I am currently a little ill, therefore I'l show the next step, when the seam is cleaned.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1100479.jpg (69.3 KB, 111 views)
File Type: jpg P1100476.jpg (81.0 KB, 114 views)
__________________
Beste Gruesse aus Deutschland,
Werner


Ford Model A Roadster, 1928
Citroen 11 CV, 1947
Hercules NSU-Wankel Rotary Engine, 1976 (Canadian version)
Werner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2019, 08:28 AM   #40
mike657894
Senior Member
 
mike657894's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Bay City Michigan
Posts: 1,036
Default Re: Cracked Block

How much care and time did the failed welders take? I once welded a firing pin. You get one zap at a time. That takes patience. Not a lot of heat in one zap. Or a continous second of welding. Im just an amatuer, but one with patience. I would try on a scrap piece first. I might have a wet towel on hand. Have you ever tried to weld body steel or rusty body steel. You get a few seconds before a hole melts. Mentioned else where play dough makes a great heat pull putty.
mike657894 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:51 AM.