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Old 03-04-2019, 04:37 PM   #21
Joe K
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

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Originally Posted by Synchro909 View Post
I believe the grooves are not there for anything to do with lubrication. It is more to do with the way they were made. A strip of the appropriate alloy steel was twisted into a cylinder, ground and hardened. The grooves are a result of the winding/twisting process.
My memory agrees with this - it gives the bearing some "give." Like the bearing rolls on "springs?"

The fit is a bit "loose" IIRC. Like 0.015? The axle shaft actually hold the drum perpendicular to the backing plate as otherwise a fair amount of tilt of the drum would be possible.

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Old 03-04-2019, 04:40 PM   #22
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

Correction! I confused something:

The small rough depth is necessary for plain gliding bearings.

Rolling bearings must not have a rough depth and must always be polished!
Sorry for my shorttime important mistake!
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Old 03-05-2019, 12:33 AM   #23
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

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My memory agrees with this - it gives the bearing some "give." Like the bearing rolls on "springs?"

The fit is a bit "loose" IIRC. Like 0.015? The axle shaft actually hold the drum perpendicular to the backing plate as otherwise a fair amount of tilt of the drum would be possible.

Joe K
While that amy be true, the hubs always wear bell shaped. Must be flex in the system, most likely when cornering or a side load for some other reason.
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:58 AM   #24
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

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While that amy be true, the hubs always wear bell shaped. Must be flex in the system, most likely when cornering or a side load for some other reason.
Wear or stretch? Not that it matters, the correction is the same.

Akin possibly to the principle of "pein straightening?"

Interesting concept.

We learned about that at the Nuclear plant. Repeated isolated peining beyond the elastic limit locally deforms the metal creating compression stress which in transferring to the mass of metal causes an overall "reformation."

We pein straightened a shaft about 4 feet long held between balance wheels (you know those wheels you use to find the "heavy side?") The shaft started out visibly bent with a total offset about 0.025 inches over 4 feet.

Using a pneumatic hammer holding a blunt tool (rounded with no sharp edges) one applies the tool to the "low" side of the shaft as it sits, applying it to what is the "concave" side of the bend. This is kind of counter-intuitive to what you might normally expect - a person with a hammer will apply it at the point of greatest displacement hoping to bend "en-masse" and thereby straighten the shaft.

The tool is run back and forth while "rat-tat-tatting" impacting the surface - and this causes the shaft to locally deform. Not even leaving a surface dent. The shaft because of the localized reformation will "straighten." In fact, the instructors direction to us was to continue beyond straight and leave it bent the "other" way. "Walk it an equal distance off center in the 'other' direction - I need to have a demonstration for the NEXT class to correct." he said.

We ended up "walking" the shaft back and forth a couple of times - the process is THAT fast.

Pein straightening even has the advantage of relieving stress - something about the sonic wave transfer within the metal. A stress someone with a hammer can't help but leave and which can cause cracking.

Anyway, one can see how repeated localized roller pressure beyond the elastic limit might cause "belling" of the mouth of the hub.

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Old 03-05-2019, 12:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

I posted this on another thread not long ago:
"Just to add a side note: the "grooves" in the original rollers, though they may conduct lubricant across the bearing, are not grooves at all. I ran across this in an old New Departure catalog. The rollers are made of wound strip stock. They are deliberately designed that way. They are shock absorbing rollers! When hit with a heavy shock they avoid high contact stress by expanding axially. Replacement bearings are usually solid rollers with much less shock absorbing capability, but cheaper to produce."
I would say the original manufacturer for Ford was Hyatt, not Timken.
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Old 03-05-2019, 05:05 PM   #26
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe K View Post
Wear or stretch? Not that it matters, the correction is the same.

Akin possibly to the principle of "pein straightening?"

Interesting concept.

We learned about that at the Nuclear plant. Repeated isolated peining beyond the elastic limit locally deforms the metal creating compression stress which in transferring to the mass of metal causes an overall "reformation."

We pein straightened a shaft about 4 feet long held between balance wheels (you know those wheels you use to find the "heavy side?") The shaft started out visibly bent with a total offset about 0.025 inches over 4 feet.

Using a pneumatic hammer holding a blunt tool (rounded with no sharp edges) one applies the tool to the "low" side of the shaft as it sits, applying it to what is the "concave" side of the bend. This is kind of counter-intuitive to what you might normally expect - a person with a hammer will apply it at the point of greatest displacement hoping to bend "en-masse" and thereby straighten the shaft.

The tool is run back and forth while "rat-tat-tatting" impacting the surface - and this causes the shaft to locally deform. Not even leaving a surface dent. The shaft because of the localized reformation will "straighten." In fact, the instructors direction to us was to continue beyond straight and leave it bent the "other" way. "Walk it an equal distance off center in the 'other' direction - I need to have a demonstration for the NEXT class to correct." he said.

We ended up "walking" the shaft back and forth a couple of times - the process is THAT fast.

Pein straightening even has the advantage of relieving stress - something about the sonic wave transfer within the metal. A stress someone with a hammer can't help but leave and which can cause cracking.

Anyway, one can see how repeated localized roller pressure beyond the elastic limit might cause "belling" of the mouth of the hub.

Joe K
I've seen piston slap removed in an old motor by using lead shot blasted against the skirts to enlarge them. A set of rings, a hone, a valve job, adjust the bearings and away we go!
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Old 03-05-2019, 05:28 PM   #27
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

Arnold, I worked in an engine recon shop in the 70,s we had a piston expander,it was a set of fingers with a curved end the was driven by a motor and you sat the piston on two rollers and went to town inside the piston with the fingers going up and down flat out,you could usually get about .002,BUt after a while in use the pistons always cracked,
Customers would come in and ask for a set of rings and blow the pistons up.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:10 PM   #28
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

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Arnold, I worked in an engine recon shop in the 70,s we had a piston expander,it was a set of fingers with a curved end the was driven by a motor and you sat the piston on two rollers and went to town inside the piston with the fingers going up and down flat out,you could usually get about .002,BUt after a while in use the pistons always cracked,
Customers would come in and ask for a set of rings and blow the pistons up.
Lawrie
Lawrie, I don't know how much my father expanded those pistons but they were small to start with (Austin A30). We drove the wheels off that car for years till my sister tried sitting on 100 k on a country trip and put a leg out of bed!
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Old 03-06-2019, 09:33 AM   #29
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

The 1930 engine I pulled out of a Vermont farmer's back lot had a sort of mechanical internal spring added to each piston. It sort of "yoked" around the piston pin so they can't come loose. By removing the center lock pin, the expander could be compressed with a pair of vise-grips and withdrawn. They had a fair amount of spring to them - almost like wear your safety glasses and shield lest they squirm out of the vise-grips and hit you in the kisser.

I kept them but more as a conversation piece - I don't think I would use them.

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Old 03-06-2019, 11:55 AM   #30
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

They used to knurl pistons w/special tools to expand them,
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Old 03-06-2019, 04:30 PM   #31
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

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They used to knurl pistons w/special tools to expand them,
I just last week checked the internal condition of a spare engine I have from the US. The pistons in it had been treated that way. I put it back together without changing anything.
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Old 03-07-2019, 04:33 AM   #32
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

LI have a piston expander called a Koetherizer. Invented by Emil Koether in the Early 1930's.
You clean the piston internally by blasting with walnut shells in the right hand chamber of the machine. Then insert the special squeeze bolt through the gudgeon holes, tighten the bolt against its ballrace thrust washer and nut, squeezing it until it has expanded to the size you want across the thrust faces, using a micrometer across them. Up to 0.005 to 0.007 and maybe more can be gained depending on the design and weight of the piston.
Then put the piston, still under compression with the squeeze bolt in place, into the steel shot blasting chamber and blast all around the inside, using the automatic piston rotator mechanism to blast every part at about 100 psi with compressed air and steel shot.
This relieves the compression stresses in the aluminium alloy, so the piston holds the new shape and size after the squeeze is removed.
The original operator who did many thousands of piston still comes to relieve new modern racing pistons for friends who race modern cars, for better longevity at high revs. Mainly as a favour to old friends.
There was a category “piston expansion and automotive” in the NZ classified ads years ago in the newspapers, that dealt with Koetherizing and “micropeining” using tiny swinging hammers inside pistons. Koetherizing was said to be more gentle and kinder to piston.
SAJ in NZ
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Old 03-08-2019, 02:03 PM   #33
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

In answer to BUD, #25 responder, I was told by a retiree friend, now deceased, who was an automotive engineer for General Motors, and ran a Hyatt bearing factory, that it was part of the General Motors family, so I doubt if it was an original equipment bearing supplier to Ford.
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Old 03-08-2019, 04:01 PM   #34
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

According to Wikipedia: "Henry Ford became a major customer.[2] By 1916 the Ford Motor Company had almost half the market for new automobiles, selling 577,036 vehicles that year"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_...earing_Company
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Old 03-08-2019, 04:16 PM   #35
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Default Re: Rear axle housing repair sleeves not hardened

The Hyatt connection may be fact. The unique spring-based roller bearing may in fact be Hyatt.

Its been a while since my last rear hub/sleeve experience - and I can't say I remember ANY markings on the hub bearing.

That said, the remainder of the bearing for the rear end - including the double race bearing at the pinion seat - were DEFINITELY originally Timken in my rear end experience. Timken specialized in conical roller "cup & cage" bearings - as opposed to Torrington - who specialized in "needle" bearings.

Which brings to the question about the drive shaft forward needle bearing? Another one out of mind.

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